Scotland Post Match thread

[123456789]

First topic message reminder :

Positives:
We have a back-three that can score from anywhere
Matt Scott showed he's an international class centre (still question marks over his defence)
Laidlaw showed bits of class and will improve throughout the competition
Beattie's back
Ford was very good when he came on
We appear to be more patient in the opposition 22

Negatives:
Jackson wasn't very good
Lamont isn't a 13
Inconsistent scrummaging
Our defence stands off too much meaning teams like England and New Zealand and England make ground with apparent ease

For next week:
Need to be more aggressive
Maybe Cairns or Grove should be promoted
I'd stay with the same team except I'd start Denton, Ford, Weir and Grove

The question is, was it better to see Scotland weaker in defence but have a far greater attacking threat or better to see Scotland strong defensively but blunt in attack?

[Solid8]

What about the fact that Heathcote has been pulled up from the As?

[123456789]

What about the fact that Heathcote has been pulled up from the As?

It would seem a bit odd to advertise a game with a player not starting, especially with Weir who's hardly a figure in the same way that Denton or Gray or Hogg would be for an ad campaign.

[Solid8]

Very true, but then some of the decision making in the SRU mystifies me, and if the team management have anything to do with PR decisions I would be pretty upset.

[123456789]

I suppose so, I think it could be a good decision, personally I'd go for:

1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Murray
4. Gray
5. Kellock
6. Brown
7. Fusaro
8. Beattie
9. Laidlaw
10. Weir
11. Visser
12. Horne
13. Dunbar
14. Maitland
15. Hogg


16. Welsh
17. MacArthur
18. Low
19. Kellock
20. Denton
21. Pyrgos
22. Heathcote
23. Scott

[Tramptastic]

I like that 23 numbers But there's too many changes! It's like if you keep chopping and changing the line up every week no-one gets comfortable with each other and don't perform as well as they could! I'd like to see jackson play again but this time with the pack not getting slapped about all over the park! And then if he still doesn't perform with a decent platform then you can justify booting him out of the 23 altogether!

[Tramptastic]

Also you have Kellock twice numbers

[TJ1]

Italy have beaten us 4 out of the last 6 times, and are above us in the world rankings. Rabbo form means nothing when it comes to international ability

Indeed. Italy are deservedly at least Scotland equal now and close to wales and Ireland. people need to stop underestimating them and putting them down - that not the first good win Italy have had

[123456789]

Also you have Kellock twice numbers

Oh yeah I'd replace the second one for Hamilton

[123456789]

I like that 23 numbers But there's too many changes! It's like if you keep chopping and changing the line up every week no-one gets comfortable with each other and don't perform as well as they could! I'd like to see jackson play again but this time with the pack not getting slapped about all over the park! And then if he still doesn't perform with a decent platform then you can justify booting him out of the 23 altogether!

I just don't think Jackson's good enough, he can't kick or run he is effectively just a link. He's a good substitute for Glasgow but no more.

[123456789]

Italy have beaten us 4 out of the last 6 times, and are above us in the world rankings. Rabbo form means nothing when it comes to international ability

Indeed. Italy are deservedly at least Scotland equal now and close to wales and Ireland. people need to stop underestimating them and putting them down - that not the first good win Italy have had

Rubbish, they had a fantastic result against an abysmal France team they are still streets behind Wales and Ireland and behind us too.

[TJ1]

Reality check for numbers please :-) Ireland are further ahead than I thought but what difference is there between Wales, Scotland and Italy?

5(4) FRANCE 83.49
6(6) IRELAND 81.33
7(7) SAMOA 78.71
8(8) ARGENTINA 78.71
9(10) ITALY 77.82
10(9) WALES 77.27
11(11)TONGA 76.10
12(12)SCOTLAND 75.83

[GLove39]

What about the fact that Heathcote has been pulled up from the As?

It would seem a bit odd to advertise a game with a player not starting, especially with Weir who's hardly a figure in the same way that Denton or Gray or Hogg would be for an ad campaign.

Wouldn't read too much into it, if you go to the SRU shop website http://www.scottishrugbydirect.com/ you'll see the photo at the top is from a Italy - England game. Odds are some tech guy was like need an update for the Facebook page, okay what's this a Scotland player? That'll do.

[123456789]

Reality check for numbers please :-) Ireland are further ahead than I thought but what difference is there between Wales, Scotland and Italy?

5(4) FRANCE 83.49
6(6) IRELAND 81.33
7(7) SAMOA 78.71
8(8) ARGENTINA 78.71
9(10) ITALY 77.82
10(9) WALES 77.27
11(11)TONGA 76.10
12(12)SCOTLAND 75.83

The World rankings are a load of crap, we will win on Sunday comfortably

[Imperialbigdave]

Reality check for numbers please :-) Ireland are further ahead than I thought but what difference is there between Wales, Scotland and Italy?

5(4) FRANCE 83.49
6(6) IRELAND 81.33
7(7) SAMOA 78.71
8(8) ARGENTINA 78.71
9(10) ITALY 77.82
10(9) WALES 77.27
11(11)TONGA 76.10
12(12)SCOTLAND 75.83

The World rankings are a load of crap, we will win on Sunday comfortably

on what form are we going to win comfortably? Bold statements like that need something to back them up, and as weve already discussed, we havent won a game comfortably in 5 years. 5 years!

[MacKnocked-on]

I seem to remember we thrashed the Ivory Coast at a Rugby World Cup once, about 20 years or so ago.
Seriously though, we need to be positive going into all games without any of the stupid Telfer-esque pronouncements.

[Manky-Flanker]

Ahhhh I remember that game Mac

89-0

[GLove39]

89, not bad, although slightly more recent Scotland 100 - 8 Japan!

[bsando]

Think Johnson needs to fish out players who are unable to perform for 80mins. Or adjust gameplan to suit players like Hamilton who can't be expected to make every ruck. I'm sure he'll commit more numbers to rucks against Italy this weekend. That simple adjustment may well make a huge difference. But I really want to see Scotland playing the ball through hands instead of kicking for territory at every available opportunity.

[George Carlin]

Johnson has indeed been mixed with his messages - saying that he wants to keep players in their position to give them confidence but similarly suggesting that changes have to be made.

A couple of things seem clear - the overriding message being that Johnson will probably try and stick within his original 27 if he possibly can, but shuffle within that category:

1. Fusaro has not been listed as back into the squad - indicating that he is still injured. if so, this means that the replacement for Big Baldy Al can only be Harley. Both Beattie and Denton are formally listed as carrying injuries and if they cannot shake them off, then Big Boab will replace whichever of them that is.

2. If Hall cannot play (which seems likely at the moment), then Ford will unquestionably start, whether we think that recent performances merit it or not. Don't understand why someone like Scott Lawson (whose contribution for the Exiles has been steady but not spectacular) can be brought back into the squad when MacArthur was in the original training squad.

3. Hamilton has been marked out as a disappointment by everyone and I think he will be benched with Kellock to start.

4. A couple of pieces are interesting in the Herald - Ferrie suggesting that Rhubarb might be suffering from lack of confidence. That would be consistent with Weir and now Heathcote being in the training squad for this week but it's still not clear which of the three is going to be left out.

5. Ferrie also suggests that if we don't show an international quality 10 in this tournament, then management will consider trying Hogg at 10, which is where he used to play at school.

6. If you want a laugh, have a look at Big Al trying to make coffee:
http://www.scotlandrugbyteam.org/content/view/3326/2/

[Captain_Sensible]

5. Ferrie also suggests that if we don't show an international quality 10 in this tournament, then management will consider trying Hogg at 10, which is where he used to play at school.

Oh clucking bell. Playing Hogg at 13 is ridiculous enough, let alone playing him at 10. Playing in a position for your school team does NOT constitute grounds for being played there at international level. Hogg is on course to being the best fullback that this country has ever produced. Why ruin that?

All that statement tells me is that either the Scotland management has lost its marbles, or Kevin Ferrie has. I hope it’s the latter.

[MacKnocked-on]

89, not bad, although slightly more recent Scotland 100 - 8 Japan!

Think I was there (alas high scores by Scotland seem so so long ago), wasn't that game in Perth and officially an A fixture? I was also at the Ivory Coast game when I was a student, remember those days fondly, beating Ireland with ease virtually every time, changed days indeed.

[George Carlin]

MacKnocked - the cycle of talent comes and goes - unfortunately it's been something of a dry decade for us.

It does make me laugh watching 20-something Irish posters complain that certain Irish centres shouldn't be chosen because they aren't as good as O'Driscoll. How long before these guys work out that they won't see another BOD for 20 years. And then he probably won't be Irish.

[nickj]

Anyone know when the team's announced?

[GLove39]

Harley's in

Team announced


15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) 11 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors) 1 cap, 1 try, 5 points
13 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors) 72 caps, 8 tries, 40 points
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby) 8 caps
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby) 6 caps, 4 tries, 20 points
10 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors) 16 caps, 2 conversions, 2 penalties, 2 drop-goals, 16 points
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) vice captain 14 caps, 2 tries, 12 conversions and 24 penalties, 106 points

1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) vice captain 6 caps
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) 64 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
3 Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors) 50 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
4 Richie Gray (Sale Sharks) 28 caps, 1 try. 5 points
5 Jim Hamilton (Gloucester) 42 caps, 1 try, 5 points
6 Robert Harley (Glasgow Warriors) 1 cap, 1 try, 5 points
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) captain, 53 caps, 4 tries, 20 points
8 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier) 17 caps, 3 tries, 15 points

Substitutes

16 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors) 40 caps, 1 try, 5 points or Pat MacArthur (Glasgow Warriors) uncapped
17 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors) 15 caps
18 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby) 17 caps, 1 try, 5 points
19 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors) 48 caps, 1 try, 5 points
20 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby) 10 caps
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) 4 caps, 1 try, 5 points
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps, 1 conversion, 2 points
23 Max Evans (Castres) 33 caps, 3 tries, 15 points

[nickj]

Scotland XV: Hogg Maitland Lamont Scott Visser Jackson Laidlaw; Grant Ford Murray Gray Hamilton Harley Brown Beattie

[nickj]

Bench: Hall Low Cross Kellock Denton Pyrgos Weir Evans

[Solid8]

The replacement hooker is either Hall or MacArthur!

[beshocked]

Keep picking your best no 6 out of position. Good job Scotland.

[MacKnocked-on]

It seems some players are considered undroppable by the management.

[RDW]

I’m assuming Bob Harley is in there over Denton to give more of a balance to the back row – neither Denton or Beattie are renowned for hitting rucks so I am assuming Bob will be told to tackle himself to a stand still and get us good ruck ball.

Lamont at 13 still…not great.

[MacKnocked-on]

No doubt in my mind that Grove should be playing 13 instead of Lamont and Jackson should be out of the squad completely. I keep reading that Jackson is a strong tackling 10 but you need a lot more to your game than that and ,besides, any time I've seen Heathcote playing for Bath he doesn't shirk his defensive duties.
The forwards will have to seriously improve their attitudes if we hope to compete with Italy on Saturday.
Also fed up reading the sort of nonsense that Lamont is quoted as saying in today's Herald about not writing the team off after one game etc, he's lucky to still be in the team after 8 tries or something like that in goodness knows how many matches, get a grip man!

[Captain_Sensible]

Harley in = good
MacArthur possibly on bench = good

Rest of team unchanged, I can see the argument for continuity. Forwards need to smash the place up and give our back three some ball.

[GLove39]

I have horrible visions of a Jackson being charged down on Saturday...

[Pat_Mustard]

Would have liked to see a different 13 starting but when neither Dunbar nor Grove were promoted it was apparent that wouldn't happen.

Would have liked to see Pat MacArthur start, and hopefully he'll be on the bench, although it looks like Hall is preferred unless injured and I wouldn't wish injury on him.

Would have liked to see Hamilton replaced by Kellock or Swinson.

Would have liked to see Welsh on the bench.

And would really have liked to see Horne and Fusaro available, but they are apparently both still injured

However, by and large I don't think Saturday's failings were down to individual selection calls exactly, more a failure to execute properly as a team, at the breakdown and defensive line speed as has been discussed extensively. If they work hard on these areas in training this week I think the same side can do much better against Italy. Getting back to the kind of possession we had against SA and tough defence we showed against Australia should be the aim. Then in attack we have the players to do damage.

So despite my unfulfilled wishes above, I'll back the decision to stick with most of the team and believe they can raise their performance and beat Italy.

[Majestic83]

Would have liked to have seen a few other changes but can understand why it has been kept to a minimum. Think Hamilton, Jackson and Lamont are extremely lucky to keep their jerseys. Would have liked to have seen Grove at 13, one of the inform 13s playing in England just now and had a great game for Scotland A. Great in defence and has a good passing game and is deceptively quick.
For Jackson either of Weir or Heathcote would have been a better option.

This weekend we really need to be more aggresive and nastier in the forwards. Despite us having a big set of forwards the other packs seem to dominate us and are dirtier.

The italian 10 channel is an area for attack, Orquera seems to have improved in attack and getting the italian backs moving but his defence is still weak. We need to get beattie, lamont visser running at him with someone in support either side to make some real yardage to get in behind the italians defence.

[RuggerRadge2611]

I hear all this bad banter about Jackson, but he didn't do much wrong.

His pack got butchered and when we had the ball we were getting bashed in the tackle by one of the best defences I can recall seing in a Rugby game.

Hamilton, Murray and Lamont should have been dropped for Inspector kellock, Lowe and Dunbar.

[RDW]

I'm quite worried about the lack of dynamism in the pack - something we were very much 2nd best at last week.

Beattie is the epitome of dynamic and Gray and Brown are good too, but the rest are fairly slow and lumbering.

[funnyExiledScot]

I think it's an even heavier and slower pack than last week! Ford in for Hall and Harley in for Strokosch!

Still, this will be a very different type of game - much slower generally, and the Italians will not be generating the same sort of quick ball and momentum that England managed. We ought to be able to dictate the pace of the game more, and I can see the logic in picking a pack that won't get bullied.

Personally I'd have benched Hamilton and picked Swinson to start, and I'd switch MacArthur and Ford, and have Harley and Brown switch sides. I think that would be a better balanced pack.

I see the "anyone but" merchants are on the case of Jackson after last weekend. The suggestion that Weir replaces him is absolutely laughable. Weir hasn't played a decent game of rugby all season. Yes, Heathcote played ok against the Saxons, but it was a completely different type of game played at almost glacial pace compared to the main game. The reason Heathcote isn't involved is that he can't get enough 1st team action at Bath. Personally I'd switch him with Weir on current form and have him on the bench, but I've seen no compelling evidence to start him ahead of Jackson.

I've said before that I can perfectly well see the arguments from Alex Grove ahead of Lamont, but I'd far rather Lamont than Evans, and I don't think it fair to judge an attacking 13 like Lamont based on a game like Saturday. For Lamont to play well he needs to ball in his hands. Hopefully we'll see some of that on Saturday.

The best news with this announcement is that the back three are all fit to play again, and that Beattie has recovered from his knock.

[George Carlin]

I agree RDW but Harley, Brown and Beattie looks like a much more mobile trio although with Harley's recent gametime at 7 for, I'm not sure I agree that he should be on the blind here.

It's a tough selection for Johnson and I think he's been quite lenient. Rhubarb, Hamilton and Lamont must be drinking at the last chance saloon by now and I do think that these guys will be dropped unless they get their fingers out. Their replacements are already being lined up with Heathcote et al joining the squad.

Swinson and Grove remain the obvious ommissions.

Hamilton is included for his bulk as getting munched in the scrum is a real danger now. I hope to feck that Barbieri is not playing.

[funnyExiledScot]

Agreed on Barbieri - the last thing was need is a proper quality openside against us mucking up our ball.

I'm pretty sure when Johnson took over he'll have said to players that this is a clean slate, so I'm not at all surprised at the continuity in selection. The only player he's actually dropped is Hall for Ford, which I actually think is harsh based on last week, but I'm delighted that MacArthur might come into the equation. I know he's not the biggest, but his tackling and breakdown work is worth its weight in gold.

[RDW]

Hall has picked up an injury and, considering it is still not known whether he will be fit in time of not, it was a no brainer to drop him I think.

[RuggerRadge2611]

It's a tough selection for Johnson and I think he's been quite lenient. Rhubarb, Hamilton and Lamont must be drinking at the last chance saloon by now and I do think that these guys will be dropped unless they get their fingers out. Their replacements are already being lined up with Heathcote et al joining the squad.

GC, you are one of my favourite posters here bud

I can't agree with your comments re Jackson. Hamilton and Lamont I agree with, Lamont probably less since it's not his fault he was picked out of position.

I thought Jackson didn't do anything wrong against England. He was just Mullered in 2 seconds flat every time he touched the ball.

It's not his fault England defended with such intensity.

[funnyExiledScot]

I always think that if a player is fit for the bench then he's fit to start. Seems to me that whether he's fit or not come Saturday he's not in the XV, which is a dropping in my book.

I just hope that Ross Ford appreciates his luck and puts in one hell of a performance. That Italy front row are incredible given their veteran status. They were everywhere on Sunday and Ford needs to replicate that workrate and more. None of this slowing down into contact, or taking a measured approach at rucks, I want to see him crashing his considerable power into the opposition and hitting rucks as if his life depended on it. Another so so performance and MacArthur should be drafted straight in.

Ford will have targeted Lions selection at the start of this year. Well England have two hookers clearly ahead of him, and Rory Best is in a different league. He's going to need a huge series of performances.

[funnyExiledScot]

Agree with Radge on Jackson - I really don't think Dan Carter would have made a difference in that game (in fact he was also made to look poor in the AIs by England). Jackson was standing as flat as possible to try and give the backs some form of platform to attack, but because our ball was either slow or hurried, the England defenders were all over him.

He could have sat deeper and gone with a kicking game, but (a) that isn't his natural game or what he's been picked to do, and (b) he probably knows from reading 606v2 regularly that Scotland fans don't like fly halves who kick the ball (see the 1 trillion threads on Dan Parks).

I've been a fierce critic of Jackson over the years, but this one wasn't his fault.

[MacKnocked-on]

I watched the A game on Youtube and there was a greater intensity from Scotland against what was on paper a stronger team. In addition to Heathcote, Grove, Tonks and Dunbar who looked good as has been said before, Taylor also looked very sharp. These players have to believe that they have a chance of promotion to the main team, Grove must be wondering what he's done wrong or who he's annoyed.

[RDW]

I always think that if a player is fit for the bench then he's fit to start. Seems to me that whether he's fit or not come Saturday he's not in the XV, which is a dropping in my book.

On the contrary, this week is obviously going to be a fairly brutal training week and there's no point selecting Hall to start if he's spent all week sitting on his arse and not honing his contact skills like everyone else. Yes Ford could get injured in the first minute, but there's no way you could have Hall starting if there's doubts over him and he can't contribute all week.

[George Carlin]

It's a tough selection for Johnson and I think he's been quite lenient. Rhubarb, Hamilton and Lamont must be drinking at the last chance saloon by now and I do think that these guys will be dropped unless they get their fingers out. Their replacements are already being lined up with Heathcote et al joining the squad.

GC, you are one of my favourite posters here bud

I can't agree with your comments re Jackson. Hamilton and Lamont I agree with, Lamont probably less since it's not his fault he was picked out of position.

I thought Jackson didn't do anything wrong against England. He was just Mullered in 2 seconds flat every time he touched the ball.

It's not his fault England defended with such intensity.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not a Rhubarb Hater. He actually did well at the breakdowns and I'm not an "anyone but" affictionado.

However, a view needs to be reached with him. He's 24 now and we need to understand if he's worth persevering with. Sexton is only 2 years older but has won three Heineken Cups. That's not a facetious comment - it's unfortunately a marker set by another player and one to which we should at least attempt to aspire (unrealistic though that maybe and special as Sexton undoubtedly is).

I'm not convinced that he is the future, particularly with his soft goalkicking and I am keen to see what Heathcote can do. He is similarly entitled to further time, given the appalling position that Robinson put him in.

[funnyExiledScot]

I always think that if a player is fit for the bench then he's fit to start. Seems to me that whether he's fit or not come Saturday he's not in the XV, which is a dropping in my book.

On the contrary, this week is obviously going to be a fairly brutal training week and there's no point selecting Hall to start if he's spent all week sitting on his arse and not honing his contact skills like everyone else. Yes Ford could get injured in the first minute, but there's no way you could have Hall starting if there's doubts over him and he can't contribute all week.

If he's genuinely not training at all this week then I wouldn't let him near the bench either.

[funnyExiledScot]

I watched the A game on Youtube and there was a greater intensity from Scotland against what was on paper a stronger team. In addition to Heathcote, Grove, Tonks and Dunbar who looked good as has been said before, Taylor also looked very sharp. These players have to believe that they have a chance of promotion to the main team, Grove must be wondering what he's done wrong or who he's annoyed.

I completely agree that players should be picked for the XV on merit, and players who are outperforming incumbents in the 1st XV both across the season and in the A team should be promoted. You need that in order to motivate your playing pool.

It's on that basis that I think we're all scratching our heads on Grove, and have been for some time. It's not as if when he did get his chance all those years ago he blew it, he was always very competent, even when tested out of position at 12.

I think Tonks can feel aggrieved not to be in the 1st squad, but he's never getting in ahead of Hogg and accordingly I don't see him as a hugely useful bench option either.

It's the first I've seen Taylor play this season. What has he done in a Sarries shirt in big club games? I don't know the answer, but I suspect the answer is nothing, in which case the A squad is the right place for him right now. We have good options for the wing already in the 1st squad.

Dunbar - average season at Glasgow, ok in the A game. I don't think he can feel hugely hard done by.

As above, I think Heathcote probably deserves to be on the bench at the weekend in place of Weir. I'm confident his time will come. He certainly shoudn't be judged on his Tonga cameo. Ridiculous man management from Robinson.

[MacKnocked-on]

I certainly feel one A game in the season isn't enough for player development/ providing selection alternatives. Don't know why we haven't got a game against the Wolfhounds but as we haven't I would have liked the SRU to try some alternative opposition who might have welcomed a game/s; Georgia, Romania, Russia?

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