London Welsh vs Saracens English Premiership

First topic message reminder :

Date: Sunday, October 7
Kick-off: 14:15 BST
Venue: Kassam Stadium
Referee: Luke Pearce
Assistant referees: Paul Dix, Nigel Carrick
Television match official: Graham Hughes
Timekeeper: Brian Abrahams

Two old, now exiled from London, adversaries meet for the first time since 1988. There are six changes that have been made by Lyn Jones to the starting line-up which went down narrowly 31-25 to Gloucester at the Kassam on Sunday.

Hooker Dan George, Gavin Henson and centre James Lewis replace Neil Briggs, Gordon Ross and Sonny Parker Briggs and Parker have injuries. As a key member of London Welsh's Championship winning team last season, former Ebbw Vale/Dragon centre James Lewis will be making his Premiership debut on Sunday. Canadian international Phil Mackenzie comes in on the ring wing, Tom Arscott reverting from 14 to 15, Former Quins academy Centre/Wing Seb Jewell named on the bench. Openside flanker Mike Denbee returns to the side following the injury replacing Michael Hills.

Saracens have rotated Alex Goode, Brad Barritt and Chris Ashton for Charlie Hodgson, David Strettle and James Short.

Like Strettle, George Kruis and Andy Saull both get their first game of the season. Nick Fenton-Wells and Kameli Ratuvou
could make their Saracens debuts.

Form: London Welsh started with two heavy defeats though almost put in three wins on the trot to see them rise quickly up the Prem table. Saracens beat Quins at The Stoop last Sunday without scoring a try. Worryingly for Saracens they haven't crossed the try line for three games. LW have scored four in the same amount of games.

This game may well not be the pasting that Saracens fans thought their team would be giving LW pre season. That said Saracens have to be huge favourites over newly promoted London Welsh who are playing with a budget of less than half Saracens.


The teams:

London Welsh: 15 Tom Arscott, 14 Phil MacKenzie, 13 James Lewis, 12 Hudson Tonga'uiha, 11 Nick Scott, 10 Gavin Henson, 9 Tyson Keats, 8 Ed Jackson, 7 Mike Denbee, 6 Daniel Browne, 5 Matt Corker, 4 Jonathan Mills (capt), 3 Paulica Ion, 2 Dan George, 1 Frank Montanella.
Replacements: 16 Greg Bateman, 17 Tom Bristow, 18 Arthur Joly, 19 Kirill Kulemin, Alfie To'oala, 21 Nick Runciman, 22 Ryan Davis, 23 Seb Jewell.

Saracens: 15 Chris Wyles, 14 David Strettle, 13 Joel Tomkins, 12 Owen Farrell, 11 James Short, 10 Charlie Hodgson, 9 Richard Wigglesworth, 8 Jackson Wray, 7 Andy Saull, 6 Will Fraser, 5 George Kruis, 4 Steve Borthwick (c), 3 Matt Stevens, 2 John Smit, 1 Rhys Gill.
Replacements: 16 Jamie George, 17 Mako Vunipola, 18 Carlos Nieto, 19 Mouritz Botha, 20 Nick Fenton-Wells, 21 Neil De Kock, 22 Kameli Ratuvou, 23 Duncan Taylor.

Score lads?

No consistency with the rolling maul!

Sarries + 5 points apparently, not sure of score though

23-28

How can you have a scrum when the clock is 0?

LW scrum penalty, good shove, but time.

beshocked wrote:How can you have a scrum when the clock is 0?

If its a penalty?

Ref tried his best to win it for LW. Better luck next time mate.

what happened? shouldn't the srum have been reset again? great performance by LW. Very impressed by GH as well.

Good match. Not bad for a first competitive appearance at 10 for over 8 yaers from Henson.

LW will survive this season.

beshocked wrote:Ref tried his best to win it for LW. Better luck next time mate.

How so? LW gained themselves the position and pressured the Sarries scrum. in the end the win would have been deserved. unlucky not to come away with it

kingjohn7 wrote:

beshocked wrote:How can you have a scrum when the clock is 0?

If its a penalty?

Correct, if the scrum is taken as the penalty option

Strange end but it must have been a LW error on the last scrum

Do I win anything?

mckay1402 wrote:

beshocked wrote:Ref tried his best to win it for LW. Better luck next time mate.

How so? LW gained themselves the position and pressured the Sarries scrum. in the end the win would have been deserved. unlucky not to come away with it

Ref gave LW virtually every decision in the scrum bar ironically a scrum that should have gone their way.

He continually allowed LW players to collapse mauls with no consequences. Especially the one when Saracens had an attacking maul near the LW try line. It was really clear a LW player came in from the side. Should have probably been sin binned.

Allowed skewed welsh line outs too.

Called wiggles worth offside twice which was very harsh.

Absolute shocker from the ref.

Saracens should have won that game by over 20 points.

Yes the ref seemed to have that underdog mentality some get where they give the 50/50 calls to the "weaker" team - but that was not the reason it was close. In the face of a decent defense Sarries basic skills let them down time and time again. They should have had 4 tries - but the messed up so many opportunities.

To be frank from the two viewings I have seen of London Welsh I still cannot understand how Exeter lost to them.

Thank you LT. It wasn't just me who thought the ref favoured LW. Btw Of course Saracens have had decisions go their way in previous matches but I don't think they did in this particular game.

I agree with you. Saracens should have won by a lot more. So many opportunities squandered. It's the case of LW taking virtually their only 2 chances and Saracens blowing numerous.

I am sure looking at the stats Saracens made far more metres, breaks and defenders beaten but yet again only 1 try.

LW fed off scraps. They are a limited side despite their 2 tries. IMO a better ref would have been more fair in his decisions.

I groaned when I saw the ref was just a pup.

irrespective of reffing interpretations - and as Healey pointed out every breakdown has a handful of things that could have been penalised - Sarries came close to being the architects of their own downfall.

Until that last play LW had not won any ball in the Sarries 22 (according to stats) their two visits to the Sarries 22 being as the tries were run in.

On the other hand Sarries played rather a lot of time in the LW 22 securing just 10 points from that time.

Sarries were poor but not helped by the ref - on at least two occasions Welsh brought down a rolling maul yards from their try line and got away without even a penalty (the first should have been a penalty try I think). Shortly after both of those events, Welsh scored their tries ...

Wow, the intensity and physicality of that game was quite breathtaking. London Welsh one week, Edinburgh the next in the heineken cup. No wonder the the big english clubs are crying foul.

Why did the ref just end the game like that? It was the only exciting part of the whole 80 minutes!!

Just watched the full match replay.
Gavin, that pass was beautiful.
I may have made an involuntary yelp when it happened.
Outstanding.

I can't decide if I enjoyed watching that match or not.

I thought that the referee did okay, he's new and will inevitably make mistakes, but on the whole, i thought he was ultimately fair to both teams. They've got to start reffing somewhere, I can't abide this 'NIMBY' attitude to which Ref officiates 'your' team'. Live with it.

Sarries actually tried to play rugby, I had to rub my eyes and kick myself, but it was true, they really did. Unfortunately, their basic skill was average. Its all very well saying that LW only played off scraps, and sure enough they did. But so what? They nearly won the match off the back of it (I think they should have had at least another penalty at the scrum in injury time - possibly even a Penalty Try). I hardly think any team would turn their backs on an opposition mistake, well done to LW for capitalising.

All in all, Saracens did not play to their full potential and it nearly cost them. LW have go to be more savvy, they were obviously cheating like mad at the breakdown but they don't yet have the nouse to get away with it.

Both teams: Must do better.

Jimpy what did you think about the rolling mauls? Is it ok to illegally bring them down near your try line in your opinion?

Yes LW nearly won the match but they didn't deserve to. LW got away with a lot.

I am not happy to having a poor inexperienced ref for a Saracens game. If you are happy to have one for a Leicester game good for you. Maybe you should recommend this ref to do all your games.

I have rarely seen a ref favouring one side this much.

Poor you, you're obviously very upset again.

So tell me, where are these Refs supposed to get their premiership experience?

LondonTiger wrote:To be frank from the two viewings I have seen of London Welsh I still cannot understand how Exeter lost to them.

It. Still. Hurts.

On another point that Henson pass was a thing of beauty, can't stand the chap but credit where it's due!

beshocked wrote:Jimpy what did you think about the rolling mauls? Is it ok to illegally bring them down near your try line in your opinion?

Yes LW nearly won the match but they didn't deserve to. LW got away with a lot.

I am not happy to having a poor inexperienced ref for a Saracens game. If you are happy to have one for a Leicester game good for you. Maybe you should recommend this ref to do all your games.

I have rarely seen a ref favouring one side this much.

No - but every team indulges in skulduggery to gain an advantage, the only difference between Saracens and LW yesterday, was that LW got caught more. Stop being so indignant, its not like Saracens don't push the envelope

Jimpy yes I am annoyed because one thing I can't stand is appalling refs.

They could ref Leicester games. Just no games involving Saracens.

I have a problem when the offences are so blatant that every man and his dog can see them bar the ref. The collapsing of the maul was very obvious.

He didn't just miss lots he was horrifically inconsistent. Might as well get someone to just flip a coin. Probably make better decisions than Luke Pearce.

beshocked wrote:Jimpy yes I am annoyed because one thing I can't stand is appalling refs.

They could ref Leicester games. Just no games involving Saracens.

I have a problem when the offences are so blatant that every man and his dog can see them bar the ref. The collapsing of the maul was very obvious.

He didn't just miss lots he was horrifically inconsistent. Might as well get someone to just flip a coin. Probably make better decisions than Luke Pearce.

Maybe Luke Pearce has formally served in the SAS? It was probably thought that he was the only referee posessing the stamina to stay awake during a Saracens match?

Stop moaning about it, he's a new referee, he was deemed competent to officiate on Sunday, it was 'your' turn this time. Maybe LW did get the rub of the green, but so what? Are you suggesting that his assistants were equally incompetent? By your rationale, they must have been - after all, it is their job to point out to the referee infringements that the referee misses - was there a collective failure, or just a singular one?

One thing is for sure. The LW tries were well worked and resulted from sloppy Saracens play, the referee had nothing to do with that.

Let it go Beshocked please.

Saracens by the style of their gameplan rely on conning the ref more then most so you really don't have a leg to stand on.

You can also be very thankful that he bottled it at the end of the match rather then resetting the scrum or awarding a pen.

I really don't think Saracens have anything to be upset about other then their own lack of ball skills, look at that second Welsh try, it had everything that Saracens couldn't manage to do.

yappysnap wrote:Let it go Beshocked please.

Saracens by the style of their gameplan rely on conning the ref more then most so you really don't have a leg to stand on.

You can also be very thankful that he bottled it at the end of the match rather then resetting the scrum or awarding a pen.

I really don't think Saracens have anything to be upset about other then their own lack of ball skills, look at that second Welsh try, it had everything that Saracens couldn't manage to do.

Damn right. Could easily have been a penalty try.

Jimpy he might have been deemed competent but that doesn't mean he was. Hopefully he doesn't get another Saracens game for a long long time.

LW's first try wasn't well worked. It was a poacher try. Saracens error. Granted the 2nd was good.

Yappysnap no I am not thankful to the ref. I hardly expect an one eyed Tigers fan and a Quins fan who is not exactly fond of Saracens either to be sympathetic.

Sod the end - I was upset with the whole 80 minutes of the ref. Yes the ref could have called another scrum possibly but that's one decision.

LW scored that try not longer after Saracens should have had at least a penalty for a collapsed rolling maul.

Anyway Saracens won - thank god.

beshocked wrote:Jimpy he might have been deemed competent but that doesn't mean he was. Hopefully he doesn't get another Saracens game for a long long time.

LW's first try wasn't well worked. It was a poacher try. Saracens error. Granted the 2nd was good.

Yappysnap no I am not thankful to the ref. I hardly expect an one eyed Tigers fan and a Quins fan who is not exactly fond of Saracens either to be sympathetic.

Sod the end - I was upset with the whole 80 minutes of the ref. Yes the ref could have called another scrum possibly but that's one decision.

LW scored that try not longer after Saracens should have had at least a penalty for a collapsed rolling maul.

Anyway Saracens won - thank god.

Talk about 'one eyed' Actually, if you bothered to read what we'd both written, rather than salivating and jumping up an down, you'd see that we are broadly sympathetic, but as adults capable of rational thought, accept that referees are human and make mistakes. No, I wouldn't mind if he refereed a Leicester game. I doubt 'Quins fans would mind him refereeing their matches either.

Saracens infringe just as much as everybody else, if not more, but have the savvy not to get caught too often. You can be sure that as soon as anyone starts doing it back, old big nose Borthwick is in the Ref's face like a footballer.

Good you should suggest it. Sigh you can't stop being haughty can you?

This ref didn't impact a match involving your side. On the contrary it involved one who will be both Quins and Leicester's title rivals. A win for LW would have suited both of you quite nicely.

The ref at least didn't do quite enough to prevent Saracens winning.

beshocked wrote:Good you should suggest it. Sigh you can't stop being haughty can you?

This ref didn't impact a match involving your side. On the contrary it involved one who will be both Quins and Leicester's title rivals. A win for LW would have suited both of you quite nicely.

The ref at least didn't do quite enough to prevent Saracens winning.

Honestly, do you know what the word 'ironic' means?

Jimpy you really are tiresome.

Poor Picard..he's getting quite an outing these days. Must be all the tension in the air.

Picard?

beshocked wrote:Jimpy you really are tiresome.

That comment demonstrates that Its quite clear that you don't know what it means. I may bore you, but then I suspect you have a rather short attention span.

Don't worry, you'll get over the weekend's performance. Its the HC this coming weekend, you're going to have to find another axe to grind for this time next week.

yappysnap wrote:Picard?

Why am I reminded of a certain Viz character every time yer man starts ranting?

What was his name? Timmy?

Well, as a relative neutral, I rather enjoyed that game - which is not what I usually say when watching a Sarries match!

Some great passages of play by both teams, although sloppy finishing/handling by Sarries meant they didn't quite get there. An awesome try by LW, of course.

I think Sarries were unlucky with some ref calls, but as Jimpy says, they're not saints themselves - that's just the rub of the green. All in all, a penalty try at the end which wasn't given vs a penalty try for the collapsed maul near the LW line more or less evens out.