Wales v All Blacks Match thread, Poll, and Previews

[maestegmafia]

First topic message reminder :

So this week saw the fans calls for players unused the week before who are in form this season answered and we lost to Samoa, we also lost more players to injury.

So what next...?

Wales offered little in impetus yet again. Few of the form players made a difference against Samoa. Wales have to make a massive improvement in every aspect of their game for next weeks match vs the ABs but what are your suggestions...???

Wales team:
Leigh Halfpenny; Alex Cuthbert, Jonathan Davies, Jamie Roberts, George North; Rhys Priestland, Mike Phillips; Paul James, Matthew Rees, Aaron Jarvis, Bradley Davies, Luke Charteris, Ryan Jones, Sam Warburton (captain), Toby Faletau

Replacements:
Ken Owens, Gethin Jenkins, Scott Andrews, Aaron Shingler, Justin Tipuric, Tavis Knoyle, James Hook, Scott Williams


New Zealand team:
Israel Dagg, Cory Jane, Conrad Smith, Ma'a Nonu, Julian Savea, Daniel Carter, Aaron Smith, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw, Liam Messam, Sam Whitelock, Luke Romano, Owen Franks, Andrew Hore, Tony Woodcock.

Replacements: Dane Coles, Wyatt Crockett, Charlie Faumuina, Brodie Retallick, Victor Vito, Piri Weepu, Aaron Cruden, Ben Smith.

[aucklandlaurie]

Aaah Laurie, a match at the Millenium stadium s something else. The Welsh do know how to create an atmosphere at the games

I must put it on my bucket list, knowing my luck i'll go to watch the All blacks play wales at Millenium Stadium and the All Blacks will lose.

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

AB's have called up Hika Elliot and Tom Taylor as cover for next week. Elliot could well be on the bench behind Coles with Mealamu carrying a niggle and Hore likely to be banned.

"Son of Warwick" gets his first AB's call up as Carter, Cruden and Barrett all have niggles. He kicked over 90% of his goals in the ITM this season, and covers 10, 12 and 15.

[eirebilly]

Its a great place to watch an International Laurie. Just dont drink too much or those girls in the pink cowboy hats that can eat apples through tennis rackets may start to look sexy

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

For me the only real relevance from this game, which was daft from the start, was the flakeiness of Preistland. He already had question marks in this area, but really does need to get his hed together if hes going to lead Wales in th 6 nations.

Australia game will most likley be played by Wales B against a crackered and depleted Aus side who wont take it that seriously. Again its a bit of an irrelevance really aside form possibly assessing Biggars claims if hes fit.

It does matter to Wales in terms of ranking points, but in terms of seeing where the side is likely to be for the 6 nations..I think weve learnt by now that Wales' autumn form and results bears little resemblance to how theyll play then.

[bedfordwelsh]

Sod bringing Ashton in alongside Howley bring him in instead of Howley.

Not heard that about Jenkins but will be good if it has been done.

[George Carlin]

Its a great place to watch an International Laurie. Just dont drink too much or those girls in the pink cowboy hats that can eat apples through tennis rackets may start to look sexy

Good lord - I have GOT to remember that expression.

[aucklandlaurie]

Its a great place to watch an International Laurie. Just dont drink too much or those girls in the pink cowboy hats that can eat apples through tennis rackets may start to look sexy

those girls sound like they could murder a corn cob. how do they look in the hips?

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

Its a great place to watch an International Laurie. Just dont drink too much or those girls in the pink cowboy hats that can eat apples through tennis rackets may start to look sexy

those girls sound like they could murder a corn cob. how do they look in the hips?

As a rule Laurie, generally you don't want to know

[aucklandlaurie]

Its a great place to watch an International Laurie. Just dont drink too much or those girls in the pink cowboy hats that can eat apples through tennis rackets may start to look sexy

those girls sound like they could murder a corn cob. how do they look in the hips?

As a rule Laurie, generally you don't want to know

I thought Billy was only suggesting that if you dont drink too much then its OK.

[TycroesOsprey]

Sod bringing Ashton in alongside Howley bring him in instead of Howley.

Not heard that about Jenkins but will be good if it has been done.

Thats the problem isn't it, you cant bring in a new head coach because Gatland is coming back. I think most people dont think Howley is up to the job but replacing him completely is out of the question as its only a temporary appointment. Ashton as a consultant would be perfect.

[bedfordwelsh]

But the thing is, is that he is temporary for the 6 Nations as well and that fills me with dread

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Id love to see Chris bought in as a consultant, the 15 man splash try would be a wonder to behold

[TycroesOsprey]

Id love to see Chris bought in as a consultant, the 15 man splash try would be a wonder to behold

Actually I think Brian Ashton was really hard done by the RFU. Honestly as an attack coach I dont think he has many peers and as a Head Coach I think England would have done better with him still at the helm than turning to MJ. Sadly I cant see Howleys ego allowing anyone to come in even if it would be good for the team. Without Gatland there is no real thinker in the coaching staff and that is evident by the way we played, without vision.

[Guest]

I didnt think it was too bad a game, ABs had all the momentum in the first half and wales came out and got some momentum in the second. However i do think that if Hore had of been red crded at the outset the ABs still would have had the ability to get the points to win at the end of 80.

two questions for wales

1 . Why on Earth did you let your coach go off and coach the Lions? it is killing your team.

2. Do young welsh rugby players not learn the meaning and benefits of accuracy?

Laurie, 2 very good points there.

1. I've said the same thing. It harmed us last time the whole team went as coaches on the last tour, it got Graham Henry sacked in 2001, and this time we've lost all momentum since a decent World Cup and good 6N. I think we should say to coaches that they need to be committed 100% to the cause. This is not a CPD opportunity; you're either with us for the whole of your contract or not at all. Instead of building on some relative success we're starting over again in his absence.

2. The problem with accuracy (are you talking about Pristleand at 10 and his inability to find touch?) is that they're not dropped to teach them a lesson. We're so paper thin in some positions that the likes of Priestland need to be picked again and again. In NZ I would imagine that a drop in form would result in a spell on the sidelines or being busted back to club level to regain form. Not in Wales; we try to play them back into form! This is why some of us are quite vocal about the selections. Gatland seems to ignore form quite often and go for players that he feels know the moves best regardless of whether they're in form.

The other thing regarding accuracy is that, for me, the club game here is a much slower pace. Players who seem capable at executing skills well at that pace at club level are then struggling to be as accurate with the increase in pace. That's when timing of passes is off, passes are behind the man, too far in front, kicks are mistimed, etc. Trying to bring the pace of international rugby to training and club rugby would be the answer but it's very hard to do!

[wales606]

Team for Aus

1. Gethin Jenkins (Bevington :/ if unavailable)
2. Matthew Rees
3. Scott Andrews
4. Luke Charteris
5. Ryan Jones
6. Aaron Shingler
7. Sam Warburton
8. Toby Faletau
9. Tavis Knoyle
10. Dan Biggar (please for the love of god)
11. George North
12. Scott Williams
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Richard Hibbard (Ken Owens)
17. Ryan Bevington (if starting, ANOther?)
18. Samson Lee
19. Ian Evans
20. Justin Tipuric
21. Lloyd Williams (OH GOD NO!)
22. Rhys Preistland (hmmm)
23. Liam Williams/Jamie Roberts/Ashley Beck.

[Guest]

I'd start Liam Williams. Either wing or FB.

[wales606]

I'd start Liam Williams. Either wing or FB.

I was tempted to start Liam at FB and move 1/2p to 14. However, I would rather keep the experience at FB.

[wales606]

Is Gareth Davies and Rhys Webb are not in the 6Ns squad, but Lloyd Williams is then I will have lost all hope for Howley.

[eirebilly]

I would have Liam Williams ahead of Alex Cuthbert against Australia to be honest. Cuthbert may be a decent broken play runner but his defence is poor in comparison to Williamsand against the Aussies, defence may be a big key.

[Ospreydragon]

"However i do think that if Hore had of been red crded at the outset the ABs still would have had the ability to get the points to win at the end of 80." -- Don't forget that NZ were down to 14 men for 10 mins wwhen CJ was sinbinned -- an incident like that would have reduced them to 13 men!

They say that great teams earn their luck. In the WC semi, Wales gets their cpatian redcarded for a hard tackle where there was no malicious intent (I know that intent is not part of the rules when it comes to sanctioning). Hore does a cowardly cheap shot and nothing, absolutely nothing, is done.

Perhaps they should change the rules and allow the 4th official to inform the ref and isue a sanction during the match!

[kingjohn7]

-- Don't forget that NZ were down to 14 men for 10 mins wwhen CJ was sinbinned -- an incident like that would have reduced them to 13 men!

I honestly believe NZ would beat us with 13 men from the start. It would be close but think they would win more often than lose.

[Smirnoffpriest]

One (of the only) things I loves about this match is Liam Williams - in only his what 2nd cap? against the best side in the world, he's not exactly the biggest player on the pitch, yet never took a backward step, was full blooded in attack and defence, and was getting in the NZ faces at every opportunity showing no fear

[GavinDragon]

agree with you there smirnoff the guy is gutsy as hell. Dont mind mixing it. Was niggling against the AB's all game! Love it!

[thebluesmancometh]

Ye that Dagg hit was a bute, not content with that though he went after the ball and when the whistle went decided to use his shoulder as a nudge through the AB player, let him know he was there kinda thing, reminded me of a young Henson actually with his attitude toward the reputation.

[Guest]

Great to see the crowd give Prince William a cheer yesterday, found it cringe worthy a couple of years ago when they kept booing him.

[Taylorman]

One (of the only) things I loves about this match is Liam Williams - in only his what 2nd cap? against the best side in the world, he's not exactly the biggest player on the pitch, yet never took a backward step, was full blooded in attack and defence, and was getting in the NZ faces at every opportunity showing no fear

Agree with this one. Williams was fantastic. Showed the skills of a Fullback, wing and centre all in the one match.Great defence, slick running and great hands to pass the final ball for the try. Has a great future from what I saw.

Hores another in a relatively short list of AB thugs and deserves what he gets.

A fantastic AB try and the two Welsh tries were the highlights for me.

A minimum 20 point win over England is the best the AB's can achieve next week.

[Morgannwg]

Great to see the crowd give Prince William a cheer yesterday, found it cringe worthy a couple of years ago when they kept booing him.

Yeah I agree that was rather distasteful. Good to see he's now more popular around this way. Although at the time Wales supporters didn't have much else to cheer . I assume he was looking rather unhappy because 'his team' were losing and not because he was stuck in Cardiff due to wet weather...

[glamorganalun]

Wales must have a second row on the bench next week, we have badly been hit in two out of three game losing a second row. Ryan covered in the last game but he had a bad injury with a clash of heads around his eye and had to go off, we did OK in the second half as the AB's had switched off but we still go murdered in the scrum. I believe Ian Evans, G North and no doubt part time Roberts will be back, I hope Roberts is dropped for JD2 and S Williams to continue at centre/s.

Will Gatland drop our flakey 10 and who cover 10 if Preistland does play as Hook is not available?

[Guest]

The All Blacks never switch off , to be fair Wales just went for it and matched them second half

[glamorganalun]

Is Gareth Davies and Rhys Webb are not in the 6Ns squad, but Lloyd Williams is then I will have lost all hope for Howley.

Knoyle is worse than the lot of them, his passes are slow looped affairs often aronud the ankles.

[thebluesmancometh]

I beg to differ Glam, Williams is far worse than Knoyle, at least Knoyle has a bit of bottle!!

Davies wasn't great tonight mind, and I still maintain we have to give Roberts a decent crack.

PS Rees is still playing very well and easily the best welsh SH!!!

[glamorganalun]

Agree on Rees is is by far the best SH in Wales, for me Knoyle looked promising in the past but for me he has been poor this season. Webb who is not in the squad is mixed this year constantly kicking the ball away, he has probably been having lessons for Howley.

[thebluesmancometh]

Williams, Knoyle and Webb have all gone backwards this season at a rate of knots yet 2 of them are still in the Wales squad?!?!?!

What I find funny is the focus on younger players on the international stage, the likes of Knoyle, Williams, Davies and Weeb are supposedly the future yet offer little to the NT that Rees or Roberts couldn't give, also they would offer competition to Phillips who hasn't had to worry about his place since Rees was dumped for being better than him!!

Similar to other positions, Iestyn Thomas wasn't taken to the World cup despite his performances, and dare I say Falatau isn't quite ready for international rugby, Powell or Delve could do a better job for the present while Falatau progress's!!

Jarvis, Lee, Jones and Andrews are all up and comers but are at least 4/5 seasons from being able to compete at international level.

[glamorganalun]

+1, agree with all your comments

[wales606]

Im a Blues fan and Lloyd Williams is BY FAR, the worst of all the welsh SHs.

[thebluesmancometh]

I understand the building toward the next world cup but if we drop to 9th position our WC will become twice as hard anyway, plus we need to be peaking in 2015 not having guarenteeing positions to players who are barely in their 20's now!!!

[thebluesmancometh]

You and me both wales!!!

[bedfordwelsh]

I would be tempted to start both Liam and Scott Williams and Shingler all had very good games.

[GavinDragon]

+1 bedford

[Guest]

The NZ herald is it's usual graceful self!

They think we are so starved of quality rugby that the tries scored by the All Blacks especially the Messam try,will be the best tries we have ever seen and ever will see on Welsh soil!!

No offence but coming from a country where Shane Williams used to play they couldn't be more wrong.

[BlueNote]

I haven't seen the game on TV yet, but from being at the game:

It's terrifying how clinically NZ take any sniff of an opportunity - they scored 3 really good tries.

From the replays on the big screen at the ground, it looked like calculated thuggery by Hore, not what you expect from ABs nowadays. Galling that it is England who will benefit from a ban assuming he gets one.

I did feel that Joubert only reffed one side in the first half; NZ weren't doing any more than any international team does but they were allowed to get away with it, unlike Wales. I think he realised that because he did the classic ref thing of trying to make it look more even by awarding a load of penalties near the end when it's too late (normally the away team suffers from that when a ref has favoured the home team). Not that I imagine for one minute he's biassed, just reffing in accordance with his expectations of the relative strengths of the teams. That and the injuries - for Wales to have any chance, things have to go their way - the decisions, the bounce of the ball - and that certainly didn't happen.

Obviously NZ were disrupted by the subs later on, although Wales were just as disrupted by the injuries right from the start. At least the subs were voluntary!

Anyway, (clearly) the best team won. Some good stuff from Wales near the end, and a lot more commitment throughout the game, but obviously still some distance to make up on the leading nations (well, nation, anyway).

[Taylorman]

Yeah thats a bit low...a theme for the weekend it appears.

The Welsh try to Cuthbert was brilliant I thought. Its not often a side is able to use quick ball, spread it wide and put an overlap run in try to the corner against the ABs

. They were caught out, simple as that, and its a taste of what they do to other sides again and again- apply some pressure, quick ball, spin it wide. The basics...Liam Williams final pass were executed perfectly...simple stuff really.

[BlueNote]

That's kind of you, Taylorman. I have always felt watching the ABs over many years that if you put them under sustained pressure, they creak just like everyone else and you can score tries, it's just that getting to that stage is that bit harder than against other teams!
I except from that the team that won the first W/C, which just blasted everyone away whatever they did.

[aucklandlaurie]

I didnt think it was too bad a game, ABs had all the momentum in the first half and wales came out and got some momentum in the second. However i do think that if Hore had of been red crded at the outset the ABs still would have had the ability to get the points to win at the end of 80.

two questions for wales

1 . Why on Earth did you let your coach go off and coach the Lions? it is killing your team.

2. Do young welsh rugby players not learn the meaning and benefits of accuracy?

Laurie, 2 very good points there.

1. I've said the same thing. It harmed us last time the whole team went as coaches on the last tour, it got Graham Henry sacked in 2001, and this time we've lost all momentum since a decent World Cup and good 6N. I think we should say to coaches that they need to be committed 100% to the cause. This is not a CPD opportunity; you're either with us for the whole of your contract or not at all. Instead of building on some relative success we're starting over again in his absence.

2. The problem with accuracy (are you talking about Pristleand at 10 and his inability to find touch?) is that they're not dropped to teach them a lesson. We're so paper thin in some positions that the likes of Priestland need to be picked again and again. In NZ I would imagine that a drop in form would result in a spell on the sidelines or being busted back to club level to regain form. Not in Wales; we try to play them back into form! This is why some of us are quite vocal about the selections. Gatland seems to ignore form quite often and go for players that he feels know the moves best regardless of whether they're in form.

The other thing regarding accuracy is that, for me, the club game here is a much slower pace. Players who seem capable at executing skills well at that pace at club level are then struggling to be as accurate with the increase in pace. That's when timing of passes is off, passes are behind the man, too far in front, kicks are mistimed, etc. Trying to bring the pace of international rugby to training and club rugby would be the answer but it's very hard to do!

Griff, yes we are both on the same page:

Item 1: We would never let the ABs coach any other team, and to coach Wales is a full time. all year round job, it also affects the players development programmes plus it disrupts the team as a whole.

item 2: Yes New Zealand won by scoring more points,but more importantly though, the ABs did the little things right (accurately), yes missing touch, but also the quick passes, the secure ball in hand, the decision making,etc etc. If this was reduced in Wales game I'm more than confident in saying you would be back to where you were last year in no time at all.

[samuraidragon]

Agree on Rees is is by far the best SH in Wales, for me Knoyle looked promising in the past but for me he has been poor this season. Webb who is not in the squad is mixed this year constantly kicking the ball away, he has probably been having lessons for Howley.

I'm also a fan of Rees, who is in the mould of the old classic 9s - a bit like Howley himself, in fact. I can understand preferring MP when a) he was in form, and b) we were lightweight up front, but that is no longer the case.

Isn't it another example of out-of-favour players being consigned to oblivion while misfiring incumbents are selected again and again. What we might call the James Michalak Hook syndrome. (In passing, F. Michalak scored more points than Samoa on Saturday - wonder what Marc Lievremont thinks of that!)

[wales606]

Agree on Rees is is by far the best SH in Wales, for me Knoyle looked promising in the past but for me he has been poor this season. Webb who is not in the squad is mixed this year constantly kicking the ball away, he has probably been having lessons for Howley.

I'm also a fan of Rees, who is in the mould of the old classic 9s - a bit like Howley himself, in fact. I can understand preferring MP when a) he was in form, and b) we were lightweight up front, but that is no longer the case.

Isn't it another example of out-of-favour players being consigned to oblivion while misfiring incumbents are selected again and again. What we might call the James Michalak Hook syndrome. (In passing, F. Michalak scored more points than Samoa on Saturday - wonder what Marc Lievremont thinks of that!)

I still think Phillips is no1. He is an excellent defensive player and probably saves a couple of turnovers a game by his physical presence at the breakdown, he also keeps the defence tight (something that Knoyle did very poorly against Argentina) giving more space to the Welsh backs. Those things make up for the occasional slow service (although his service has been pretty good recently)

He is also experienced, makes the right decisions and is a match winner by himself (his tries against Ireland in the WC 1/4 then against France in the SF - which almost turned the game around)

[RubyGuby]

Rees was awful when I watched him for Edinburgh last week, his kicking was woeful and stright into the oppositions hands and short. He has great qualities but I haven't seen them consistently for a long time. IMO he's made a dreadul career choice much like Dwayne Peel and he will disappear into the abyss. Its a shame we couldn't retain him in Wales.

[thebluesmancometh]

Ruby

He wasn't that bad, his box kicks werent chased well at all, and the pack really struggled!!! Don't get me wrong he wasn't great but woefull is harsh.

And when you put his move into context Edinburgh were HC semi finalists, Lloyd Williams had been given the 9 shirt and he needed first team rugby, the way he was treated by the Blues I think kinda looked like he had received news of his career ending through physical ability, other clubs didn't want to touch a guy ousted by the worst SH in the professional game.

[samuraidragon]

Can't see why a move to Edinburgh should be disastrous. They are centainly no worse than the Blues, and it's not exactly on the other side of the world.

[wales606]

Looks like the WRU have been making deals behind closed doors

"Paul James (Bath) and James Hook (Perpignan) have returned to their respective clubs, but Luke Charteris (Perpignan), Gethin Jenkins (Toulon) and Mike Phillips (Bayonne) have all remained with Wales."

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