Chips off the old block

Chips off the old block

Sometimes we forget that the best rugby players are born, not made. England Under-16s may have narrowly beaten Wales Under-16s at Oxford's Iffley Road earlier this month but guess which side had a) the more natural, threatening backs and b) the more solid pack of forwards? You can only assume that if England had young midfield backs with the talent of their opposite numbers they would have chosen them, which poses a familiar question. Why are Welsh schoolboys, at least on this evidence, still more nimble and inventive than their English counterparts? Coaching clearly plays its part but it is hard not to conclude that Welsh backs, four decades on from Barry John, Phil Bennett, Gerald Davies, Carwyn James and the rest, simply have more elusiveness in their genes.


http://www.guardian.co.uk

Its the choice kids make perhaps? - nimble and English - play football - nimble and welsh - play rugby

All the nimble/elusive backs in the World are no good to you unless youve got the forwards to give them some quality ball.

It might be too that England just tend to clinically coach more (theories and systems) and Welsh coaching is looser in terms of what it demands (give it a go).

In short, roughly the same quality of players but instructed differently?

The currrent Welsh rugby side play negative, effective rugby. That's that we'll see in the Lions and we'll lose. Again.

I didn't see much negativity in that fateful penultimate game of the 6N.

SecretFly wrote:I didn't see much negativity in that fateful penultimate game of the 6N.

Penultimate?

The final game was taking advantage of mistakes. The Northern Hemisphere game is in big trouble.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I didn't see much negativity in that fateful penultimate game of the 6N.

Penultimate?

The final game was taking advantage of mistakes. The Northern Hemisphere game is in big trouble.

Was the 'final' game the final game of the 6N?

Sorry, I forgot it decided that France (and not Ireland) were bottom I'd switched off by then.

maestegmafia wrote:Chips off the old block

Sometimes we forget that the best rugby players are born, not made. England Under-16s may have narrowly beaten Wales Under-16s at Oxford's Iffley Road earlier this month but guess which side had a) the more natural, threatening backs and b) the more solid pack of forwards? You can only assume that if England had young midfield backs with the talent of their opposite numbers they would have chosen them, which poses a familiar question. Why are Welsh schoolboys, at least on this evidence, still more nimble and inventive than their English counterparts? Coaching clearly plays its part but it is hard not to conclude that Welsh backs, four decades on from Barry John, Phil Bennett, Gerald Davies, Carwyn James and the rest, simply have more elusiveness in their genes.


http://www.guardian.co.uk

I think the Welsh players of the 70's set the scene for those to come although theyve produced nothing like that group since.
I'd also extend it out to the Samoan's that play the game. They've a production line of players with speed, flair and instinct- right back to BG Williams. Sure they learn the game here, but so non Samoan's and we dont turn out anything like the number they do on a percapita basis.

Look at Tuilagi. Moved to England when 10 or so? Now plays for England. Whats the chances of that? Beating all those kids who grew up with the system. Clearly his origins, brothers influences and talent gave him most of what he hes today. He's not the finished article no but theres still only one of him. Its not as if theres a huge influx of Samoan kids moving to England. One goes...and makes England. Go figure...

'Chips off the old block' or 'Chips on the shoulder'?

A Chip off the old block is a child (usually son) displaying characteristics of a parent (usually father).

greytiger wrote:'Chips off the old block' or 'Chips on the shoulder'?

A Chip off the old block is a child (usually son) displaying characteristics of a parent (usually father).

True grey...its like saying between them Edwards, Bennett and JPR fathered all the quick footed Welsh players....I mean...where did they find the time?

I currently coach an u13's rugby team in Wales and we have recently been on tour to England and played three games. I was surprised at how poor the backs were of the English sides. All three teams played a very forward orientated game and dont think the ball went past inside centre.

I found out that this was the first year that they had played on a full size pitch and the first year they had played with a full back row. I know they are still young at 13 but in my opinion this is where the basics of the game are learnt and it seems that the English teams are coached to play a very narrow game with no traditional open side flankers and this does hinder their natural attacking flair.

Just an observation.

'Chips off the old block

Sometimes we forget that the best rugby players are born, not made.'

Really? Is that why Wales are playing so many English born?

No 7&1/2 wrote:'Chips off the old block

Sometimes we forget that the best rugby players are born, not made.'

Really? Is that why Wales are playing so many English born?

Quite a nonsensical post Maes.

Pyleboy65 wrote:I currently coach an u13's rugby team in Wales and we have recently been on tour to England and played three games. I was surprised at how poor the backs were of the English sides. All three teams played a very forward orientated game and dont think the ball went past inside centre.

I found out that this was the first year that they had played on a full size pitch and the first year they had played with a full back row. I know they are still young at 13 but in my opinion this is where the basics of the game are learnt and it seems that the English teams are coached to play a very narrow game with no traditional open side flankers and this does hinder their natural attacking flair.

Just an observation.

Most amateur clubs in England are poor. The schools however, are not.

Is that broken record at me? Just pointing out that it has nothing to do with where you're born.

Don't even think it has any major merit. There are and have been many players from England who are creative mavericks etc they don't neccessarily get chosen by England over solid players though.

I would say from my own observations most guys in England pick up rugby from 11-13 when they entere high school.

Not sure if it is the same in Wales but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of their players had started much earlier.

Schoolboy rugby is generally about size and pace. If you have a massive lad who can steamroll through teams you give him the ball.... similar to a lad who is unbelievably quick. You can concentrate on that a little too much and it hinders your development.

When I played Welsh youth academies as a teenager they were easily the most gifted players I came across... regardless of the result.

Maes likes a spot of genetics theory. The genes switch on/off at the mud flats of the Severn banks and no amount of cross border interbreeding can ever alter that basic genetic phenomenon. I agree though that we English are total mongrels. Like Cuthbert & North.

Taylorman

wrc Manu Tuilagi, I certainly think the environment he grew up in played a big part in his development and that England have been lucky that he chose to play for us rather than Samoa.

Can you imagine what the games would be like in a Tuilagi family get together? They probably had to pre-warn Leicester infirmary's casualty department...

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is that broken record at me? Just pointing out that it has nothing to do with where you're born.

Don't even think it has any major merit. There are and have been many players from England who are creative mavericks etc they don't neccessarily get chosen by England over solid players though.

Yes. I interpreted it for another petty and pointless dig at players representing a country they were not born in (which is a can of worms). Now I see that you weren't saying that and I agree with what you are actually saying.

Some nations are just naturally suited to different sports.

Average height of the Dutch 6'1. Average height of English 5'10.

There are just near as many Boere to English in SA but the Boere are generally bigger lumps... perhaps diet, perhaps genetics.

fa0019 wrote:I would say from my own observations most guys in England pick up rugby from 11-13 when they entere high school.

Not sure if it is the same in Wales but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of their players had started much earlier.

Schoolboy rugby is generally about size and pace. If you have a massive lad who can steamroll through teams you give him the ball.... similar to a lad who is unbelievably quick. You can concentrate on that a little too much and it hinders your development.

When I played Welsh youth academies as a teenager they were easily the most gifted players I came across... regardless of the result.

Interesting. Wales certainly have an abundance of good individual players at every level. It's playing as a team that is lacking compared to their opposition.

fa0019 wrote:Some nations are just naturally suited to different sports.

Average height of the Dutch 6'1. Average height of English 5'10.

There are just near as many Boere to English in SA but the Boere are generally bigger lumps... perhaps diet, perhaps genetics.

Shush fa0019, don't mention genetics. They're mighty tetchy around that word in these parts. It's a fine way to get into a glorious battle.

SecretFly wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Some nations are just naturally suited to different sports.

Average height of the Dutch 6'1. Average height of English 5'10.

There are just near as many Boere to English in SA but the Boere are generally bigger lumps... perhaps diet, perhaps genetics.

Shush fa0019, don't mention genetics. They're mighty tetchy around that word in these parts. It's a fine way to get into a glorious battle.

oops sorry, I'll remember to tow the 606 line..

"we're all the same.... it doesn't matter if Samoans are 40 times more likely to play in the NFL then white americans, genetics has nothing to do with it... they just like the sport unlike white americans"

The reason why the younger age groups in England play with smaller team sizes and pitches is to try and get some skills into our players at an early age. It is acknowledged that we don't have the all round skills at u16/u18 ages. We have big strong straight running players who are sccessful at that age, but they don't have the all round skills to compensate when everybody else is as big and as strong as them.

You can blame the Englaish nature, which relies on honest committment, but route one rugby. You can blame the poor quality of our coaches at the junior level, who are well meaning, but generally limited in backs skills. Or you can blame the mini-rugby system that brings players in at age 5 and then teaches them win at all costs rugby, which generally involves giving it to the kid who is bigger than everyone else and can run through the opposition, or the kid who is faster than everyone else and can run round them.

At least you can't blame the current England team with just putting out a solid pack of forwards based on the last Wales game - those crafty Welsh suddenly turning all those nippy backs into hulking great forwards and hulking great backs.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:The currrent Welsh rugby side play negative, effective rugby. That's that we'll see in the Lions and we'll lose. Again.

I couldn't agree more what we need is those creative free scoring English backs for the Lions. That 10 is just a twinkletoed genius and that big fella in midfield, well its like watching Mike Gibson

dragonbreath wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:The currrent Welsh rugby side play negative, effective rugby. That's that we'll see in the Lions and we'll lose. Again.

I couldn't agree more what we need is those creative free scoring English backs for the Lions. That 10 is just a twinkletoed genius and that big fella in midfield, well its like watching Mike Gibson

Nahh.... Burns will be on the England summer tour

dummy_half wrote:Taylorman

wrc Manu Tuilagi, I certainly think the environment he grew up in played a big part in his development and that England have been lucky that he chose to play for us rather than Samoa.

Can you imagine what the games would be like in a Tuilagi family get together? They probably had to pre-warn Leicester infirmary's casualty department...

Perhaps he's so big to protect himself when he was at JCC.

gregortree wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:The currrent Welsh rugby side play negative, effective rugby. That's that we'll see in the Lions and we'll lose. Again.

I couldn't agree more what we need is those creative free scoring English backs for the Lions. That 10 is just a twinkletoed genius and that big fella in midfield, well its like watching Mike Gibson

Nahh.... Burns will be on the England summer tour

It is a constant source of amusement to me how generation after generation the English will always pick a Farrell over a Burns.

Farrell is the most overated player I have ever seen. He consistently gets people (English people it must be said)wetting their pants over his ability to kick penalties and tackle. It must be a great life to be so easily excited by Frak.

Farrell over Burns, long may it continue

Burns will be there pretty soon, still building form with Glaws.
But pre this Burns / Farrell generation, which players do you have in mind who were spurned ? Perhaps someone better during the Wilko reign ?
Or Tubby Goode of Leicester ? Older still surely not Stu 'Pieman' Barnes, late of Bath ? Come on, name some talent Dragon.

Do you not think that there is something very wrong with the system if over the last 30 odd years England have not been able to produce any fly-halfs of substance other than Wilkinson and Farrell? With more players than any other country why is England's cupboard so bare?

Could the likes of Charlie Hodgson who has dominated the English premiership have been better dealt with, so that he could have transferred his obvious talent to the international game? Cipriani - picked too early and then dumped, Shane Geraghty - bags of talent and after a brief flicker for England given the boot, George Ford - great early promise but in danger of disappearing.

What makes you think Freddie Bruns will be able to buck the trend of English no 10s - Rob Andrew, Paul Grayson, Jonny Wilkinson, Owen Farrell - where kicking penalties is what counts?

Easy:

Wales: Everyone can play.
England: Still mainly an elitist sport.

The majority of talent in England gets lost to football, cricket or rugby league or they simply don't get the opportunity to play rugby union.

Also explains why England has no good tennis players even though they invented tennis.