Scotland - still in decline

First topic message reminder :

Having watched 4 games in this 6 Nations I am staggered by my countrymen and their opinion we have gone forward. This year I feel has been the worst set of performances I can ever remember the Scotland team playing

Yes we won 2 matches and scored a couple of tries. But I am afraid to say they were flukes. Yes I said it. Italy were all over us, and if not for complete break away, against the run of play tries, and their butchering easy chances, they would have and should have beaten us.

Ireland - well we all know we had no right to win that one. Not one line break! 27% possession, their kickers all over the place, more butchering easy 2 on ones and generally us looking as likely to score a try in 1,000 mins of play, yet a pinched result
I will take these wins and have a slight warm glow not picking up a wooden spoon - but that is it.

These fluky wins should have allowed us to shake the shackles off and give it a go. But each game we get worst - what is wrong in our teams heads, why are they afraid to go for it?

Last year, we had a dominate set of forwards, but could not use the backs. We competed the breakdown, got turnovers, looked dangerous but failed to finish off chances. This year. Nothing. Zero denada.

We keep talking about scoring tries - well last year we scored some tries in the first 2 games, then none after - see a pattern.

As a comparison, would like to show the main areas 2012 vs 2013

Scrum - About even as last year, won some, lost some, no real dominance - some good games
Breakdown - 2012 the winner - 2013 not even come to the party
Line out - 2012 - we were a menace last year but only one game this year been very strong
Turnovers 2012 - Rennie and Barclay managed loads last year - how we miss them
Line breaks 2012 - have any occurred this year? 2012 we made loads but failed to finish them off
Tries - 2013 - more tries, but hardly any of them constructed, all break aways or mistakes
Defence - 2012 - Our mi filed has been a revolving door for runners in 2013. Some good scramble defence, but anyone that says our defence has been good should look again
Tactics - 2012 - we had some in 2012 - more than just boot the ball away
Team selection - draw - both coaches playing players out of position - Brown and Lamot namely
Dangerous backs - draw - if we do not bother to keep the ball how are they dangerous - in potential maybe


I asked the question were Scotland was a few games ago, and the evidence seem clear - still going backwards at a rate of knots (compared to other teams) and unless we really sort out our tactics, I fear for our future

Yours

a very down Scotsman

An honest and good man - promoted beyond his competence. ~We can see the measure of the man in that he did not insist on all the pay he was contractually due.

Back on the 10 subject, I can sort of see where everyone is coming from. Mucking about with players in different positions at test match level is a bit of a tricky one. But in some cases it is the right thing to do. I think it is more common in SH as many players are more versatile. O'connor for instance is just a bloody good player. I think he has been great at 10 despite being arguably in the top 5 in terms of wingers in the world today.

As far as heathcote, weir and Jackson go. I think it really is wide open. All three have strengths and weaknesses and I think Johnson or who ever takes the Scotland reins should spend the next year playing all three and pick one to be our World Cup first pref 10. Then the other two will have something to work hard for and the lucky 10 who is picked as first pref will have to work hard to keep his spot leading up to the World Cup.

Other nations seem to try to settle with one ten, I mean for example... Nz - dan carter... Backup in piri weepu etc

Ireland - ROG, intro of sexton.. Then suddenly sexton every game. With ROG as backup.

Australia - giteau for ages, before him Larkham I believe. They're now in a similar situation to us, they have several guys who could fill the 10 spot in Barnes, Beale and o'connor plus Harris but I think he wants to be a 12 rather than at 10.

I suppose it really is down to the head coach and the structure he wants to create.

bsando wrote:Back on the 10 subject, I can sort of see where everyone is coming from. Mucking about with players in different positions at test match level is a bit of a tricky one. But in some cases it is the right thing to do. I think it is more common in SH as many players are more versatile. O'connor for instance is just a bloody good player. I think he has been great at 10 despite being arguably in the top 5 in terms of wingers in the world today.

As far as heathcote, weir and Jackson go. I think it really is wide open. All three have strengths and weaknesses and I think Johnson or who ever takes the Scotland reins should spend the next year playing all three and pick one to be our World Cup first pref 10. Then the other two will have something to work hard for and the lucky 10 who is picked as first pref will have to work hard to keep his spot leading up to the World Cup.

Other nations seem to try to settle with one ten, I mean for example... Nz - dan carter... Backup in piri weepu etc

Ireland - ROG, intro of sexton.. Then suddenly sexton every game. With ROG as backup.

Australia - giteau for ages, before him Larkham I believe. They're now in a similar situation to us, they have several guys who could fill the 10 spot in Barnes, Beale and o'connor plus Harris but I think he wants to be a 12 rather than at 10.

I suppose it really is down to the head coach and the structure he wants to create.

Scrumhalf

Andy Robinson

Overall record Played: 35 Won: 15 Drawn: 1 Lost: 19 Win percentage: 42.9%

Six Nations record Played: 15 Won: 2 Drawn: 1 Lost: 12 Win percentage: 13.3%

World Cup record Played: 4 Won: 2 Drawn: 0 Lost: 2 Win percentage: 50%

TJ wrote:Robinson - cost us a year or more of development being so reluctant to pick the form youngsters. Last 6 nations - Weir had masterminded the demolition of the england saxons - a much better team on paper, laidlaw was in great form for edinburgh. He picks Parks. its at the point it was clear he had lost it - many of us knew it before this.

Judge me on results he said - a whitewash in the 6 nations, 12th in the world rankings and failure at the WC. We judged you on your results and found you wanting

Wow you paint a nasty picyure there TJ. Sure weir played well for Saxons, and Laidlaw was on song then, but I can see why he chose parks. He had been Scotland's 10 for a long while, i mean he was Scotland's ten. Both laidlaw and weir were uncapped. I was happy to see parks play that game, he was the obvious choice. The one person who failed that day was rennie for butchering a simple two on one pass. Yet parks seems to get the blame for that loss and a charge down from charge down Charlie.

Okay so Robinson could have brought on weir or Laidlaw faster, but he had his sights on Jackson. I think some people on here were just blinded with dislike towards both Robinson and parks that they failed to realise that playing weir or Laidlaw, both uncapped, vs England, a huge fixture, was perhaps just a little bit crazy really. Or darn right brave. Which ever you think. But I thought picking parks for that game was the sensible decision.

flyhalffactory wrote:

bsando wrote:I still don't understand why so many Scottish posters on here hate andy Robinson so much. Yes, he did make a few selection blunders and yes he should not have asked parks back for the Calcutta cup match last year. But he is a big reason why Scotland are not knocking the ball on every second phase of play and have more confidence as a team. He scraped the dog turd from Scotland's boots.mthat crap had been lingering there for years, from all the awful coaches and lack of quality players throughout the noughties. He got Scotland into positions where they could score trys and win games, he tried several different game plans out and got the best out of lplayers who would never make it into other teams starting xv. Just saying, I think he deserves some credit for his efforts.

Spot on........ people forget (or just haven't a clue what AR installed into Scottish Rugby from the time he was at Edinburgh right to the end, who do they think brought Denton, Hogg, Scott, Brown, Horne etc etc through the ranks (and who do they think selected them), our youth policy was a joke, our A team was a joke and yet he made a point of having input at the very grass roots of our game. This year has seen a marked downturn in our pack and set-piece, the youngsters now.

Amazing that one or two selection issues can be emphasised I mean AR brings in Jackson and he is criticised for bring a youngster in, so he selects Parks again when he has no real alternative and he gets slammed for that, and yet the bold moves to bring Scott in instead of Morrison, Hogg instead of Mossy Denton pulled into the backrow, away wins against SH opposition.

its the pack thats letting us down at the moment

The facts rather than the 'fond memories':

Denton - handed a start to Denton, form no8 in Scotland

Hogg - not picked in 22 for England opener, with out-of-form RLamont preferred (not even getting a game for his French club and released shortly thereafter), Hogg unquestionably the form fullback; bench for Wales, but when Evans gets injured early, comes on and shows everyone what they've been missing

Scott - despite being the form 12 in Scotland, Morrison was preferred for the tournament at IC; travelled as 24th man for the Ireland game, and when NdL didn't recover, took a spot on the bench; brought on when Lee Jones was carried off, played at wing and OC for 19 minutes - neither positions he'd ever been seen in at club level even; dropped from squad for last shambles against Italy

Brown - Picked for 2012 summer tour to Australia and Islands - bench for Australia game, SLamont injured early and Brown does well; dropped for Fiji and Samoa game with an out-of-form Max Evans taking his place

Horne - never selected by Robinson, and a Glasgow player?

Stand-off debacle - Jackson and Parks sharing gametime at RWC, Parks wants to retire after RWC as he can see future is with youngsters, persuaded reluctantly by Robinson to give it one more go, has a shocker in opener against England despite Laidlaw being the in-form 10 in Scotland, with Parks hung out like a kipper thereafter

Bsando - Both Weir and Laidlaw were the obvious choices - either would have been right. As soon as Parks was selected it was clear that Robinson was scared to go after an England team that was there for the taking - attacking them with the attacking in form players. Parks himself knew it was wrong - and Robinsons treatment of him was awful.

Parks was a bad selection - Laidlaw the obvious one, Weir the brave / attacking one.

He was not critised for bring Jackson in as youngster - he was critised for not playing Weir who had been keeping Jackson out of the Glasgow side with great performances

Weir should have ten caps by now or more. Robinson nealry destryoed his confidence - picking him for squads a but not giving him any gametime clearly saying he did not trust him

flyhalffactory wrote:

Simply and utterly not true, ........ get your facts right before you add a riposte

1. His previous coaching roles especially when involved in Scottish Rugby has a bearing on his then appointment, he was instrumental in pulling the youth development program closer to national team, hence the Hoggs, Scotts, Hornes of this world wouldn't have had the opportunity if he hadnt stood his ground on more investment at grass roots

2. Morrison was injured for one game, and Scott was already in the squad before he was injured. Mossy was not retired before Hogg was called up into the training camp prior to selection

3. Tell me when he brought Parks back in who we had as an alternative then, Jackson had been tried and it wasnt good, Weir or Laidlaw weren't ready. I wouldn't have brought Parks back myself and it was a poor move byt I cannae see who we had for that game

Facts, yes, curious things!

1 Hogg, Scott & Horne were part of Scotland's youth programmes at various age groups long before Robinson had any influence (if he ever did at all) on "grass roots" rugby in Scotland. Hogg and Horne were both part of the Glasgow academy programme and woud have had little to do with Robinson

2 Morrison was injured and SLamont played. Scott was not in the squad. He eventually received a call to the bench for th Ireland game, replacing Lee Jones and playing at OC and wing, neither position he'd even played for Edinburgh at that stage - he was then dispensed with completely for the final game against Italy

3 Laidlaw was indeed ready - in fact he played in the following game when Robinson dropped Parks after the England debacle, picking Laidlaw instead with Parks announcing his international retirement and taking the can

Facts, curious things, especially when used badly

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Risky take it you are on an i phone on a train - or going over a waterfall in a barrel - anyway once I deciphered your post I agree with you completely. Add to that the way Robinson treated Al Kellock at RWC11 and Dunc Weir on the Aus/Fiji/Samoa tour and you have the complete set of idiocy from him (Robinson obviously). Don't get me started on Knock on Nick either !

I hate my fing phone for writing. Especially when in my barrel

TJ wrote:An honest and good man - promoted beyond his competence. ~We can see the measure of the man in that he did not insist on all the pay he was contractually due.

I agree with that too. Shame as if it was passion the provided the wins he would be a giant

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

bsando wrote:Back on the 10 subject, I can sort of see where everyone is coming from. Mucking about with players in different positions at test match level is a bit of a tricky one. But in some cases it is the right thing to do. I think it is more common in SH as many players are more versatile. O'connor for instance is just a bloody good player. I think he has been great at 10 despite being arguably in the top 5 in terms of wingers in the world today.

As far as heathcote, weir and Jackson go. I think it really is wide open. All three have strengths and weaknesses and I think Johnson or who ever takes the Scotland reins should spend the next year playing all three and pick one to be our World Cup first pref 10. Then the other two will have something to work hard for and the lucky 10 who is picked as first pref will have to work hard to keep his spot leading up to the World Cup.

Other nations seem to try to settle with one ten, I mean for example... Nz - dan carter... Backup in piri weepu etc

Ireland - ROG, intro of sexton.. Then suddenly sexton every game. With ROG as backup.

Australia - giteau for ages, before him Larkham I believe. They're now in a similar situation to us, they have several guys who could fill the 10 spot in Barnes, Beale and o'connor plus Harris but I think he wants to be a 12 rather than at 10.

I suppose it really is down to the head coach and the structure he wants to create.

Scrumhalf

And fly-half asbo. Remember World Cup? He was mr fix-it

But anyway, my point was we need our own Scottish DC and a mr-fix it for the next World Cup!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Simply and utterly not true, ........ get your facts right before you add a riposte

1. His previous coaching roles especially when involved in Scottish Rugby has a bearing on his then appointment, he was instrumental in pulling the youth development program closer to national team, hence the Hoggs, Scotts, Hornes of this world wouldn't have had the opportunity if he hadnt stood his ground on more investment at grass roots

2. Morrison was injured for one game, and Scott was already in the squad before he was injured. Mossy was not retired before Hogg was called up into the training camp prior to selection

3. Tell me when he brought Parks back in who we had as an alternative then, Jackson had been tried and it wasnt good, Weir or Laidlaw weren't ready. I wouldn't have brought Parks back myself and it was a poor move byt I cannae see who we had for that game

Facts, yes, curious things!

1 Hogg, Scott & Horne were part of Scotland's youth programmes at various age groups long before Robinson had any influence (if he ever did at all) on "grass roots" rugby in Scotland. Hogg and Horne were both part of the Glasgow academy programme and woud have had little to do with Robinson

2 Morrison was injured and SLamont played. Scott was not in the squad. He eventually received a call to the bench for th Ireland game, replacing Lee Jones and playing at OC and wing, neither position he'd even played for Edinburgh at that stage - he was then dispensed with completely for the final game against Italy

3 Laidlaw was indeed ready - in fact he played in the following game when Robinson dropped Parks after the England debacle, picking Laidlaw instead with Parks announcing his international retirement and taking the can

Facts, curious things, especially when used badly

Facts are facts (I am sure I can trawl them out if need be)

1. Robinson changed no forced the remit when he took over at Edinburgh, it was quite clear that he went to the top and pushed for increased funding at school level and above, he was involved at youth meeting even and in 2007 (thats SIX YEARS AGO where was Scott at that time remind me!!) he was in charge of our A team..... Scott was clearly at that level and many others.

2. It was clear that at the England game, most people would have played if fit Hogg, Jones, Jackson, Laidlaw, against England who were beginning to construct a pretty decent side together that very well could have made or destroyed their young careers. Ramont and Schlong both could be argued brought a balance that Scott / NDL couldnt have last year.

3. Scott was in the training day and albeit not in the squad was on standby, Scott has played on the wing and at 13 for us by the way. This time last year Scott was not defensively strong enough for Tualagi who often run between the centres and Robinson could see that........ by the way that not a fact just my opinion as someone who has watched him week in week out from an early age

4 Laidlaw ready is not a fact its just an opinion, and one that AR decided against England he wasn't. Was he right? who knows

Riskysports wrote:

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Risky take it you are on an i phone on a train - or going over a waterfall in a barrel - anyway once I deciphered your post I agree with you completely. Add to that the way Robinson treated Al Kellock at RWC11 and Dunc Weir on the Aus/Fiji/Samoa tour and you have the complete set of idiocy from him (Robinson obviously). Don't get me started on Knock on Nick either !

I hate my fing phone for writing. Especially when in my barrel

21C we all know your stance on AR we have heard it time after bl00dy time

Kellock wasnt selected for a reason, if you cant remember then I suggest you have selective memory, and remind me why Weir wasnt selected and how we did on that tour

bsando wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

bsando wrote:Back on the 10 subject, I can sort of see where everyone is coming from. Mucking about with players in different positions at test match level is a bit of a tricky one. But in some cases it is the right thing to do. I think it is more common in SH as many players are more versatile. O'connor for instance is just a bloody good player. I think he has been great at 10 despite being arguably in the top 5 in terms of wingers in the world today.

As far as heathcote, weir and Jackson go. I think it really is wide open. All three have strengths and weaknesses and I think Johnson or who ever takes the Scotland reins should spend the next year playing all three and pick one to be our World Cup first pref 10. Then the other two will have something to work hard for and the lucky 10 who is picked as first pref will have to work hard to keep his spot leading up to the World Cup.

Other nations seem to try to settle with one ten, I mean for example... Nz - dan carter... Backup in piri weepu etc

Ireland - ROG, intro of sexton.. Then suddenly sexton every game. With ROG as backup.

Australia - giteau for ages, before him Larkham I believe. They're now in a similar situation to us, they have several guys who could fill the 10 spot in Barnes, Beale and o'connor plus Harris but I think he wants to be a 12 rather than at 10.

I suppose it really is down to the head coach and the structure he wants to create.

Scrumhalf

And fly-half asbo. Remember World Cup? He was mr fix-it

But anyway, my point was we need our own Scottish DC and a mr-fix it for the next World Cup!

Behind injured back-up 10s Aaron Cruden and Colin Slade? Weepu was all that was left in their squad that could provide any kind of cover which is why they called up Donald Duck

flyhalffactory wrote:

Riskysports wrote:

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Risky take it you are on an i phone on a train - or going over a waterfall in a barrel - anyway once I deciphered your post I agree with you completely. Add to that the way Robinson treated Al Kellock at RWC11 and Dunc Weir on the Aus/Fiji/Samoa tour and you have the complete set of idiocy from him (Robinson obviously). Don't get me started on Knock on Nick either !

I hate my fing phone for writing. Especially when in my barrel

21C we all know your stance on AR we have heard it time after bl00dy time

Kellock wasnt selected for a reason, if you cant remember then I suggest you have selective memory, and remind me why Weir wasnt selected and how we did on that tour

Kellock went from RWC captain (and presumably guaranteed starter) to being behind Gray and Hamilton at lock, with Hines preferred on the blindside

The summer tour was all well and good, with a fine win against Aus, a decent result against Fiji and a narrow escape against Samoa - unfortunately it papered over the very same cracks which were then brutally exposed in the AIs

World ranking at start of Robinson's reign = 9th
World ranking at end of Robinson's reign = 12th

"Judge me on the RWC" he said - we did, he was found wanting - first exit before QF in Scotland's history

flyhalffactory wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Simply and utterly not true, ........ get your facts right before you add a riposte

1. His previous coaching roles especially when involved in Scottish Rugby has a bearing on his then appointment, he was instrumental in pulling the youth development program closer to national team, hence the Hoggs, Scotts, Hornes of this world wouldn't have had the opportunity if he hadnt stood his ground on more investment at grass roots

2. Morrison was injured for one game, and Scott was already in the squad before he was injured. Mossy was not retired before Hogg was called up into the training camp prior to selection

3. Tell me when he brought Parks back in who we had as an alternative then, Jackson had been tried and it wasnt good, Weir or Laidlaw weren't ready. I wouldn't have brought Parks back myself and it was a poor move byt I cannae see who we had for that game

Facts, yes, curious things!

1 Hogg, Scott & Horne were part of Scotland's youth programmes at various age groups long before Robinson had any influence (if he ever did at all) on "grass roots" rugby in Scotland. Hogg and Horne were both part of the Glasgow academy programme and woud have had little to do with Robinson

2 Morrison was injured and SLamont played. Scott was not in the squad. He eventually received a call to the bench for th Ireland game, replacing Lee Jones and playing at OC and wing, neither position he'd even played for Edinburgh at that stage - he was then dispensed with completely for the final game against Italy

3 Laidlaw was indeed ready - in fact he played in the following game when Robinson dropped Parks after the England debacle, picking Laidlaw instead with Parks announcing his international retirement and taking the can

Facts, curious things, especially when used badly

Facts are facts (I am sure I can trawl them out if need be)

1. Robinson changed no forced the remit when he took over at Edinburgh, it was quite clear that he went to the top and pushed for increased funding at school level and above, he was involved at youth meeting even and in 2007 (thats SIX YEARS AGO where was Scott at that time remind me!!) he was in charge of our A team..... Scott was clearly at that level and many others.

2. It was clear that at the England game, most people would have played if fit Hogg, Jones, Jackson, Laidlaw, against England who were beginning to construct a pretty decent side together that very well could have made or destroyed their young careers. Ramont and Schlong both could be argued brought a balance that Scott / NDL couldnt have last year.

3. Scott was in the training day and albeit not in the squad was on standby, Scott has played on the wing and at 13 for us by the way. This time last year Scott was not defensively strong enough for Tualagi who often run between the centres and Robinson could see that........ by the way that not a fact just my opinion as someone who has watched him week in week out from an early age

4 Laidlaw ready is not a fact its just an opinion, and one that AR decided against England he wasn't. Was he right? who knows

1 The person responsible for reviewing and changing the structures was actually Graham Lowe as Performance Director.

2 "England who were beginning to construct a pretty decent side together" - no, it was Lancaster's first game in charge after the debacle of the RWC, with him as interim coach and England as ripe for plucking as at any time (borne out by their pretty average performance on the day). Scott was the in form 12 at Edinburgh and in Scotland, and various excuses about "law exams" were trundled out to justify his non-selection and sticking with Morrison (then SLamont when he got injured). NdL played at OC (except against Ireland when he was taken ill and replaced by Evans).

3 Scott would have been up against the attacking maestro that is Brad Barritt - how many caps did he have at that point? I'll give you a clue - not many. I'm going to need you to find those Embra games last season when Scott played at OC or wing (note, that's not this season, when he has featured at OC, without much success). Edit: have done the work for you - a grand total of 3 league OC appearances with 0 on the wing by the start of te 6Ns. There's no question Scott should have been introduced earlier, and at 12.

4 if Laidlaw wasn't ready, how come he was selected a week later to face a greater challenge in Wales AWAY, when Parks was jettisoned?


Anyway, i'll leave it there - I only intervened to stop you and bsando re-writing history and trying to turn Robinson into a half-way decent international coach - he wasn't, and he failed twice

Am not quite as down about it all, Risky.

Let's compare the two lineups - the one facing France in Paris 2 years ago and the likely one for this week. You'll recall that we lost 34-21 in that game but we scored 3 tries.

2010/2011 - 2012/2013

15. Hugo Southwell - Stuart Hogg
14. Nikki Walker - Sean Maitland
13. Joe Ansbro - Sean Lamont
12. Nick De Luca - Matt Scott
11. Max Evans - Tim Visser

10. Dan Parks - Duncan Weir
9. Rory Lawson - Greig Laidlaw

8. Kelly Brown - Johnny Beattie
7. John Barclay - Kelly Brown
6. Nathan Hines - Rob Harley/John Barclay
5. Alastair Kellock (capt) - Jim Hamilton
4. Richie Gray - Richie Gray (it would have been but for injury)
3. Euan Murray - Euan Murray
2. Ross Ford - Ross Ford
1. Allan Jacobsen - Ryan Grant

Several things strike me:

i) The number of players played out of position by AR where not forced by injury.
ii) How much more effective our 9-10 hinge should be now at scoring tries.
iii) The mindblowing increase in quality of our backline.

We cannot believe that this team isn't a huge improvement in previous years. A new coach will come in and determine which structures work best for this bunch of individuals, who will then have time to start to gel as a team.

I think that the glass is definitely half full.

When typing the above, I compared Nikki Walker to Sean Maitland and laughed for about 5 consecutive hours.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

bsando wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

bsando wrote:Back on the 10 subject, I can sort of see where everyone is coming from. Mucking about with players in different positions at test match level is a bit of a tricky one. But in some cases it is the right thing to do. I think it is more common in SH as many players are more versatile. O'connor for instance is just a bloody good player. I think he has been great at 10 despite being arguably in the top 5 in terms of wingers in the world today.

As far as heathcote, weir and Jackson go. I think it really is wide open. All three have strengths and weaknesses and I think Johnson or who ever takes the Scotland reins should spend the next year playing all three and pick one to be our World Cup first pref 10. Then the other two will have something to work hard for and the lucky 10 who is picked as first pref will have to work hard to keep his spot leading up to the World Cup.

Other nations seem to try to settle with one ten, I mean for example... Nz - dan carter... Backup in piri weepu etc

Ireland - ROG, intro of sexton.. Then suddenly sexton every game. With ROG as backup.

Australia - giteau for ages, before him Larkham I believe. They're now in a similar situation to us, they have several guys who could fill the 10 spot in Barnes, Beale and o'connor plus Harris but I think he wants to be a 12 rather than at 10.

I suppose it really is down to the head coach and the structure he wants to create.

Scrumhalf

And fly-half asbo. Remember World Cup? He was mr fix-it

But anyway, my point was we need our own Scottish DC and a mr-fix it for the next World Cup!

Behind injured back-up 10s Aaron Cruden and Colin Slade? Weepu was all that was left in their squad that could provide any kind of cover which is why they called up Donald Duck

It really doesn't matter asbo, I was merely making a point about the direction Scotland should be heading. But okay, you're right and I'm wrong.

George Carlin wrote:Am not quite as down about it all, Risky.

Let's compare the two lineups - the one facing France in Paris 2 years ago and the likely one for this week. You'll recall that we lost 34-21 in that game but we scored 3 tries.

2010/2011 - 2012/2013

15. Hugo Southwell - Stuart Hogg
14. Nikki Walker - Sean Maitland
13. Joe Ansbro - Sean Lamont
12. Nick De Luca - Matt Scott
11. Max Evans - Tim Visser

10. Dan Parks - Duncan Weir
9. Rory Lawson - Greig Laidlaw

8. Kelly Brown - Johnny Beattie
7. John Barclay - Kelly Brown
6. Nathan Hines - Rob Harley/John Barclay
5. Alastair Kellock (capt) - Jim Hamilton
4. Richie Gray - Richie Gray (it would have been but for injury)
3. Euan Murray - Euan Murray
2. Ross Ford - Ross Ford
1. Allan Jacobsen - Ryan Grant

Several things strike me:

i) The number of players played out of position by AR where not forced by injury.
ii) How much more effective our 9-10 hinge should be now at scoring tries.
iii) The mindblowing increase in quality of our backline.

We cannot believe that this team isn't a huge improvement in previous years. A new coach will come in and determine which structures work best for this bunch of individuals, who will then have time to start to gel as a team.

I think that the glass is definitely half full.

When typing the above, I compared Nikki Walker to Sean Maitland and laughed for about 5 consecutive hours.

The disconcerting thing George, is that the centre pairing isn't fantastic still. They're an improvement, and Scott has shown glimpses of brilliance this year. I think it's time we give Horne and Dunbar a run seeing as them and Weir clearly work at Glasgow. I'd just like to see us go for it and if that means some major tinkering, I'm all for it!

Neily - I honestly believe that the future will be a combination of either:

12 - Horne/Scott/Duncan Taylor
13 - Ansbro/Dunbar/Messiah

We just need to see what works the best.

Duncan Taylor and Mark Bennett at 12 and 13 respectively, with Tom Heathcote at 10.

Particularly Duncan Taylor at 12. He's been a regular performer in that position and is really knocking on the door.

That's who I'd go for in the AIs. The others have all had their chances and failed. Time to move forward. There's a World Cup in 2019 to plan for.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Duncan Taylor and Mark Bennett at 12 and 13 respectively, with Tom Heathcote at 10.

Particularly Duncan Taylor at 12. He's been a regular performer in that position and is really knocking on the door.

That's who I'd go for in the AIs. The others have all had their chances and failed. Time to move forward. There's a World Cup in 2019 to plan for.

Call me paranoid FES, but I am sure I can smell the fetid breath of sarcasm.

Perhaps I should have made clear I meant the future in the medium term.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Simply and utterly not true, ........ get your facts right before you add a riposte

1. His previous coaching roles especially when involved in Scottish Rugby has a bearing on his then appointment, he was instrumental in pulling the youth development program closer to national team, hence the Hoggs, Scotts, Hornes of this world wouldn't have had the opportunity if he hadnt stood his ground on more investment at grass roots

2. Morrison was injured for one game, and Scott was already in the squad before he was injured. Mossy was not retired before Hogg was called up into the training camp prior to selection

3. Tell me when he brought Parks back in who we had as an alternative then, Jackson had been tried and it wasnt good, Weir or Laidlaw weren't ready. I wouldn't have brought Parks back myself and it was a poor move byt I cannae see who we had for that game

Facts, yes, curious things!

1 Hogg, Scott & Horne were part of Scotland's youth programmes at various age groups long before Robinson had any influence (if he ever did at all) on "grass roots" rugby in Scotland. Hogg and Horne were both part of the Glasgow academy programme and woud have had little to do with Robinson

2 Morrison was injured and SLamont played. Scott was not in the squad. He eventually received a call to the bench for th Ireland game, replacing Lee Jones and playing at OC and wing, neither position he'd even played for Edinburgh at that stage - he was then dispensed with completely for the final game against Italy

3 Laidlaw was indeed ready - in fact he played in the following game when Robinson dropped Parks after the England debacle, picking Laidlaw instead with Parks announcing his international retirement and taking the can

Facts, curious things, especially when used badly

Facts are facts (I am sure I can trawl them out if need be)

1. Robinson changed no forced the remit when he took over at Edinburgh, it was quite clear that he went to the top and pushed for increased funding at school level and above, he was involved at youth meeting even and in 2007 (thats SIX YEARS AGO where was Scott at that time remind me!!) he was in charge of our A team..... Scott was clearly at that level and many others.

2. It was clear that at the England game, most people would have played if fit Hogg, Jones, Jackson, Laidlaw, against England who were beginning to construct a pretty decent side together that very well could have made or destroyed their young careers. Ramont and Schlong both could be argued brought a balance that Scott / NDL couldnt have last year.

3. Scott was in the training day and albeit not in the squad was on standby, Scott has played on the wing and at 13 for us by the way. This time last year Scott was not defensively strong enough for Tualagi who often run between the centres and Robinson could see that........ by the way that not a fact just my opinion as someone who has watched him week in week out from an early age

4 Laidlaw ready is not a fact its just an opinion, and one that AR decided against England he wasn't. Was he right? who knows

1 The person responsible for reviewing and changing the structures was actually Graham Lowe as Performance Director.

2 "England who were beginning to construct a pretty decent side together" - no, it was Lancaster's first game in charge after the debacle of the RWC, with him as interim coach and England as ripe for plucking as at any time (borne out by their pretty average performance on the day). Scott was the in form 12 at Edinburgh and in Scotland, and various excuses about "law exams" were trundled out to justify his non-selection and sticking with Morrison (then SLamont when he got injured). NdL played at OC (except against Ireland when he was taken ill and replaced by Evans).

3 Scott would have been up against the attacking maestro that is Brad Barritt - how many caps did he have at that point? I'll give you a clue - not many. I'm going to need you to find those Embra games last season when Scott played at OC or wing (note, that's not this season, when he has featured at OC, without much success). Edit: have done the work for you - a grand total of 3 league OC appearances with 0 on the wing by the start of te 6Ns. There's no question Scott should have been introduced earlier, and at 12.

4 if Laidlaw wasn't ready, how come he was selected a week later to face a greater challenge in Wales AWAY, when Parks was jettisoned?


Anyway, i'll leave it there - I only intervened to stop you and bsando re-writing history and trying to turn Robinson into a half-way decent international coach - he wasn't, and he failed twice

More than happy to call you on the above points to get the facts straight

1. AR came in late 2006 initial interviewed for 'burgh, remit was for developing A team as well as coaching us......... forced through by the man himself
2. GL arrived on the scene in 2009/10 thats THREE years after AR forced the remit through, if I was you I would contact the SRU on who promoted Lowe and encouraged the SRU to chase him..... that will suprise you
3. Matt himself and his family were always concerned with his final exams in the law, ARs close links with youth development took this into account, he has been developed in the correct way since 2007 through the district, and since then played U19, U20, A team etc etc. His youth years saw him as a very good flyhalf and if anything it was his effectiveness as a 10 that helf up the jury on him been an I/C. So that the forum understands where Matty was last year and how AR "fasttracked" ONLY when he knew he was ready
Jan 2012 Scotland A debut
Feb 2012 Scotland Full debut
4. The rest are opinions and if you viewed the Scott of last year (I mean week in week out) compared to the 2013 version then you would have realised his defence wasn't that good, he had very little experience at the highest level and he was just consolidating his magical season.

Nothing wrong with you intervening but get it right before proclaiming your second coming. As far has promoting AR as a halfway decent international coachor rewriting history well the STATS/FACTS speak for themselves he has been our most successful win ratio coach for over 20 yrs, at possibly our lowest financial sporting contribution....... cherry pick the results all you like, there is only one person here who is attempting to rewrite the facts. I am all for you telling me who you would have selected as a coach tho. By the way I have been ARs biggest critic but there's a massive difference between facts and opinions to character promote or destroy. We have played very poorly this year and won games (Ireland and Italy), whilst under AR we have played good rugby attack minded rugby (Wales 2010 Cardiff) and lost........ its been a narrow call

George Carlin wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Duncan Taylor and Mark Bennett at 12 and 13 respectively, with Tom Heathcote at 10.

Particularly Duncan Taylor at 12. He's been a regular performer in that position and is really knocking on the door.

That's who I'd go for in the AIs. The others have all had their chances and failed. Time to move forward. There's a World Cup in 2019 to plan for.

Call me paranoid FES, but I am sure I can smell the fetid breath of sarcasm.

Perhaps I should have made clear I meant the future in the medium term.

That is some paranoia you've got going there GC.

Moi. Sarcastic. Never.

Seriously though, that crystal ball you have, does it do lottery numbers as well?

God almighty we will get get the Nick de Luca fan club on here next !

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:God almighty we will get get the Nick de Luca fan club on here next !

Indeed - possibly even both of them if we're lucky.

Anyone else pleased with the number of new caps we've had in the last 12 months, can't remember a time in recent history when we've introduced so many new players.

Welsh, Grant, Gilchrist, Harley, Denton, Wilson, Prygos, Weir, Heathcote, Scott, Visser, Jones, Maitland, Brown and Hogg all capped in the last 12 months, that's a lot for any nation.

Plus the likes of MacArthur, Fusaro, McInally, Kennedy, Horne, Dunbar, Bennett, Murchie and Tonks are all coming up the tracks behind them.

And added to the pool of players that'll be young enough to make it to the next World Cup;

Ford, Low, Cross, Murray, Gray, Hamilton, Brown, Barclay, Rennie, Beattie, Cusiter, Laidlaw, Jackson, Ansbro, Grove, De Luca, Evans, R Lamont

And that has the makings of a pretty handy squad, certainly don't think Scottish rugby is in decline compared to the previous decade. Just need to get the right coaching team in.

Its just a shame a good few of them should have been introduced earlier - we have lost a year in development at least thanks to robinsons refusal to select players. But yes the players are there to get back into the top 8 or higher in the world and to not be fighting for the wooden spoon.