Do Americans Consider Cheating Part Of Winning? Ward & B-Hop Prime Examples

We have two greats of the modern era: B-Hop and Andre Ward. Two gifted athletes who openly head butt and elbow boxers in the face to create cuts that they can exploit. See any B-Hop fight, and in particular, Ward vs Kessler & Ward vs Dawson. Awful butts in both fights, plus elbows.

Also, consider the PED issues that have plagued American boxing. So many 'elite' fighters being found out. It seems that having the 'edge' is key in America, and winning at any cost is accepted.

Of course other nations have there issues, but those issues rarely come with such praise.

Thoughts on the elite of American boxers being found to be cheats? We even have a drug abuser in Mayweather's camp now in the shape of Love, worrying.

To quote one of my Archaeology lecturers on land surveying:

'If the GPS system is down...America is probably invading somewhere'

Steffan wrote:To quote one of my Archaeology lecturers on land surveying:

'If the GPS system is down...America is probably invading somewhere'

hahahaha

haha!

Why don't you do us all a favor and P**s off...you simpering, nauseous little muppet..........

"This weekend is so great this thread needs posting early"..........

You been on the juice today Truss?

I can sense roid rage

Steffan wrote:You been on the juice today Truss?

I can sense roid rage

He is American.

To be fair Truss, you're always putting in a few Brit-bashing threads so if you don't like what emore's posting, don'take the bait.

I actually think he has a valid point. I would be interested to see if Ward will actually take a fight abroad rather than back in the US where he seems to be protected, especially by the referees. Fair or foul both he and Hopkins are clever and slick but there will always be question marks over their methods in the ring.

Ward would probably bring Joe Cortez over with him.

I once had the unfortunate pleasure of meeting what you would call an 'American' on holiday in Barcelona and I can say with authority that 'Americans' do consider cheating part of winning.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:I once had the unfortunate pleasure of meeting what you would call an 'American' on holiday in Barcelona and I can say with authority that 'Americans' do consider cheating part of winning.

Did you sleep with him?

jimdig wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:I once had the unfortunate pleasure of meeting what you would call an 'American' on holiday in Barcelona and I can say with authority that 'Americans' do consider cheating part of winning.

Did you sleep with him?

He cheated me out of 5 euros in a poker game.

Can you imagine Andre Ward's demands if he fights in the UK? Bare in mind the guy has a Chad Dawson type fan base:

All American judges.
Virgil Hunter as Ref.
HBO controlled commentary.
20 million cash with 70% of the PPV.
An American flag for a canvas.
56 ounce gloves.
Head butts made legal.
Elbows too.
Biting allowed.

Hahahaahahahaha!

Well, if you tried hard enough, you could basically construct a case for just about any country to show how their fighters have a relaxed attitude to 'cheating.'

Replace Ward and Hopkins with the names of Watt and Eubank, and hey presto, you've got an article showing how much Brits love to cheat in order to win. Sean O'Grady was cheated out of taking Watt's Lightweight title in just about every way you can imagine, and Eubank's reverse headbutt affair against Sherry wasn't much better.

Margarito's loaded gloves, Duran socking Buchanan in the town halls after the bell, Ingemar Johansson's dastardly act of positioning our 'Enry directly in line with the sun so that he could land an illegal knockout punch which Cooper wouldn't be able to see coming.....Ok, perhaps not the last one. But quite a few examples of cheating there, with nary an American in sight.

Replace 'Americans' with 'bleak, utterly ruthless and single-minded individuals' and you might be closer to the truth, emore.

88Chris05 wrote:Well, if you tried hard enough, you could basically construct a case for just about any country to show how their fighters have a relaxed attitude to 'cheating.'

Replace Ward and Hopkins with the names of Watt and Eubank, and hey presto, you've got an article showing how much Brits love to cheat in order to win. Sean O'Grady was cheated out of taking Watt's Lightweight title in just about every way you can imagine, and Eubank's reverse headbutt affair against Sherry wasn't much better.

Margarito's loaded gloves, Duran socking Buchanan in the town halls after the bell, Ingemar Johansson's dastardly act of positioning our 'Enry directly in line with the sun so that he could land an illegal knockout punch which Cooper wouldn't be able to see coming.....Ok, perhaps not the last one. But quite a few examples of cheating there, with nary an American in sight.

Replace 'Americans' with 'bleak, utterly ruthless and single-minded individuals' and you might be closer to the truth, emore.

I'm talking about active boxers Chris, not going through the archives chasing old fighters fighting under different times.

I'm talking about Americans as they seem to be in the spotlight more: Olympic conditioning coaches allowed back in boxing after being found to have supplied PED's. Fighters being allowed to continue to box after being found to have taken PED's. Elite level fighters being found to head butt and elbow in fights. There's plenty more publicized in America than these other countries. The fact you have to go back into the past only highlights this, Chris.

What about Tyson Fury knocking uot an American in Cunnigham with an illegal blow?

What about Manny winning 2 highly contentious bouts against Marquez?

What about helenius beating Chis (highly contentious)

What about Hughie punching the guy the other day when told to back away?

It happens in every country - this article is absolute nonsense!

Dam! Adam you beat me to it. Not sure much thought was put in to this thread though.

Respectfully disagree, Adam/Hampo.

There is a definite ‘win at all costs’ attitude in the States that just isn’t replicated here to the same degree. You only need to look at the US doping scandals and the subsequent treatment (or lack thereof) of the culprits who maintain superstar status. The US is on a scale of the Chinese swimteam doping in the 90s, you’ve got your headliner examples like Barry Bonds, Marion Jones and Lance Armstrong but (to keep it boxing related) also look at Lamont Peterson – proven drug cheat yet the DC commission wouldn’t overturn the result and the IBF wouldn’t strip the belt.

Outside of illegal drug abuse I agree the article is mainly baloney though.

Not sure about the PED thing with Peterson to be honest.

From my understanding, the WBA strippage was for not declaring it - I believe that if he had, there wouldnt have been an issue.

I dont think that in a sport like boxing, the "win at all costs" attitude is the exclusive mindset of the Americans.

I think the reason why so many are getting caught there now is due to a more lax testing in the past but more rigorous now - the past is catching up with them.

It wouldnt surprise me if every country was as bad/ good as each other. You also have to bear in mind the boxing population and where the money is - of course there are likely to be more.

I agree with davidemore. America has promoted a win at all costs environment and is a haven for steroid abuse and foul play. Its well and good for Americans to say you have to make it in America to be a success as an excuse not to travel but they have not created an environment of fair play. Same goes for Germany which is notorious in boxing for foul play. The likes of Fury, Khan, Haye and Froch are a credit to boxing for their willingness to travel to hostile territory when their rivals don’t do the same. Take the recent Froch fight there. Just goes to show how big an advantage being at home is. Theres no need to worry about did refs or judges in Britain.

winchester wrote:I agree with davidemore.

If ever there was a sign of being a winner of an argument, I think I just spotted it!

winchester wrote:I agree with davidemore. America has promoted a win at all costs environment and is a haven for steroid abuse and foul play. Its well and good for Americans to say you have to make it in America to be a success as an excuse not to travel but they have not created an environment of fair play. Same goes for Germany which is notorious in boxing for foul play. The likes of Fury, Khan, Haye and Froch are a credit to boxing for their willingness to travel to hostile territory when their rivals don’t do the same. Take the recent Froch fight there. Just goes to show how big an advantage being at home is. Theres no need to worry about did refs or judges in Britain.

Seriously? We get our fair share of home cooking, the referee in the Khan vs Barerra fight for example.

Adam D wrote:Not sure about the PED thing with Peterson to be honest.

From my understanding, the WBA strippage was for not declaring it - I believe that if he had, there wouldnt have been an issue.

I dont think that in a sport like boxing, the "win at all costs" attitude is the exclusive mindset of the Americans.

I think the reason why so many are getting caught there now is due to a more lax testing in the past but more rigorous now - the past is catching up with them.

It wouldnt surprise me if every country was as bad/ good as each other. You also have to bear in mind the boxing population and where the money is - of course there are likely to be more.

It's not so much the 'getting caught' I'm talking about, as the attitudes towards it both in the first place and, importantly, after being caught. In America it seems much more of case of "oh, naughty boy/girl, you got caught, slapped wrist" whereas here, for example, we try banning people for life and making them social pariahs. It's just a totally different attitude towards winning/cheating.

winchester wrote:I agree with davidemore. America has promoted a win at all costs environment and is a haven for steroid abuse and foul play. Its well and good for Americans to say you have to make it in America to be a success as an excuse not to travel but they have not created an environment of fair play. Same goes for Germany which is notorious in boxing for foul play. The likes of Fury, Khan, Haye and Froch are a credit to boxing for their willingness to travel to hostile territory when their rivals don’t do the same. Take the recent Froch fight there. Just goes to show how big an advantage being at home is. Theres no need to worry about did refs or judges in Britain.

Ijl (under instruction from richie woodhall)is doing his best to redress that imbalance

hampo171 wrote:

winchester wrote:I agree with davidemore. America has promoted a win at all costs environment and is a haven for steroid abuse and foul play. Its well and good for Americans to say you have to make it in America to be a success as an excuse not to travel but they have not created an environment of fair play. Same goes for Germany which is notorious in boxing for foul play. The likes of Fury, Khan, Haye and Froch are a credit to boxing for their willingness to travel to hostile territory when their rivals don’t do the same. Take the recent Froch fight there. Just goes to show how big an advantage being at home is. Theres no need to worry about did refs or judges in Britain.

Seriously? We get our fair share of home cooking, the referee in the Khan vs Barerra fight for example.

There was a fight about a year or so ago in up in the North West somewhere that was way more shocking. Home fighter got absolutely whipped and decision was handed to the Manc.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

hampo171 wrote:

winchester wrote:I agree with davidemore. America has promoted a win at all costs environment and is a haven for steroid abuse and foul play. Its well and good for Americans to say you have to make it in America to be a success as an excuse not to travel but they have not created an environment of fair play. Same goes for Germany which is notorious in boxing for foul play. The likes of Fury, Khan, Haye and Froch are a credit to boxing for their willingness to travel to hostile territory when their rivals don’t do the same. Take the recent Froch fight there. Just goes to show how big an advantage being at home is. Theres no need to worry about did refs or judges in Britain.

Seriously? We get our fair share of home cooking, the referee in the Khan vs Barerra fight for example.

There was a fight about a year or so ago in up in the North West somewhere that was way more shocking. Home fighter got absolutely whipped and decision was handed to the Manc.

Exactly. Hard to say that fighters have nothing to fear when they travel to the UK.

Roy Jones in the olympics......Koreans offering gold to judges..
The Chinese swimming team
Linford christie............your current 400m runner's habit of missing tests....
Montgomerie's misplacing of his ball in Dubai...
Armstrong yes but what was that guy called...David Millar was it ??
Sven Ottke...........

Sorry but not all the bad s**t happens in America.....although i'm sure it's nice for you guys to think so....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The Chinese swimming team

And how do you think those lot are doing now? Super rich multi-millionaires still earning a packet off the back of their cheating or something decidedly different?

Adam D wrote:

winchester wrote:I agree with davidemore.

If ever there was a sign of being a winner of an argument, I think I just spotted it!

I don't care...........Bit of an irrelevant question.

I don't consider cheating to be part of winning.........But erm.........

Luis Resto
Antonio Margherito
Roberto Duran

seem to think it was alright..

How about the East German athletes and gymnasts in the 80's and 90's......

Carl Lewis

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

How about the East German athletes and gymnasts in the 80's and 90's......

Same question again then.........

It is relevant because this is about attitudes towards cheating (particularly PEDs in my view).

The OP is concentrating on Americans..

I'm pointing out it's universal.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

How about the East German athletes and gymnasts in the 80's and 90's......

Same question again then.........

It is relevant because this is about attitudes towards cheating (particularly PEDs in my view).

It is said that Mahatma Ghandi was asked, "What is your opinion of American civilization?"

His reply: "I think it would be an excellent idea."

Before an Indian shot him..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The OP is concentrating on Americans..

I'm pointing out it's universal.

And I'm saying that whilst cheating in general may be universal, the attitude towards it from a PED perspective is different in the US to anywhere else in the world (perhaps except China etc).

How would you know............

Great, this old chestnut again....

How about lived there. Worked there. Have dozens of friends from there. Have family still over there having lived/worked/grown up there 15 yrs now. Chuck in travelling the length and breadth of the country over the course of a dozen or more holidays and I think I've got at least a modicum of insight.

Well that's it then..........You know the American psyche!!

Not saying I know it inside out, just saying I've had plenty of experience of it and more than enough to comment.

Stop being so precious (as always).

Not precious just pointing out this thread is all about saying America thinks it's alright to cheat.........

I'm pointing out that plenty find it abhorrent..........

And I'm pointing out that cheating (PEDs) is no barrier to success in the States, which it should be, unlike other countries.

Marion jones was banned and went to prison............Armstrong can't do triathlons...

Has Linford Christie been prosecuted or your four hundred metre runner been banned for life....

Is Rio Ferdinand still playing at the top level???

We tried banning athletes for life and the global body over-turned it.

Rio never guilty of PED use, watch your libel there. In fact to the contrary he was proven not guilty.

The fact remains that if you wish to find a common trend of cheating in sport, go to America. They develop it there, they employ professional cheats to cheat, it's the home of PED abuse IMO. We can't argue that, surely?

Adam D wrote:

winchester wrote:I agree with davidemore.

If ever there was a sign of being a winner of an argument, I think I just spotted it!

Adam stick with me kiddo, you could learn a thing or three about debate.

America is where all the money is...............

Not to say the generalisation that America consider cheating part of winning is true..

Let's say every muslim is a terrorist.

[quote="TRUSSMAN66"]America is where all the money is...............

quote]

I thought that was China?

[quote="bhb001"]

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:America is where all the money is...............

quote]

I thought that was China?

Give it 20 yrs...

....more like 3 according to the OECD.