Irish Academies "Mickey measuring" Thread

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

My Academy is better than your academy. My da would BATTUR your da (In a focking heartbeat) Not sure my mickey is any bigger than yours and don't want to see or show any proof.

And just because Conor Murray was behind some randomer at u20 level does not make back boning the u20 team a waste of time.

[Geordie]

We had 11 academy graduates in our squad for the Worcester game at the weekend...beat that!!  

 

[SecretFly]

Beating sauce with academy players is a doddle.

[ME-109]

Everyone knows the U20's is just a glorified vehicle for the pampered D4 schoolboys with the odd token Pres/Christians/St Munchins Daddys boy thrown in and the token RBAI for inclusivity.

It is a vehicle for ensuring the Ivor's of this world have their egos massaged (amongst other things) by the rugger hugging "ladies" (I use that word advisedly) of South County Dublin.

I would sincerely hope Jen that you are not of that persuasion...

[HammerofThunor]

We had 11 academy graduates in our squad for the Worcester game at the weekend...beat that!!  

 

Sorry for the English invasion but Quins had:

Starting - Marler, Buchanan, Collier, Robson, Robshaw, Guest, Monye, Casson, Smith and Brown (10)

Used Subs - Walker, Sinkler, Merrick and Wallace (4)

So 14 in the squad.  

Not sure about Lambert

[Sin é]

We had 11 academy graduates in our squad for the Worcester game at the weekend...beat that!!  

 

5 of the 6 front row in the Munster v Leinster game were all from Munster. Beat that!

[Don Alfonso]

All the flyhalves, inside centres, opensides and fullbacks were from Leinster, though.

[SecretFly]

Ouch!

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Didn't think anyone would take this seriously.

Here is the oldest Leinster Academy squad online (2008/9) and where they are now. Only Dave Kearney in Leinster but the vast majority still playing pro rugby

Burke Flynn     Ail Clontarf (Played in pro d2 and Eng Championship and a season at Connacht)
Foley     Dunno
Hagan     London Irish
Harris Wright     Connacht
Jones     Munster
D Kearney     Leinster
McInerney     Ospreys (Retired due to injury)
McKinley     Injury (ahead of Ian Madigan 2 years ago)
Monahan     Gloucester
Moore     Connacht
Morris     Leicester
Murphy     Brumbies
O'Donohoe     Connacht
Power     Dunno
Ryan     Injury (was a really promising openside)
Sexton     Melbourne Rebels
Sheridan     London Irish
Sheriff     Saracens
Sweeney     Ail (Captain of Mary's last year)
Tonetti     Connacht

[Don Alfonso]

Meh. For a multitude of ephemeral, impossible-to-qualify reasons (which I won't go into here) the Ulster Academy is the best.

[whocares]

Everyone knows the U20's is just a glorified vehicle for the pampered D4 schoolboys with the odd token Pres/Christians/St Munchins Daddys boy thrown in and the token RBAI for inclusivity.

It is a vehicle for ensuring  the Ivor's of this world have their egos massaged (amongst other things) by the rugger hugging "ladies" (I use that word advisedly) of South County Dublin.

I would sincerely hope Jen that you are not of that persuasion...

very insightful...
what does RBAI stands for? and ME-109 while we are discussing acronyms ?

[Sin é]

All the flyhalves, inside centres, opensides and fullbacks were from Leinster, though.

Munster are the only province that have produced any decent scrumhalves in the last 15 years!

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Meh. For a multitude of ephemeral, impossible-to-qualify reasons (which I won't go into here) the Ulster Academy is the best.

Hard to fault that logic

I'm with the Don

[lostinwales]

Everyone knows the U20's is just a glorified vehicle for the pampered D4 schoolboys with the odd token Pres/Christians/St Munchins Daddys boy thrown in and the token RBAI for inclusivity.

It is a vehicle for ensuring  the Ivor's of this world have their egos massaged (amongst other things) by the rugger hugging "ladies" (I use that word advisedly) of South County Dublin.

I would sincerely hope Jen that you are not of that persuasion...

very insightful...
what does RBAI stands for? and ME-109 while we are discussing acronyms ?

ME-109 - Messerschmitt.....

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

He's trying to imply that Joe Schmidt is a messer.

[Don Alfonso]

Everyone knows the U20's is just a glorified vehicle for the pampered D4 schoolboys with the odd token Pres/Christians/St Munchins Daddys boy thrown in and the token RBAI for inclusivity.

It is a vehicle for ensuring  the Ivor's of this world have their egos massaged (amongst other things) by the rugger hugging "ladies" (I use that word advisedly) of South County Dublin.

I would sincerely hope Jen that you are not of that persuasion...

very insightful...
what does RBAI stands for? and ME-109 while we are discussing acronyms ?

Royal Belfast Academical Institution.

Whose last noteworthy player was Ryan Caldwell. Any word on how he's going, actually?

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Injuredly

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

I would sincerely hope Jen that you are not of that persuasion...

Doesn't take a lot to persuade me.... Ask yer ma.

[GunsGerms]

All the flyhalves, inside centres, opensides and fullbacks were from Leinster, though.

Munster are the only province that have produced any decent scrumhalves in the last 15 years!

Yeah but Peter Stringer is past it now.

[Sin é]

U20s side who played the first game in the reopened Thomond Park in Sept. 2008.

Munster:
R O'Mahony (Garryowen); Munster
F Ahearne (UL Bohs),
D Barnes (UCC RFC), Falcons
M Kelleher(Richmond) ,
M Doyle (UL Bohs);
C Murray (Garryowen), Munster, Ireland, B&I Lions.
C Nolan (Cork Con);
G Duffy (UCC RFC),
D Toomey (UL Bohs),
F Ross (UL Bohs);
B Hayes (CBC Cork); Aurillac
D Frawley (UL Bohs);
D O'Callaghan (UCC RFC), Munster.
B O'Hara (UL Bohs), Munster
P O'Mahony (Cork Con). Munster, Ireland
Replacements (from):
P Hogan (UL Bohs),
J Bransfield (UCC RFC),
B O'Callaghan (UCC RFC),
S Rennison (UL Bohs),
J Ryan(UCC RFC),
K O'Dwyer (UCC RFC),
D Harris (UL Bohs),
A Joyce (UCC RFC),
I Cross (UL Bohs),
O Mulrooney (UCC RFC).


This is the Ulster team they played against. Munster won by 3-0 - penalty taken by Conor Murray!

ULSTER

15. Ricky Andrew (Dungannon), 14. David McIlwaine (QUB), 13. Johnny Shiels (QUB), 12. David Funston (City of Derry), 11. Kyle Kirkpatrick (Ards), 10. Peter Henderson (City of Derry), 9. Andrew Semple (City of Derry), 1. Michael Cromie (Banbridge), 2. David McGregor (Ballynahinch), 3. Alan Whitten (Instonians), 4. Mark McDowell (Instonians), 5. Patrick McGowan (QUB), 6. Gareth Hooks (QUB), 7. Sean Dougall (Malone), 8. Tom Patton (City of Derry)

Replacements:
16. Paul Ross (Banbridge), 17. Adam Macklin (Harlequins), 18. Richard McNeely (Coleraine), 19. Fiyin Oliysiade (Harlequins), 20. Sam Bell (Dublin University), 21.
Richard Reaney (Armagh), 22. Andrew Bryans (Malone)

[Sin é]

All the flyhalves, inside centres, opensides and fullbacks were from Leinster, though.

Munster are the only province that have produced any decent scrumhalves in the last 15 years!

Yeah but Peter Stringer is past it now.

Past it? The British media are raving about him at the moment.

[GunsGerms]

All the flyhalves, inside centres, opensides and fullbacks were from Leinster, though.

Munster are the only province that have produced any decent scrumhalves in the last 15 years!

Yeah but Peter Stringer is past it now.

Past it? The British media are raving about him at the moment.

Good to hear. Best SH to ever play for Ireland IMO.

[whocares]

anyone know this fella james hart, irish scrum half that plays for grenoble. scored a try and a couple of penalties last weekend in their away win againt the mighty racing.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

anyone know this fella james hart, irish scrum half that plays for grenoble. scored a try and a couple of penalties last weekend in their away win againt the mighty racing.

Didn't make the Leinster Academy.......

[Sin é]

anyone know this fella james hart, irish scrum half that plays for grenoble. scored a try and a couple of penalties last weekend in their away win againt the mighty racing.

Article about him in the Irish Times today.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/james-hart-s-wáork-ethic-at-grenoble-opens-alternative-route-to-success-1.1553149

[Golden]

He looked like a decent player in the racing game. Could see a call up to the Wolfhounds during the 6 nations to get him to tied to Ireland.

[doctor_grey]

Not sure my mickey is any bigger than yours....

Clearly not!

.........and don't want to see or show any proof.........

Good idea.

[SecretFly]

Very improper attitudes getting raised affectedly!

[GunsGerms]

He looked like a decent player in the racing game. Could see a call up to the Wolfhounds during the 6 nations to get him to tied to Ireland.

He has a french mum doesnt he? Probably why he is a scrum half yet can kick goals.

[Golden]

He looked like a decent player in the racing game. Could see a call up to the Wolfhounds during the 6 nations to get him to tied to Ireland.

He has a french mum doesnt he? Probably why he is a scrum half yet can kick goals.

Ye, but in the article Sin put up Jackman says his intentions are to play for Ireland.

[SecretFly]

The best scrum half in the world (according to Penney) should just stand aside and let the new king straight in The world doesn't have enough time any more for the slowly slowly wolfhound approach! Youth and divilment is where the new coalface is at International level.

[profitius]

How many of todays young players missed out on U20 selection or were on the fringes of the U20 squad? I know a few Munster lads like Sherry, James Cronin, Murray etc were not high profile U20 players.

[Sin é]

Its interesting to look at the number of caps they got actually at U20s. For instance:
Peter O'Mahony 8, Dominic Ryan 20, Rhys Ruddock 16.
Conor Murray 8, Matt Healy 9, Luke McGrath 14, Kieran Marmion 14.
Tommy O'Donnell 3, TJ Anderson 5.
Jason Harris-Wright 10, Mike Sherry 0.

[ME-109]

Munster player development has always been club based and through the AIL. UCC were comprised of mostly Munster academy players until they changed the rules a few years ago. Cant speak for the limerick clubs but for example when Munster beat Australia at the end of the game there were something like 12 Cork Con players on the pitch. Like I said the U20 are at best the ultimate for a good schools player.

[Standulstermen]

Just on something Geoff mentioned I sincerely hope we see a bit more of Rory scholes this season. He was up there with Daly as our best back IMO for the last JRWC. If he is able to come through I suspect we might have more chance of seeing Gilroy at 15 too. Similarly it might give us a chance to bring Nelson through on wing or centre.

He has never inspired confidence at 15 IMO. Clearly has talent but maybe wing would be a better starting option atm

[Sin é]

Do you think that is the reason that the Munster players are not picked then - the Ireland management know that they will be brought through in the AIL anyway, whereas there are fewer opportunities in the AIL in the other provinces (well, back 2-3 years ago, there was usually 8 or 9 Munster clubs and maybe 1 or 2 Dublin clubs in the top division of the AIL).

I certainly couldn't understand why Murray wasn't starting at the time (he has only 4 starts out of the 8 in the U20s). Matt Healy doesn't even play SH any more, he is on the wing.

[Standulstermen]

I recall back on the old forum watching Duncan Williams play when he was hyped down in Munster (it was just a magners league game). I watched the game and he replaced by a young Conor Murray whom I said at the time looked a much better prospect and I was derided at the time.

[ME-109]

I think that traditionally the Leinster school system has been stronger up to u20 level which is why the tendency has been to pick them. Rugby is not a schoolboys game though and the development of players through the AIL has been very important for Munster.

Put it this way 80 mins playing against Young Munster in Clifford Park would quickly sort out the men from the boys.

[Sin é]

That might have been some Cork (Cork Con) v Limerick (Garryowen) faction fighting!

[ME-109]

Williams was always seen as a better prospect back in the day and was ahead of Murray. He hasn't exactly had much luck injury wise and I thought was finished last year. However he is playing well t the moment and while way beh'ind Murray is a good option to have

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Very interesting article from the mole during the summer.

http://dementedmole.com/2013/09/06/transferring-talent/#more-3701

Very Leinster centric. but it goes back through the Ireland u20s/21s teams for a where are they now.

I found it great. but I like stats and I am a Leinster fan

[Notch]

I've liked the look of Martin Moore this season. Not sure if that is off topic.

Ulster are doing well but struggling to match the number of quality backs coming through with similar success in the forwards- we definitely need to improve in the tight five. We've got a long list of backs who have come through/are waiting in the wings but only really Paddy McAllister and Iain Henderson in the proven successes up front recently.

[Don Alfonso]

Very interesting article from the mole during the summer.

http://dementedmole.com/2013/09/06/transferring-talent/#more-3701

Very Leinster centric. but it goes back through the Ireland u20s/21s teams for a where are they now.

I found it great. but I like stats and I am a Leinster fan

Read that when it was published - really interesting. Astonishing amount of detail.

Interested to know, Jen - what conclusions do you draw from it? What does it all actually mean or suggest to you?

[profitius]

I think that traditionally the Leinster school system has been stronger up to u20 level which is why the tendency has been to pick them. Rugby is not a schoolboys game though and the development of players through the AIL has been very important for Munster.

Put it this way 80 mins playing against Young Munster in Clifford Park would quickly sort out the men from the boys.

The AIL does seem to be getting stronger again which is good news for player development.

[GunsGerms]

I recall back on the old forum watching Duncan Williams play when he was hyped down in Munster (it was just a magners league game). I watched the game and he replaced by a young Conor Murray whom I said at the time looked a much better prospect and I was derided at the time.

Not surprised. Murray until recently has been really quite poor IMO.

[Sin é]

I recall back on the old forum watching Duncan Williams play when he was hyped down in Munster (it was just a magners league game). I watched the game and he replaced by a young Conor Murray whom I said at the time looked a much better prospect and I was derided at the time.

Not surprised. Murray until recently has been really quite poor IMO.

Come off it - Murray has been outstanding for Munster since he came onto the scene. He got his chance and took it very well. Don't forget he was the starting SH in his first season when Munster won the Rabo Pro 12. He was outstanding in the final.

[GunsGerms]

Im not a fan, mostly because he has a bad pass (painfully slow service) and can be a poor decision maker but glad to admit he has improved.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Very interesting article from the mole during the summer.

http://dementedmole.com/2013/09/06/transferring-talent/#more-3701

Very Leinster centric. but it goes back through the Ireland u20s/21s teams for a where are they now.

I found it great. but I like stats and I am a Leinster fan

Read that when it was published - really interesting. Astonishing amount of detail.

Interested to know, Jen - what conclusions do you draw from it? What does it all actually mean or suggest to you?

It means or suggests sh1tloads. It's a very in depth article.

You are probably trying to get me to say that our older players coming to the end of their careers spells the end of our golden age.

There is probably some truth in that.

6 trophies in 6 seasons (3 x HC 2 x Rabo and an Amlin) while finishing in the top 2 of the league all but one of those years (we were 3rd)

That's fairly hard to sustain. Personally I'm hoping that it is a short and shallow decline, no one really knows.

Our setup in Ireland means that the top players get cosseted, which prolongs their careers.

Contrast this with the Welsh, who have lost a lot of their top players at regional level. They get more development time for younger players (who get thrown in at the deep end)

A happy medium between these 2 is hard to achieve. I reckon we have done a reasonably good job of bringing younger players through, but there will always be a few gaps in certain positions.

Add to that the fact that you can't just develop an O'Driscoll/Sexton/Nacewa just because you feel like it.

A lot will hinge on this Ospreys game for us. Lose that and we are under the cosh. Win it and we are in a decent place (for now)

You are always only as good as your last game. How many times have we seen people's opinions of a team change utterly on the back of a single game. Makes no sense really, but it happens time and again on this and every other forum.

[Don Alfonso]

Not trying to get you to say anything. Banter's banter, but there was just so much in that article, I didn't know what it boiled down to.

Might read it again.

No-one wins anything with a team of kids, though.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Not trying to get you to say anything. Banter's banter, but there was just so much in that article, I didn't know what it boiled down to.

That's it really. It doesn't boil down to anything, but gives you all the facts and figures to develop your own theories.

I gave you some of mine.

What it does suggest is that you CAN'T boil stuff down to a paragraph. Because team sport is a very complex proposition.

You can't win anything with kids. But you can't win anything with an over the hill team either.

You can take the Toulon approach and buy a team of players in (and just past) their prime. Keep adding players until you win something.

Or you can try to develop it in house. Cheaper but MUCH more difficult.

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