v2 G.O.A.T The Final

First topic message reminder :

After two months of competition, over 2500 votes, over 5500 comments, a voting scandal, a restarted format and the Gavin Hastings situation, the v2 GOAT has come to its climax with the final matchup of the tournament today to decide who the v2 posters will crown their greatest of all time.

Yesterday’s two semi-finals were two of the most closely contested matches of the tournament with football, tennis, cricket and boxing represented in the final four, in match 1 Mohammed Ali took on Don Bradman and with the voting neck and neck for the majority of the day it was eventually the self-proclaimed greatest of all time that took the initiative and became the first entrant to secure his spot in the final. In the second match grand slam champion Roger Federer took on two time world cup winner Pele, in another intriguing battle that was extremely close all day neither man could establish a lead of any note, eventually Federer sealed his spot in the final by just two votes finishing on 44 to Pele’s 42.

Bradman exits the competition defeating Zinedine Zidane, and Harry Greb in round 1, Daley Thompson, Brain Lara and Eddy Merckx in round 2, Sugar Ray Robinson and Usain Bolt in the last 16 , Michael Phelps, Tiger Woods and Michael Johnson in the last 8.

Pele’s scalps include Michael Schumacher, Stephen Hendry, Phil Taylor, Martina Navratilova and Wayne Gretzky.

Today’s final sees a clash of styles, generation and sports as boxing takes on tennis to decide the v2 G.O.A.T

Ali vs. Federer and emancipator vs 6oldenbhoy in the battle of the GOAT champions

Please vote for the v2 G.O.A.T

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Well yeah some are. we all know that dude. Its like cycling and athletics(even footy). They have become a bit tainted IMO. But anyway - that is nothing to do with Ali himself

Right, whats next? Food GOAT?

Team Sport Goat.

Sandwich goat

Goat G.O.A.T

The best sandwich is the sundried tomato chicken on granary with salad down my local deli.

No contest

A huge thank you to MtotheC who has done brilliantly with this competition.

If only we had listened to Ali himself at the beginning of this, we could have all saved ourselves some time!

Best looking woman ever ever, worth it surely just to see Super diss a few supermodels as plain.
Id throw Audrey Hepburn and Michelle Pfeiffer in for starters.

MtotheC

Thanks MtotherC

Lots of good debate, which certainly opened my eyes.

Next up?

Music GOAT?

MtotheC

Good work dude

You won't be surprised to find Diggers that Supermodels don't do much for me, occasionally they are pretty, but often look androgenous or child like, not my cup of tea.
Must be the stupidest job in the world and fewer smiles around than during A Nine Chins Woods round.

So there we have it! What a final, neck and neck all the way, voting split right down the middle with each man taking a lead at certain points throughout the 24 hour vote.

A worthy final to finish off the tournament.

Muhammad Ali is crowned the v2 G.O.A.T a big well done to 6oldenbhoy who's championed his man all the way to the final and victory!

I will put up a review thread up at some point over the next few days detailing the v2 GOAT story.

I hope you all enjoyed it and found the debates interesting.

A big thank you to everyone that not only took the time to comment but those that wrote articles which were very good and in some cases excellent.

The GOAT Board

It certainly kept me away from doing any work for a while. Cheers

Yep cheers guys, well done and in the main all very well behaved. So well done us as well....even if we did come up with completely the wrong winner.....

Diggers wrote:Yep cheers guys, well done and in the main all very well behaved. So well done us as well....even if we did come up with completely the wrong winner.....

Diggers wrote:Yep cheers guys, well done and in the main all very well behaved. So well done us as well....even if we did come up with completely the wrong winner.....

Don't worry digs, when they do a freak GOAT, your double jointed, long bodied, short legged, Sasquatch loverboy phelps, will be odds on.

Didnt Ali have freakishly big hands ? He certainly had a freakishly big gob.

Your confusing him with pat jennings... Or kenny Everett.

Hoggy_Bear wrote:I can (just about) accept Ali over Bradman, but Federer over Pele? Really?

I guess Federer should have won this poll hands down, didn't expect him to go down to Ali, and I forgot to cast my vote as well.

@iC... your vote counts.

@MtotheC... Glad to see the effort and debates, despite the occasional contentiousness, of a good set of articles. It has been a wonderful learning experience.

invisiblecooler are you serious? Federer doesn't even belong on the same street as Ali.

Ali v Bradman should have been the final. I could just about accept Ali edging that one, though I'd be disappointed, but no way in hell is Roger Federer a greater sportsman than Sir Donald Bradman.

I forgot to vote on this final, too. Suffice to say Ali has my vote.

Not sure I'd agree there, Fists. Surely even if you'd pick Bradman over Federer, you'd have to acknowledge that the Swiss is at least in the same elite bracket as the Don?

Bradman would always be a contender for the sporting GOAT honour, for me, but so would Federer.

Elite yes. So far apart from anyone else? No. Top 4 I'd agree.

Many thanks to MofC for organising and reorganising the competition. I took part in the earlier debates, but then time constraints meant...

Overall I think the top 4 were just about right, but I have slight reservations still about Federer that his achievements great though they look now haven't as yet stood the test of time. What if (unlikely I know but...) Djokovic goes on to win 20 slams?

I would then have had Mercx, Phelps, SRR and Nicklaus in my last 8, with (whisper it) Jordan not too far off. In particular I feel Mercx and Phelps (who are a long way above their peers in truly global sports) were undervalued during this process, probably due to the british centric nature of the boards and that cycling and swimming are relatively minor sports here.

Woods and IMO Redgrave got too far in particular. There is no objective way to rate Woods as the greatest golfer yet (if he goes on to become no 1 and win a few more majors then maybe), Redgrave was a british patriotic vote a lot of the time, fantastic ambassador though he is.

Of the top 4 I would have ranked them
Bradman
Ali
Pélé
Federer

but with not much in it.

Anyway it's been fun following the discussions. Once again thanks for all the hard work.

Ah so it's the greatest of all time INCLUDING the future...

Wasn't Mercx a drug cheat?

Stella wrote:Wasn't Mercx a drug cheat?

Yes, but:
1) it wasn't exactly systematic organised doping along the Armstrong lines. In fact the products Mercx was caught with aren't actually performance enhancing at all.
2) If you go down that route, I'm not willing to sanction anyone of the top 8 I mentioned bar Bradman and maybe, just maybe Pélé. Major question marks over all the others IMO.

I'd argue no, because:

1. He was never caught doing drugs or convicted of drug use, distribution or possession

2. See above

None of us can know for sure who has done what behind the scenes. All we can do is go by what they achieved. Armstrong has had his achievements withdrawn from the history books, leaving Eddy as the clear GOAT of cycling. And unless something extraordinary happens, he'll remain just that forever.

I don't even like cycling that much, I just hate seeing people labelled as drug users when none of us actually know the answer.

Azzy he was caught 4 times mate...(I am not sure who gave you the infomation that he didnt- but he did)

Mike. He was caught and others havent been. The only line we can draw is between the ones that have been caught and the ones that havent.

In merx case its quite sad because he was someone that got caught more than once in a time when riders were only very randomly tested. Not systamatically as they are today.. So just imagine how many times he could have been caught..

The punishment wasnt strong enough to make him stop. he could just keep getting away with it.

If someone had been caught once I may be lenient. But in this case I will never ever in a million years put merx above armstrong., Same boat, same sport, same type of person, both drug cheats.

PS. i just noticed you made a point that the drugs he was caught for wasnt enhancing. You need to do your research. They were 100% enhancing.

mystiroakey wrote:
Mike. He was caught and others havent been. The only line we can draw is between the ones that have been caught and the ones that havent.

I disagree. I will draw my own lines thank you very much.

The most helpful drugs/doping systems which exist for cycling (that we know of) are EPO, Blood doping, Testosterone and Cortisone. They help endurance, recovery and suppressing pain. Cyclists for years beat the testers consistently (despite the fact that there was already far more testing in cycling than most other sports); there are other sports (tennis primarily, but also of course football, rugby union etc.) where the above 3 qualities are much sought after. Given the enormous sums of money at stake in such sports, the paucity (or non-existence) of drug testing and the ease with which it was possible to beat the testers (read Tyler Hamilton's book), you would have to be very naive or stupid to think there are not far many more skeltons in the cupboards than we know about. Without even talking about various rumours of cover-ups. Or personal anecdotes from players trying to make the grade.

mystiroakey wrote:PS. i just noticed you made a point that the drugs he was caught for wasnt enhancing. You need to do your research. They were 100% enhancing.

I think you need to do some research. Mercx was caught 3 times, not 4; the first time there are serious misgivings about the results and the way they were handled, and the second time for norephredine, which was on the banned list but is not performance enhancing. None of the products he took were anything like as enhancing as EPO, etc. - their physical effect on his ability would be very limited indeed and any benefits would more likely be exclusively mental (if guilty, if he thought he was gaining an advantage that could give him a "placebo" advantage, for want of a better phrase). there is no evidence or suggestion the doping was anything like on the scale that Armstrong did. To compare the two is ridiculous and ignorant.

Well that told me

Having read up on it, one seems to have been a stitch up, and another didn't matter. Only the last one was serious, and was at the very end of his career. He's still good in my eyes.

Mike seriously you are just sugar coating a drug cheat , The guy was caught using 3 times(i read somewhere he was caught another time and I forgot the reasons behind it and why it wasnt recorded)

The ignorance is from you and only you.

Lance armstrong was part of something and was caught. His titles were stripped. If merx was around in that day he would have out done or tried to out do him in any way possible There are the same type(win at all costs)just from different eras.

You need to stop your ignoirance and understand he was caught using perormance enhancing drugs. end of story. You can try and make out it wasnt all you want. Just because drugs wernt as advanced(didnt work as well) back then does NOT make him any better than todays drug cheats.

The world wants one person to blame. And armstrong is the man to take all of that blame.. If merx and the rest of them wernt using from before and were honrable sportsman. Or the aurothities did something about the clear problems back in that day. Armstrong the drug cheat wouldnt have happened!

mystiroakey wrote:
The ignorance is from you and only you.

Where exactly am I being ignorant?

The issue with seeing everything in black and white is that you often twist facts to suit your story... I admit perfectly it is very likely Mercx took banned substances, probably knowingly and quite possibly on a lot more times than he was caught. The point I am making is:
1) the items he was caught taking weren't anything like as enhancing as the likes of EPO, blood doping, etc.
2) the doping systems he used weren't anything like as sophisticated or organised as those used by the likes of Armstrong.
3) If you really want to delve into examining drug usage in sport you won't like what you find.

I have provided circumstancial evidence in favour of those 3 points. There is much more evidence in favour of point 3 but because of libel laws I can't go into it. Instead of throwing platitudes and insults around, could you answer those basic premises precisely? If not, then I fear debate is futile

anserwed the first two plenty Mike.

The 3rd one is ridiculas. What are you trying to suggest. That I and the world think there are no other drug cheats

He took performance enhancing drugs and was caught on numerous ocassions. Just deal with it mate

You're the one who said "the only line we can draw is..." My 3rd point is underlining that this is a silly viewpoint.

Do I take it that you therefore think anybody caught with any banned substance (there is a difference between banned substance and PED by the way, which is my first point) is equally culpable? That, IMO, is also a bit silly. You cannot compare for example Shane Warne taking a diuretic to appear slim (his story, but it rings true) and Lance Armstrong's systematic organised cheating and bullying. can you? If you accept that there are degrees of culpability, then you have to accept that the evidence shows Mercx to be far less culpable than Armstrong. And IMO than many others on this list which we will find out about in the fullness of time (another reason why judging someone too soon is fraught with danger).

And so the final GOAT thread descends...maybe we could have a new thread for cycling and all praise MtotheC for his incredible work

"You're the one who said "the only line we can draw is..." My 3rd point is underlining that this is a silly viewpoint."

look its the only sensible option. Because we don't know for certain in other cases. We can all suspect but we don't know for sure. I sadly suspect every cyclist ever!! and I couldn't put any of them on a goat list because of that..

I would give the odd person a chance If they were caught 'once' using steroids to get fit quicker after an injury for example, or non performance enhancing drugs.(like Shane Warne- not caught for that off course - he was caught using dietetics, but that's a masking agent!- so put two and two together- it could have been cocaine on a night out or possibly enhancing steroids to get fit quicker)- well that's my take(dont buy the 'slim' excuse!)

Mercxk got caught plenty and didn't learn his lesson from the first time he was caught. He got caught at the end of his career as well. He was systematically taking drugs throughout his career. Yes there was a reason for this. Every other rider was also taking them!!

If he didn't he wouldn't have earnt his living.. Sad but true..

All the cyclists used speed or types of speed during the races back in that day. Its performance enhancing and yes they only did it for a level playing field..It doesn't make it any better though.

Azzy Mahmood wrote:And so the final GOAT thread descends...maybe we could have a new thread for cycling and all praise MtotheC for his incredible work

We have all praised him mate..

Not all, I hadn't until that point

I don't think we really want the thread from the final taking away from the final itself, nor the tourney in general. This isn't the place to argue the toss over doping in sport is it?

Ok..

Fair play.

mystiroakey wrote:

Mercxk got caught plenty and didn't learn his lesson from the first time he was caught. He got caught at the end of his career as well. He was systematically taking drugs throughout his career. Yes there was a reason for this. Every other rider was also taking them!!

If he didn't he wouldn't have earnt his living.. Sad but true..

All the cyclists used speed or types of speed during the races back in that day. Its performance enhancing and yes they only did it for a level playing field..It doesn't make it any better though.

According to your logic you can't say Mercx systematically doped, but that he took banned substances three times in his career...

Please please don't claim that drugs make anything a level playing field. They don't.

I think you are misunderstanding the logic on purpose to be honest Mike.

I have said he got caught 4 times in his carrer(once wasnt during a race in 77)

I also noted that the chances are is that he took drugs alot more times than just the times he got caught.

And that it is crazy to imagine someone being able to get caught so many times today and keep cracking on..

Also I Dont understand your level playing field comment.

Its a simple premise Mike. If many that you are competiting against are taking PEDS, then many will follow just on that premise- to level the field in there mind... Not sure why you are taking the comment in a different way tbh..

Btw just forget it mate.

I am not going to go easy on Merkcx. He is a proven convicted drug cheat on more than 1 occasion. Cycling is a messed up sport in reagrds to this. I am not narrow minded enough to put all the blame on to one person(armstrong).

You can sugar coat the issue in regards to him, you can forget it happened.

Fine by me.

Btw I do understand why they have done what they have done. There is no hate with me. Its one of those things.. Its cyclings problem. And if Lance wasnt caught the next person would have and would have had all the blame attached.

Cycling should have sorted this out a long time ago. Its sad

You have said words to the effect that the only way to be certain whether someone has taken drugs is if they get caught. Ergo, you can only be certain that Mercx took drugs 3 times during his career. That is not "systematic".

I'm not sugar coating or excusing anything, I stated early on it is probable that Mercx took PEDs knowingly, and possibly throughout his career (in the balance of probabilities it is likely IMO). But cycling is a lot less messed up than many other sports out there IMO as things currently stand. At least the authorities in cycling are making efforts to catch the cheats. Other sports should try to get their house in order. And casual fans like yourself who seemingly accuse the entire cycling world of being guilty by association, but then say in the same breath that you can't make judgements about other athletes from other sports because you don't know... Well that's part of the problem.

Mike Your baffling me dude What makes you suggest I am not willing to judge other sports? You are constantly trying to change the goal posts because you were called up on the incorrect statement- "he wasnt caught taking Enhancing Drugs"

Just get over it

A very good article you might want to read Mike.

"But even the legends used performance enhancing drugs, Eddy Merckx tested positive for fencamfamin a central nervous system stimulant during the 1969 Giro d' Italia and was given the boot.

So come on. Do your homework before you shoot your mouth next time. Amphetamines are performance enhancing drugs and that is why they are on the prohibited list"

http://velovortmax.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/amphetamines-are-performance-enhancing.html

Fists of Fury wrote:invisiblecooler are you serious? Federer doesn't even belong on the same street as Ali.

Ali v Bradman should have been the final. I could just about accept Ali edging that one, though I'd be disappointed, but no way in hell is Roger Federer a greater sportsman than Sir Donald Bradman.

I forgot to vote on this final, too. Suffice to say Ali has my vote.

Well FOF its really difficult to say how much Bradman would have dominated on versatile conditions and quality of opponents and with variety of formats, well Bradman was the greatest of his era there is no clear cut conclusion it could be the same in every era. For me RF has done enough to edge Bradman in their respective sport.

Hmm, think my final two would have been Bradman and Gretsky but not sure who I'd have picked as the winner out of those two.

Any votes changed on this since the latest evidence of fixing in Alis career has come out?