Welsh Scrumhalf options

Thought this needed its own topic, away from the flyhalf discussions.

So Wales have a bunch of up coming scrumhalves, all of who are around a similar level of ability.

1. Mike Phillips
Still first choice, integral to Wales' game plan, when on form he is excellent, when hes not he can slow the game down and make the wrong decisions.

2. Lloyd Williams
I think he has been quite inconsistent these past couple of seasons, he can do something really well and next minute undo all of that and do something awful. Still a solid second choice in my opinion.

3. Tavis Knoyle
Not seen how he has been getting on in Glaws, so cant really comment.

4. Gareth Davies
Looks to be on fire at the moment for the Scarlets.

5. Jonny Evans
Had a lot of hype and praise from Dragons fans last season, will he kick on this season?

6. Rhodri Williams
Had a great U20 world cup, needs to push Davies at the Scarlets.

7. Rhys Webb
Needs to find his form from a couple of seasons ago. Currently out injured.

8. R Rees - Seems to be starting for the Dragons this season, good sniping try against Embra and a nice 40m break - a different option to Phillips

Johnny Evans should've gone on the Japan tour - great prospect

The competition below Phillips is great, these guys should all be pushing very hard to get recognition at their regions to hopefully make Wales honours.

Tom Habberfield is another lad who will be in the equation when fit. He has an ankle injury and is out for another month last I heard from the Ospreys. He looked superb in the U20s RWC last year, maybe year before (???) and had a few good games for the Ospreys

I get the feeling Rees wont be selected for Wales again, he seems to have annoyed the management after his ban for "making contact with eyes".

Which was pathetic really. One of the most over blown citings ever

Agreed, and I liked Rees, but he was more of an impact player anyway, he could inject a lot of pace into the game in the final 20 minutes, but couldn't do it for a full match.

I don't think Rees is an intelligent enough player at International level. He is quick around the base good pass, but any decent backrow would limit the hell out of his game and he doesn't have any back up....

What I like about the new youngsters, Tom Habberfield, Gareth Davies, Rhodri Williams, Jonny Evans, is their all round skill levels are very high. They are all quick, fast passing, good at kicking strong defenders and can read and run a game at the level they play at.

Give those boys time and they will be good enough to step up.

Phillips still holds the shirt for me but the others need some gametime.

Ll Williams has never impressed me though reports saying he has started season well.

Davies has looked really sharp and I would give him the nod over Williams at the moment.

Not taking Evans to Japan was huge mistake IMO and the battle between him and Rees at the Dragons this season could be a good one.

I think the 3 main contenders will be Phillips, Williams and Davies with the others fighting away and waiting for any unfortunate injuries.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Phillips still holds the shirt for me but the others need some gametime.

Ll Williams has never impressed me though reports saying he has started season well.

Davies has looked really sharp and I would give him the nod over Williams at the moment.

Not taking Evans to Japan was huge mistake IMO and the battle between him and Rees at the Dragons this season could be a good one.

I think the 3 main contenders will be Phillips, Williams and Davies with the others fighting away and waiting for any unfortunate injuries.

Not a bad situation to be in... I hope Gareth Davies can make the step up. It is a big leap for a young scrumhalf to make but he has been in great for at the Scarlets.

Maes,

Thing is we will never know if they can make the step until they are given that chance, some may come up short others will take to it like proverbial duck to water.

Its that thin line again between experimenting but still winning games and building momentum/confidence.

When have we ever been scared of putting youngsters in at the deep end ? Better sooner than later.

Aslong as we don't ridiculously over hype them like the English media then they should be fine

Its not a case of just putting them in Munkian it has to be done correctly. In the past we have tended to just chuck a load in against the so called minnows on a Friday night during the AIs and have (at times) come a cropper.

Biggar was the prime example of this for a few seasons, he never got a start behind the full pack and was normally chucked in with a weakened side on a Friday night.

Over these next 4 (wish we would just stick to 3) AI games I think we need to look at a few positions such as No3 and No9 and introduce players in those positions but with the backing of a full strength team around them.

Course, not suggesting we field a team of uncapped players.

I'm not sure we really need to rush in any young players either, the big 3 rarely throw in 18/19 year olds with limited professional rugby experience. Even Ben Smith is in his late 20s.

The Big 3 have an awful lot more strength in depth than us

Personally speaking I think Phillips time has come, the Lions first test showed that. Also, I think Knoyle has a poor pass, is a poor kicker, isn't as strong as Phillips in contact and really doesn't come across as a smart player. I personally wouldn't have Tavis anywhere near the Wales squad and I still struggle to work out how he has that many Scarlets/Wales caps.

Richie Rees is a good option. I don't know why he was ever out of favour at the Blues or with Wales. He's experienced (probably more than the others bar Phillips?) and is playing very well so far.

Lloyd Williams has also started well and it will be interesting to see whether he can keep it up, hopefully he doesn't suffer another dip in form. At the moment his running game and passing is excellent. I see it has a two-horse race between him and Rees.

Gareth Davies is finally getting some recognition, deservedly so. IMO, the closest player to Phillips. Faster, just as strong and a superb pass. So far he's played well but he is a little bit greedy, and someone needs to tell him. But playing as well as he is, I believe he would make a very good impact player for Wales.

Jonny Evans was one of the form No.9's last season but didn't get a look in. This was a terrible call because our other 9's were not playing very well at all. Right now he may be just slightly behind Rees. At least the Dregs have two good options for scrum half though.

Rhodri Williams, Rhys Webb (injured) and Martin Roberts probably won't get a look in for a while. Perhaps in Roberts' case never again. He was a good player when he got his chance, definitely better than Knoyle. Tom Habberfield is another one that looks very promising but he's another one of the O's No.9's that is out injured.

I still think Phillips has a role to play if we want that style of game plan but when that plan doesn't work we need other options and a different style of No9

bedfordwelsh wrote:I still think Phillips has a role to play if we want that style of game plan but when that plan doesn't work we need other options and a different style of No9

Gatland doesn't do 'Plan B'.

welsh scrumhalf options are mike phillips, dwayne peel, tom habberfield, richie rees, aled davies, gareth davies, rhodri williams, connor lloyd, martin roberts, rhys webb, rhodri davies, wayne evans, tom grabham, tom isaacs, lloyd williams, lewis jones, alex walker, tavis knoyle and others

Yes...we know.. the idea is to discuss who are the best options and why.

Is my Granny when of those 'others', international?

Richie Rees will never play for Wales again, just like Dwayne Peel. Sad, but that's the way it is. Also, talking of capping players who are 4th/5th in line for the shirt is meaningless; there's no point having 10 players with a few caps come the World Cup. This is the time to give Tavis, Lloyd and maybe one more the opportunity to really push Phillips up to the World Cup. If one of those, probably Tavis, is deemed expendable, then an opportunity arises for Gareth Davies or Jonny Evans. Otherwise, what's the point: if Phillips gets injured in the World Cup we need someone dependable, and the only way of doing that is by giving a few players as many caps as possible, not loads of players a few.

I'd also say Gatland has shown his colours thus far and is highly unlikely to change. Lloyd Williams and Tavis Knoyle seem the preferred options. They're familiar with the squad, know the routines; from a purely logistical and efficient point of view, which I'm sure Gatland considers, 24 months out from the World Cup I cannot see him risking 'blooding' anyone else. Gareth Davies has been in and around the squad, and his talent dictates he should be involved. Barring a dramatic loss of form from the Tavis and Lloyd, and Phillips' body/mind giving in before the WC, I can't see an opportunity for the likes of Rhys Webb and Evans, and there is no chance of Rees getting a recall, however unjust that may be. Post-WC will be the time for Rhodri Williams, Patchell and the rest of the current age grade lads to kick on and challenge the incumbents in their position.

Has Tavis Knoyle really got more caps and International experience than Rees ? Thats scary

miaow wrote:Is my Granny when of those 'others', international?

Richie Rees will never play for Wales again, just like Dwayne Peel. Sad, but that's the way it is. Also, talking of capping players who are 4th/5th in line for the shirt is meaningless; there's no point having 10 players with a few caps come the World Cup. This is the time to give Tavis, Lloyd and maybe one more the opportunity to really push Phillips up to the World Cup. If one of those, probably Tavis, is deemed expendable, then an opportunity arises for Gareth Davies or Jonny Evans. Otherwise, what's the point: if Phillips gets injured in the World Cup we need someone dependable, and the only way of doing that is by giving a few players as many caps as possible, not loads of players a few.

I'd also say Gatland has shown his colours thus far and is highly unlikely to change. Lloyd Williams and Tavis Knoyle seem the preferred options. They're familiar with the squad, know the routines; from a purely logistical and efficient point of view, which I'm sure Gatland considers, 24 months out from the World Cup I cannot see him risking 'blooding' anyone else. Gareth Davies has been in and around the squad, and his talent dictates he should be involved. Barring a dramatic loss of form from the Tavis and Lloyd, and Phillips' body/mind giving in before the WC, I can't see an opportunity for the likes of Rhys Webb and Evans, and there is no chance of Rees getting a recall, however unjust that may be. Post-WC will be the time for Rhodri Williams, Patchell and the rest of the current age grade lads to kick on and challenge the incumbents in their position.

It is a good situation to be in, having several tiers of players for filling a hierarchy towards being the test team scrumhalf

You could equally interpret it as worrying that we have so little Test quality standing out from the masses of options we have.

miaow wrote:You could equally interpret it as worrying that we have so little Test quality standing out from the masses of options we have.

Compared to who?

Phillips when on form has set the bar. Other international scrum halves...(that's the point isn't it, we don't have proven depth at 9)?

miaow wrote:Phillips when on form has set the bar. Other international scrum halves...(that's the point isn't it, we don't have proven depth at 9)?

Neither do most sides.

Picking up just the Home Nations, Ireland have Reddan, O'Leary, Boss, and Murray. England have Dickson, Youngs, and Care. Scotland have Laidlaw, and had Blair, Lawson, and Cusiter until recent retirement.

Neither of Knoyle nor Williams are as proven, and therefore reliable, as those above, which is my point. It's not about giving 5 scrum halves the chance, it's about giving Knoyle or Williams or whoever Gatland chooses those 5-10 starts in high intensity Tests between now and the World Cup so that they are prepared for Phillips' retirement or injury in the group stage.

What did Rees actually do? If he continues his early form all season then would be hard to ignore especially as he's playing in Wales

Seems to me we are spoilt for choice. It wasn't so long ago (2008?) we were capping a journeyman like Warren Fury.
Gareth Davies seems the outstanding candidate as Phillips' successor to me.

bedfordwelsh wrote:What did Rees actually do?  If he continues his early form all season then would be hard to ignore especially as he's playing in Wales

Never really transferred his club form to Test level. Much like Aled Brew. Given few opportunities, but where the likes of North and Cuthbert have swam, these boys sank; let's not forget it took three years for Biggar to receive another call up after the draw against Fiji! Rees was admittedly fairly average when in red. He just seems one of these players who I'd put in the Fenby-Fussell type bracket of being effective and decent Rabo players who simply will not cut it long term at the top level. His age is also against him. Wrong perhaps in a meritocracy, but it seems to be the reality with Gatland that Rees is simply not part of the Welsh plan.

miaow wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:What did Rees actually do?  If he continues his early form all season then would be hard to ignore especially as he's playing in Wales

Never really transferred his club form to Test level. Much like Aled Brew. Given few opportunities, but where the likes of North and Cuthbert have swam, these boys sank; let's not forget it took three years for Biggar to receive another call up after the draw against Fiji! Rees was admittedly fairly average when in red. He just seems one of these players who I'd put in the Fenby-Fussell type bracket of being effective and decent Rabo players who simply will not cut it long term at the top level. His age is also against him. Wrong perhaps in a meritocracy, but it seems to be the reality with Gatland that Rees is simply not part of the Welsh plan.

Miaow,

I agree with you on his previous form, though he looks sharp at the moment but I am sure I have read that he upset Gatland and Co somehow, so thats what meant by what did he do?

international197 wrote:welsh scrumhalf options are mike phillips, dwayne peel, tom habberfield, richie rees, aled davies, gareth davies, rhodri williams, connor lloyd, martin roberts, rhys webb, rhodri davies, wayne evans, tom grabham, tom isaacs, lloyd williams, lewis jones, alex walker, tavis knoyle and others

How could you leave off Warren Fury?

bedfordwelsh wrote:

miaow wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:What did Rees actually do?  If he continues his early form all season then would be hard to ignore especially as he's playing in Wales

Never really transferred his club form to Test level. Much like Aled Brew. Given few opportunities, but where the likes of North and Cuthbert have swam, these boys sank; let's not forget it took three years for Biggar to receive another call up after the draw against Fiji! Rees was admittedly fairly average when in red. He just seems one of these players who I'd put in the Fenby-Fussell type bracket of being effective and decent Rabo players who simply will not cut it long term at the top level. His age is also against him. Wrong perhaps in a meritocracy, but it seems to be the reality with Gatland that Rees is simply not part of the Welsh plan.

Miaow,

I agree with you on his previous form, though he looks sharp at the moment but I am sure I have read that he upset Gatland and Co somehow, so thats what meant by what did he do?

At some point in the 2010/2011 Heineken Cup he made "contact with the eyes" during a scrap with Northampton see here http://www.rugbydump.com/2011/01/1771/richie-rees-banned-for-12-weeks-after-contact-with-dylan-hartleys-eyes

There wasn't much in it, the ban was pretty harsh. But he never seemed to feature for the Blues again after that, nor was considered for Wales.

IronMike wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

miaow wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:What did Rees actually do?  If he continues his early form all season then would be hard to ignore especially as he's playing in Wales

Never really transferred his club form to Test level. Much like Aled Brew. Given few opportunities, but where the likes of North and Cuthbert have swam, these boys sank; let's not forget it took three years for Biggar to receive another call up after the draw against Fiji! Rees was admittedly fairly average when in red. He just seems one of these players who I'd put in the Fenby-Fussell type bracket of being effective and decent Rabo players who simply will not cut it long term at the top level. His age is also against him. Wrong perhaps in a meritocracy, but it seems to be the reality with Gatland that Rees is simply not part of the Welsh plan.

Miaow,

I agree with you on his previous form, though he looks sharp at the moment but I am sure I have read that he upset Gatland and Co somehow, so thats what meant by what did he do?

At some point in the 2010/2011 Heineken Cup he made "contact with the eyes" during a scrap with Northampton see here http://www.rugbydump.com/2011/01/1771/richie-rees-banned-for-12-weeks-after-contact-with-dylan-hartleys-eyes

There wasn't much in it, the ban was pretty harsh. But he never seemed to feature for the Blues again after that, nor was considered for Wales.

If you remember it was actually after the Blues had cited Dylan Hartley for gouging only for the hearing to go the other way when Saints managed to find a photo of a tackle where Richie Rees's hand was on Hartley's face.

It was an appalling hearing, the video evidence against Hartley didn't stand up, despite numerous players from the blues stating Hartley's illegal activity's in the rucks.

But Although Rees was accused and banned for a decent period for "contact with the face", I do not think that lead to him being dropped by Wales or the Blues.

Rees is a very limited player. He can clear quick ball and make the odd break but he has never showed the game management or intelligence levels required of an international or even HEC standard nine.

Lloyd Williams was playing better rugby when he became first choice over Rees, Tavis Knoyle was also playing great rugby, they both deserved selection ahead of Rees at regional and then obviously National level too.

Ah cheers boys, I knew I had read something that some say contributed to him not being selected.

It's absolute rubbish. He doesn't get selected because he isn't good enough. If I were a Dragons fan I would start questioning why Evans is being overlooked as a starter...?

Maes,

He's looked pretty good at th moment, good enough for Wales? who knows time will tell.

Ll Williams has never impresed me though he himself has shown good early season form as has G Davies.

Most have said what a missed opportunity it was by not taking Evans to Japan.

I don't think that Lloyd Williams is a spectacular player but I do rate him and a number of others above Richie Rees.

Wales need to find the next man in line, there is a great bunch pushing for it.

I see the future coming from lads like Rhodri Williams or Tom Habberfield.

I am happy that they will have time and les pressure to succede early in their careers and can hopefully be in contention when they are mature enough to command a cap.

Richie Rees may be the sort of player that is needed in the post Phillips era. We all get excited by flashy sniping type of scrum half, but our game plan is build around a solid and dogged scrum half (a bit like we all want a flash flyhalf but we actually need a steady one).

bedfordwelsh wrote:

miaow wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:What did Rees actually do?  If he continues his early form all season then would be hard to ignore especially as he's playing in Wales

Never really transferred his club form to Test level. Much like Aled Brew. Given few opportunities, but where the likes of North and Cuthbert have swam, these boys sank; let's not forget it took three years for Biggar to receive another call up after the draw against Fiji! Rees was admittedly fairly average when in red. He just seems one of these players who I'd put in the Fenby-Fussell type bracket of being effective and decent Rabo players who simply will not cut it long term at the top level. His age is also against him. Wrong perhaps in a meritocracy, but it seems to be the reality with Gatland that Rees is simply not part of the Welsh plan.

Miaow,

I agree with you on his previous form, though he looks sharp at the moment but I am sure I have read that he upset Gatland and Co somehow, so thats what meant by what did he do?

Oh yeah. No, he was called up to the World Cup Poland squad, and then sent home without warning or reason, apparently still fit, with possibly one or two others who I can't remember (possibly a few forwards, Jon Thomas?). My suspicion is that he didn't make the cut for the wrestling/lifting/fitness stakes, and maybe kicked off about that, or possibly there was a completely different reason, but something went awry during that camp, and he was demoted by the Blues and off to Scotland within a year.

Edit: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-set-omit-jonathan-thomas-1821213

Andy Powell was dropped too, but I think he went on to make the final WC squad, didn't he (I know he was recalled for the 2012 6N but can't quite remember if he was at the WC)?

“I think I had an idea in my head that maybe I wouldn’t be going to the World Cup after we came back from the first Poland trip and I wasn’t going back for the second trip.” said Rees.

“Obviously it was disappointing because on the first trip it was all fitness and we hadn’t done any rugby training.

“I did pretty well in the fitness, but I would have liked to have the chance to show what I can do rugby wise on the second trip.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/blues-richie-rees-not-given-1808498

I think that quote is quite telling.