The v2Forum Hall of Fame discussion thread

[Shelsey93]

First topic message reminder :

The thread to debate additions to the v2Forum Cricket Hall of Fame

Current members:
https://www.606v2.com/t18388-606v2-cricket-hall-of-fame-inductees-graphics-included

FoF's original HoF debate summation:

Spoiler:

Previous debate:
https://www.606v2.com/t17447-the-606v2-cricket-hall-of-fame-part-1
https://www.606v2.com/t21577-the-606v2-cricket-hall-of-fame-part-2#831213
https://www.606v2.com/t28256-the-606v2-cricket-hall-of-fame-part-3
https://www.606v2.com/t37142-the-v2forum-cricket-hall-of-fame-discussion-thread-part-4#1671498



Right, voting for the current round will close on Sunday - 10am.

Here are my votes:

Charlie Turner - Clearly Australia's stand-out bowler of the pre-World War I era. Yes, he may have had financial issues. But they don't really influence my perception of him as a cricket. He left Tests slightly early but was at an age by which many bowlers of later eras were worn out by. It must also be considered that a tour then consisted of months on a boat so playing international cricket too often was never going to help you financially (amateur game of course). YES

Bill Johnston - I said earlier that he was certainly a serious candidate. But sadly I can't quite find it in me to vote Yes for him. Firstly, he had a few too many poor series. Secondly, he seems very much to have been the third man in a top notch attack. To get in as an unsung hero he probably needed to have played a few more than 40 Tests.

Hugh Tayfield - Very similar sentiments to those I had with Johnston. Of course, it is in Tayfield's favour that he's SA best spinner. But I don't think he was a great - more of an important cog in a decent team. Has probably suffered from not having someone champion his case. NO

Makhaya Ntini - A very good bowler on his day, but it wasn't always his day and he wasn't in the class of a lot of his contemporaries and near contemporaries. His role as an icon is indisputable, but isn't sufficient to get him in the Hall in my view. Only time can tell if he can make a difference. NO

[kwinigolfer]

Sorry to see that one of HOF Candidate Fred Titmus's great rivals, tho' not for the HOF, has died.
John Mortimore, who was the very essence of the top flight County Cricketer (and I mean in a very positive way, unlike those who wish to cast aspersions). Three "doubles", almost 16,000 runs, 1,800 wickets in a line-up that, for much of the time, also contained David Allen.

[guildfordbat]

Kwini - sorry to hear of John Mortimore's death. Unfortunately, I (and I fear I'm not alone) best remember him in a similar way to how many think of Malcolm Nash being put to the sword by Garry Sobers. I refer to that televised Gillette Cup semi-final from the early 1970s when Lancs' David Hughes plundered 24 runs off an over from Mortimore to snatch victory as the clock neared 9 o'clock in the evening and darkness descended.

Nonetheless, still very much ''the very essence of the top flight County Cricketer'' as you say in a tribute that I fully understand and appreciate.

[kwinigolfer]

guildford,
I hadn't remembered that Mortimore was on the receiving end of the Hughes onslaught.
In a small way, that was one of the early "milestones" of one day cricket.
David Hughes, probably one of the last Wisden Cricketers of the Year who was a true County man. Used to love watching him play.

[guildfordbat]

guildford,
I hadn't remembered that Mortimore was on the receiving end of the Hughes onslaught.
In a small way, that was one of the early "milestones" of one day cricket.
David Hughes, probably one of the last Wisden Cricketers of the Year who was a true County man. Used to love watching him play.

Absolutely. In its own smaller way, that over from Mortimore to Hughes was comparable to the one from Nash to Sobers. Mortimore's over - or rather the destruction that Hughes inflicted -was ground breaking in showing how a run rate (although we didn't know that term then) could be recovered. I don't know if that was then the most runs scored off a single over in a limited overs game; it probably wasn't but it was still exceptionally unusual at the time. It really caught the public's attention, particularly as it was shown live on tv with other programmes being shelved as play went beyond the expected finish time in the darkening gloom. A real treat and happy memories, although probably not for Mortimore!

[msp83]

We seem to be like England in the recent Ashes!. Any chance of a South Africa like turn around?
I would like someone to initiate a bit more discussion on Marsh. I've had a look at some of the earlier debate, they are interesting, I would hope for a bit more.......

[guildfordbat]

Msp - I admire your Rogers-like tenacity.

I really need to go through your admirable posts and attachments in support of Kirsten and will do so. Just hope I won't be alone - you and your candidate deserve better.

I also haven't forgotten about your 'folk hero' query as to Titmus. I've dug up something, not that relevant but may raise a smile. Will post soon.

Marsh appears to be suffering (as he did first time out, just like Thommo) from having no one prepared to fight his corner. I gave Marsh a narrow YES last time and will look to repeat why. I doubt that my own view will alter but, equally, there probably won't be enough there to change the minds of previous NO voters who are still around. All a bit of a shame which I think is where msp came in ....

[msp83]

Lets hope Guildford, that we are not left alone here.

[kingraf]

I could vote yes for Marsh - given a convincing enough case - a hall of fame isn't supposed to be (imho) a All-time XI, but rather a place for cricketers/managers who have left the game in a better place. Think Stallone getting into the boxing hall of fame. I know this is at odds with me not voting for Titmus, but I just don't think his impact was large enough

[kwinigolfer]

Happy Birthday to HOF'er John Arlott: 100 yrs old today!

[guildfordbat]

Kwini - the perfect excuse for a large glass of the red.

[kwinigolfer]

Indeed guildford, tho it's not my customary 6.00 a.m. tipple.

[guildfordbat]

Indeed guildford, tho it's not my customary 6.00 a.m. tipple.

Yes, but it is for Arlott.   

[Guest]

come to a halt again..

[kwinigolfer]

If there was a Hall Of Fame for slip-fielding alone, Philip Sharpe would be a Charter Member.
Sad day for one of post-war England's least athletic-looking Test Cricketers.

[Corporalhumblebucket]

If there was a Hall Of Fame for slip-fielding alone, Philip Sharpe would be a Charter Member.
Sad day for one of post-war England's least athletic-looking Test Cricketers.

Very true. Phil was magnificent slip fielder.

[Shelsey93]

A few Hall of Famers make my rundown of county comebacks - http://deepextracover.com/2014/05/31/county-cricket-comebacks-the-successful-the-romantic-and-the-failed/#.U4pFE16y_t1

[kingraf]

So uh, we try again.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Watching the Bradman thing on Sky, and it still baffles me how this one guy is just so far ahead of the pack in terms of average and runs (imagine how many he'd have scored if WW2 hadn't happened!!)

It's something I'll never ever get me head round

[kwinigolfer]

I hadn't realised that the ICC Hall Of Fame was inducting three cricketers in 2015, having drawn a blank in 2014.

Martin Crowe and Anil Kumble are the lucky ones who will have to hone their speech-making skills, the first ones to do so since Adam Gilchrist, Debbie Hockley, Bob Simpson, Shane Warne and Waqar Younis in 2013. Betty Wilson is also among the 2015 generation, a posthumous honour.

Still think they're joining the Football League HOF in focussing almost exclusively (now anyway) on relatively recent retirees; a commercial imperative they must think, but they definitely run the risk of forgetting stalwarts of the past.
Which was one of the points of this thread!

[kwinigolfer]

I see we've lost a v2 Forum HOF candidate of threads gone by:

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/cricket/34025818

[kwinigolfer]

Shocking to hear of Martin Crowe's death . . . . . . . . .

Not the "lucky one" any longer . . . . . . . .

[wisden]

used to enjoy this thread..

[kwinigolfer]

And another fringe HOF player tips his cap and enters the pavilion in the sky: Seymour Nurse, elegant middle order batsman, wonderful cover fielder, unsung but vital member of the Sobers-era teams.

[guildfordbat]

Kwini - given the pushing and shoving I had to do to get Kanhai and Greenidge through the door to the Hall of Fame, I wasn't going to attempt the same for Seymour Nurse. Nonetheless, a very fine West Indies cricketer of the 1960s who, by general consent including Sobers, retired from Test cricket too early. I noticed that the often under rated Desmond Haynes also paid tribute to Nurse yesterday.

[kwinigolfer]

Kwini - given the pushing and shoving I had to do to get Kanhai and Greenidge through the door to the Hall of Fame, I wasn't going to attempt the same for Seymour Nurse. Nonetheless, a very fine West Indies cricketer of the 1960s who, by general consent including Sobers, retired from Test cricket too early. I noticed that the often under rated Desmond Haynes also paid tribute to Nurse yesterday.

Was thinking there might be a nice tribute on the BBC web-site, but not a single mention that I can find. Pathetic.

[Corporalhumblebucket]

Belatedly, sorry to hear that Seymour Nurse has retired to the celestial pavillion. Names from that great era for West Indian gradually taking their leave.

[kwinigolfer]

[quote="Corporalhumblebucket"]Belatedly, sorry to hear that Seymour Nurse has retired to the celestial pavillion. Names from that great era for West Indian gradually taking their leave.  [/quote


Including today's news that Basil Butcher is joined Seymour Nurse in that celestial pavilion . . . . . . Out at 86.

[dummy_half]

Belatedly, sorry to hear that Seymour Nurse has retired to the celestial pavillion. Names from that great era for West Indian gradually taking their leave.  [/quote


Including today's news that Basil Butcher is joined Seymour Nurse in that celestial pavilion . . . . . . Out at 86.

Not a player I'd heard of prior to this (I'm a bit young - can vaguely remember Kalicharan, and obviously names like Sobers and Kanhai, but mainly the late 70s onwards WI team). Anyway, 86 is a fairly decent innings...

One of the quirky cricket stats I like - Butcher played 44 Tests, and took 5 wickets with his occasional leg spin. His best bowling figures? 5-34. All his wickets came as a Michelle in one innings...

[kwinigolfer]

I believe Everton Weekes was the last remaining survivor of my first ever first class match, as a young spectator of course.
Wonderful cricketer and, by all accounts, a great man.

[guildfordbat]

I believe Everton Weekes was the last remaining survivor of my first ever first class match, as a young spectator of course.
Wonderful cricketer and, by all accounts, a great man.

Kwini - that's a pretty distinctive claim nowadays to have seen such a wonderful cricketer. Everton Weekes was before my (watching time) but his reputation and stats stand out and always will.

Interested in any details and memories of your first ever first class match, thanks.

[kwinigolfer]

How about this guildford?

http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1950S/1957/WI_IN_ENG/WI_HANTS_13-16JUL1957.html

Looking at the teams, I believe all the Hampshire players are in the pavilion in the sky, Malcolm Heath the last to depart last December.

But Wes Hall is obviously still with us, possibly one other but that requires wiki research.
EDIT: And, How did I miss Gary Sobers? And Tom Dewdney also still out in the middle. Both survivors of the Collie Smith accident as it happens.

My favourite tid-bit of trivia is that Portsmouth Grammar School Old Boy, Mike Barnard, played in the first cricket match I attended, having previously been in the first football game, playing for Pompey (5) vs Arsenal (2)! Very fitting as it happens.

[guildfordbat]

How about this guildford?

http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1950S/1957/WI_IN_ENG/WI_HANTS_13-16JUL1957.html

Looking at the teams, I believe all the Hampshire players are in the pavilion in the sky, Malcolm Heath the last to depart last December.

But Wes Hall is obviously still with us, possibly one other but that requires wiki research.
EDIT:   And, How did I miss Gary Sobers? And Tom Dewdney also still out in the middle. Both survivors of the Collie Smith accident as it happens.

My favourite tid-bit of trivia is that Portsmouth Grammar School Old Boy, Mike Barnard, played in the first cricket match I attended, having previously been in the first football game, playing for Pompey (5) vs Arsenal (2)! Very fitting as it happens.

Thanks, Kwini, although you caused momentary serious panic when I read your post yesterday before you had added the EDIT. As you say now, how did you miss Sobers? I had to check that the world's greatest all rounder was still with us, fearing I might have been out of the country and somehow missed his dismissal a few months back. Fortunately, not the case.

Fascinating scorecard. I see Andy Ganteaume opened the batting for the West Indies in this match. However, he, of course, never played a Test on that tour. His only Test and only Test innings was about a decade earlier when he scored 112. The highest Test average of all time disregarding the usual qualification of 20 innings.

I did wonder if Lance Gibbs (who is still with us) might have been on that tour. However, he wasn't in ''your game'' and I suspect this tour came just a season too soon for him.

I haven't looked it up but seem to recall Mike Barnard playing football for Stoke City in the early '70s.

[alfie]

Gibbs would still have been waiting for the "twins " to call it a day , no ? Ramadhin and Valentine were the first choice pair in 1957 I think , though I believe the Gibbs Test debut came later in that year.

Confess I had pretty much forgotten Tom Dewdney : but Sobers and Hall are a double act that remains in the memory quite vividly even after more than half a century...

My brother was fortunate enough to encounter Wes on his trip to West Indies a few years back and manged to spend a bit of time with him...I have never been so envious of a sibling !

[dummy_half]

Obviously sad to hear of the passing of Everton Weekes, who was obviously a fine cricketer and by all accounts a good man.

Interesting though of how a bit of luck helped him - first few tests against England he didn't distinguish himself, and had been dropped from the final test of the series, but got recalled when George Headley withdrew from the team. He was then dropped on 0, but went on to make 141 and established himself in the Test team. Of course the rest is history...

[kwinigolfer]

How about this guildford?

http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1950S/1957/WI_IN_ENG/WI_HANTS_13-16JUL1957.html

Looking at the teams, I believe all the Hampshire players are in the pavilion in the sky, Malcolm Heath the last to depart last December.

But Wes Hall is obviously still with us, possibly one other but that requires wiki research.
EDIT:   And, How did I miss Gary Sobers? And Tom Dewdney also still out in the middle. Both survivors of the Collie Smith accident as it happens.

My favourite tid-bit of trivia is that Portsmouth Grammar School Old Boy, Mike Barnard, played in the first cricket match I attended, having previously been in the first football game, playing for Pompey (5) vs Arsenal (2)! Very fitting as it happens.

Thanks, Kwini, although you caused momentary serious panic when I read your post yesterday before you had added the EDIT. As you say now, how did you miss Sobers? I had to check that the world's greatest all rounder was still with us, fearing I might have been out of the country and somehow missed his dismissal a few months back. Fortunately, not the case.

Fascinating scorecard. I see Andy Ganteaume opened the batting for the West Indies in this match. However, he, of course, never played a Test on that tour. His only Test and only Test innings was about a decade earlier when he scored 112. The highest Test average of all time disregarding the usual qualification of 20 innings.

I did wonder if Lance Gibbs (who is still with us) might have been on that tour. However, he wasn't in ''your game'' and I suspect this tour came just a season too soon for him.

I haven't looked it up but seem to recall Mike Barnard playing football for Stoke City in the early '70s.

I think that was Mike Bernard wasn't it? In a good Stoke side. Went on to play for Everton.

Never got to meet any of those West Indian players, but did admire Gary Sobers' locker at the old Sandy Lane golf course many years ago! I think that Tour was a year too early for Lance Gibbs.

[guildfordbat]

Hi again Kwini - yep, I got my Barnards and Bernards confused! Apologies. Your guy was a few years earlier.

With some cribbing from cricinfo, Gibbs didn't make his Test debut until '58 so probably missed out on this tour. Following up on Alfie's post, as Gibbs was starting out he did play Tests with both Sonny Ramadhin and Alf Valentine although never in the same match. The ''twins'' both finished their Test careers in the early '60s. I'm pleased that Sonny Ramadhin is also still with us, living in Lancs and now into his 92nd over.

[Gooseberry]

There's a Murali biopic in production called "800". Whilst the film is being shot in Tamil its apparently massively unpopular in his home state after he backed a political candidate who was instrumental in putting down the Tamil resistance.

Going to be interesting to see who they cast as Darrel Hair.

[dummy_half]

Anyone think we should resurrect this with a few recent retirees as nominees?

Alistair Cook

Stuart Broad.

Going to be a couple of Indians (Kohli and Ashwin) and Jimmy Anderson coming up fairly soon, when they call it a day.

I think with both Cook and Broad, the question is how much you credit longevity against performing at a level that is perhaps marginal compared with our previous Hall of Fame members, and whether there were secondary things that push them up or down.

Cook - 5th highest run scorer of all time, achieved opening for (and therefore half his games in) England. I would normally take 50 as the benchmark of an outstanding batsman, and push that down a couple for an opener. Chef averaged just over 45, which is obviously excellent, but a notch low? Famously not a flamboyant stroke maker - 12000 runs with a cut, a pull and a clip to leg... Actually, you could always tell when he was in form because that was when he would play straight drives and drives through mid off (cover drives were a bit more common than he ever made out).
Test bowling average of 7 would be a boost if it was over more than 3 overs and one wicket. A long run as captain, with reasonable success, but was never perceived as a great captain. Similarly was a solid slip fielder but not one to stand out. Did play some exceptional inning though, in particular on the sub-continent. Gains a bit for his general likability (the anti-Boycott?). For me, would make it in because of the sheer weight of runs, but it's not a clear case.

Stuart Broad kind of brings up similar questions. 604 wickets puts him second on the list of fast bowlers, behind only his mate Jimmy Anderson, but an average of nearly 28 is a bit higher than you'd perhaps want from an absolute elite front line seamer (compare with e.g. Dale Steyn* 400 wickets at better than 23). Could contribute useful runs with the bat in the first half of his career, including the memorable 169 against Pakistan, the second highest for a #9 in Tests, but this faded from his armoury later on - still ended up with an average of 18, but a feeling of unfulfilled promise with the bat. Only ever captained England in T20s, but does get some extra credit because of his ability to get on a hot streak and just run through a side - I believe he holds the record for the most 5 wicket spells in Tests. Again, I think the sheer weight of numbers, plus those extras, gets him into the bottom end of our Hall of Fame, but could appreciate different opinions.

* If we didn't consider Steyn earlier, because he hadn't retired, he's an absolute certainty to be in, given that bowling record.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Good pull up Dummy Half - what is the current list of members in our hall, before we debate any further names?

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