RaboP12 (Round 1): Scarlets vs Leinster k/o - 18:30 Sat, 1 September 2012 (Parc y Scarlets)

First topic message reminder :

We are into the final countdown to the start of the season. A home win, a heavy away loss, and a tight away draw against Gloucester, Saints and Sale is a mixed bag of warm up games. Once teams are out, I'll throw them in here.

Leinster Team
15: Isa Nacewa
14: Andrew Conway
13: Brendan Macken
12: Noel Reid
11: Fionn Carr
10: Ian Madigan
9: Isaac Boss

1: Heinke van der Merwe
2: Richardt Strauss
3: Jamie Hagan
4: Damian Browne
5: Devin Toner
6: Dominic Ryan
7: Shane Jennings CAPTAIN
8: Leo Auva'a

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Aaron Dundon
17: Jack McGrath
18: Martin Moore
19: Tom Denton
20: Jordi Murphy
21: John personey
22: Collie O'Shea
23: Darren Hudson

Scarlets team v Leinster Saturday 1st September 2012, Parc y Scarlets kick off 18.30.

15 Liam Williams, 14 George North, 13 Gareth Maule, 12 Scott Williams, 11 Andy Fenby
10 Aled Thomas, 9 Tavis Knoyle, 1 Rhodri Jones, 2 Ken Owens, 3 Deacon Manu, 4 George Earle, 5 Richard Kelly, 6 Aaron Shingler, 7 Josh Turnbull, 8 Rob McCusker (capt)

Replacements: 16 Matthew Rees, 17 Phil John, 18 Samson Lee, 19 Sione Timani, 20 Kieran Murphy, 21 Gareth Davies, 22 Rhys Priestland, 23 Jonathan Davies

Players unavailable through injury are Dale Ford, Gareth Owen, Morgan Stoddart, Emyr Phillips, Jake Ball, Joel Galley and Rob Evans.

Leinster are clearly in crisis.

And the Top 6 of the Pro 12 tonight are:

Dragons
Scarlets
Ulster
Treviso
Munster
Cardiff


That should keep the Franglos happy.

Or maybe, just maybe, its a grandly balanced plan. A pre-set momentum, slowly building throughout the season? We have made both the PRO12 and HC Finals twice since he came. After really bad starts.

Hmmmm?

Thomond wrote:Leinster are clearly in crisis.

id like to see reid go to a championship side and get some regular gametime and bulk up abit. He just isnt good enough right now ,but there is potential there. Carr was extremely dissapointing and needs to improve his defence QUICK!

I wouldnt be too worried guys, just remember the team that was out there you guys, i didnt expect a win, okay they didnt give a hard fought loss but well every year we lose our first match, i felt a bit of pressure went on Joe in his first year because they didnt instantly click but then after the munster win they went on a great run and nobody said a bad word about him. Just have faith guys.

And Noel Reid will never get better cause he went to Micheals

Numerous points to make.

1. Before the match I was v nervous. Our first teams lost to your 2nd team last season so I wasn't taking anything for granted. We hadn't beaten you for 3 years, this for the Scarlets was a huge match.

2. Relief. We won, but not only won but won well (trust me, it's been a LONG time since we've done that against Irish opposition).

3. Annoyance. I can't believe we let you get 20. I hope that doesn't sound arrogant as I don't mean it to, but how the match was going, we were so far the better side, I think it reflects badly on us that we let you get that many.

4. Worry. Our scrum wasn't great. Okay it wasn't our first choice front row or anything but still, it will be our achillies heel again this season I feel.

5. Annoyed again. That was an appalling crowd. Considering we almost got 5,000 for a pre-season friendly last week, I was expecting about 8K. 6,500 just isn't good enough for us.

6. Pride. So chuffed with some of the lads. Georgie is scoring for us again. Tavis is finding his form after a horrific season with injuries last year. Sanjay (Liam Williams to most) is such a wonderfully talented hot head, I love him, he's pure Scarlet to the core and a proper asset.

7. Hopeful. Mentally, this was a massive game for us (I know some of you Leinster lads won't have realised it). We've had an appalling record against Irish sides for the last few seasons that this win was v important for us. The skill we showed in our handling is so much improved from last season, that I have glimmers of hope of what is to come.

8. Worry again. We have provided Leinster with the perfect ammunition to deal out a hefty dose of revenge in the Heineken. We don't have that many players to bring in for that. They do.

Interesting times await!

I am just happy. 7 tries, most of them delicious to watch live. I am a happy Scarlet

for all.

The point about the scrum is a good one, I felt Hagan did well, hopefully he will play alot of Rabo matches as he needs game time. Ireland and Leinster need someone to replace Ross, he's the front runner at the moment. Well done to Scarlets though, they were like a bully, absolutley ruthless, but the next time we see each other Leinster will be older and bigger and have turned into the tough guy on the street that everyone is scared of. Savour your win Scarlet fans, Savour it good.

ha fear not I shall!

and we didn't bully you, we let you score! (I think this is a big step in the Scarlets' fan psyche, that we are a bit disappointed with a win like that)

Bit worried bout the Heineken, but we've still got our signings to come in too who knows!

We'll see rugby dreamer, we'll see, or sorry i just thought of this, keep dreaming

I'm someone who tells bad jokes but that was simply awful.

fair do's that was a bit pants!

Looking forward to re-watching the match in the morning on S4C!

Yeah well im no comedian, none the less I'll be laughing next time we play

ooof now that there's some fighting talk

I mean you could well be right, but still.....ya never know!

Dont worry dreamer i know enough for both of us

drsambo1928 wrote:The point about the scrum is a good one, I felt Hagan did well, hopefully he will play alot of Rabo matches as he needs game time. Ireland and Leinster need someone to replace Ross, he's the front runner at the moment. Well done to Scarlets though, they were like a bully, absolutley ruthless, but the next time we see each other Leinster will be older and bigger and have turned into the tough guy on the street that everyone is scared of. Savour your win Scarlet fans, Savour it good.

Declan Fitzpatrick is easily the best option at tighthead after Ross - very strong scrummager but not great in the loose.

Oh yeah, I forgot abot Fitzpatrick, Hagan will be Ross' replacement for Leinster anyway

drsambo1928 wrote:Yeah well im no comedian, none the less I'll be laughing next time we play

As long as yer not tellin jokes at SH, Drum, we'll be grand man.

Indeed, Leinster time baby

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Well said Gibson, It always makes me laugh when people say "Ohh look how weak the Rabo is, Leinster are playing their '2nd side'" Ignoring the fact that that Leinster side is so strong it would beat most England/French (and Welsh/Scottish) sides, and the fact that developing your own players and strengthening your squad is what EVERY successful team should be aiming to do.

We have an 'A' league for that & dual registered players.

Doesn't 6,500 fans turning up for the first game of the season against the HC champs tell more of a story?

I realise there were probably no away fans like a lot of Rabo games but that is not a good indication for the rest of the season.

On a plus side Scarlets took their chances well, however, there was only going to be one winner.

Not really BigTrev. We hadn't beaten you since 09 and we lost to your 2nd team last season. Not sure people are aware just how significant this win actually is for the Scarlets.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Well said Gibson, It always makes me laugh when people say "Ohh look how weak the Rabo is, Leinster are playing their '2nd side'" Ignoring the fact that that Leinster side is so strong it would beat most England/French (and Welsh/Scottish) sides, and the fact that developing your own players and strengthening your squad is what EVERY successful team should be aiming to do.

We have an 'A' league for that & dual registered players.

Doesn't 6,500 fans turning up for the first game of the season against the HC champs tell more of a story?

I realise there were probably no away fans like a lot of Rabo games but that is not a good indication for the rest of the season.

On a plus side Scarlets took their chances well, however, there was only going to be one winner.

Trev, WTF are you on about man?

drsambo1928 wrote:The point about the scrum is a good one, I felt Hagan did well, hopefully he will play alot of Rabo matches as he needs game time. Ireland and Leinster need someone to replace Ross, he's the front runner at the moment. Well done to Scarlets though, they were like a bully, absolutley ruthless, but the next time we see each other Leinster will be older and bigger and have turned into the tough guy on the street that everyone is scared of. Savour your win Scarlet fans, Savour it good.

Don' worry we will get the Ospreys to beat up big bad Leinster

Gibson wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Well said Gibson, It always makes me laugh when people say "Ohh look how weak the Rabo is, Leinster are playing their '2nd side'" Ignoring the fact that that Leinster side is so strong it would beat most England/French (and Welsh/Scottish) sides, and the fact that developing your own players and strengthening your squad is what EVERY successful team should be aiming to do.

We have an 'A' league for that & dual registered players.

Doesn't 6,500 fans turning up for the first game of the season against the HC champs tell more of a story?

I realise there were probably no away fans like a lot of Rabo games but that is not a good indication for the rest of the season.

On a plus side Scarlets took their chances well, however, there was only going to be one winner.

Trev, WTF are you on about man?

What is the purpose of the IRFU's holding on to players?

It used to be justified for putting steel in the spine of the national team. Now apparently it's to justify HEC success.

I understand entirely where Trev comes from. 6½k pitched up for the Scarlets for the opening game against the European champions.

And he was dwelling I think on the pillock Neil Francis gobshoite in the Irish Independent.

rugbydreamer wrote:Not really BigTrev. We hadn't beaten you since 09 and we lost to your 2nd team last season. Not sure people are aware just how significant this win actually is for the Scarlets.

Dreamer - I am actually a Wasps supporter.

But any team with play off expectations (like Scarlets?) would surely have been very disappointed not to put away that Leinster side.

we'd have been disappointed aye, but it's what would have happened over the last couple of seasons (and why we've finished 5th two years in a row), this is a big step forward for us

(and apologies for thinking you were a Leinster fan! )

Well Im just happy with the win. It's been a long time since we beat Leinster, first team or not.
We all know that Leinster will be in the top 4 come the end of the season but the Scarlets need to make sure they don't slip up in games like this as it could cost us a place.
Well done boys, let's hope for a couple of good results on the road before coming home to face the Ospreys.

Portnoy as I imagine you know full well, the IRFU's player participation agreement is exactly the same as the EPL one and the Welsh one (and so on), it's to ensure access to international players, and to ensure that they aren't over played or getting so fatigued that they are injured all the time.

It's done all the time, and generally squad rotation and building a strong competitive squad so you can compete across all competitions is considered a good thing - except of course when it comes to the Rabo...

And while Leinster were missing a large number of players they still have a very strong squad, while the Scarlets have in the past been in a rebuilding phase on a shoestring and have suffered from Leinsters/Munsters superior mental attitude and ability to grind out wins when they shouldn't, where as with the large amount of youngsters and 'green' players we have thrown away an awful lot of games in the past. As such this is a great result, and not at all expected (margin of victory) or counted on in anyway.

And this links to my humble post re setting up a Player Watch table. It'd be very easy to see how much game time various players are getting across the various leagues. https://www.606v2.com/t34398-the-player-watch-project

Pretty disappointed I got to say. I thought we were going to lose but I didn't think the performance would be like that. I guess the outlook of the match was somewhat confirmed when our first team guys got taken off early.

I do expect more from our academy players however in terms of basics like tackling, handling and then the commitment and desire just didn't seem to be there. Guys like Macken have a huge opportunity with internationals away and his main rival O'Malley out for a while so I was hoping that he'd show more.

Positives:
1) I thought Hagan did really well in particular the scrums. I was surprised to be honest and it was good to see he looks like he has stepped it up a bit
2) Jenno was pretty good in almost everything he did, be it the work on the floor, the carries, the tackles he put in.
3) Madigan's kicking from hand was much improved compared to games last season. His few kicks at goal were good too.

Negatives:
1) Our defence was seriously poor. We were so passive in our line speed, letting them come on to the ball and make yards.
2) Our tackling from a number of players was sub standard.
3) Some handling was sub standard too and that is really un-Leinster like.
4) Our midfield axis was too small, too weak, too inexperienced, too passive, too error prone. Reid I don't think has a future with Leinster at all, Macken has to really step it up if he is to have one. Carr can be added to the Reid bracket and Conway added to the Macken bracket.
5) Ryan's injury (anyone know how serious it is?)
6) Damien Browne is quite poor, reminds me of Hayes in his last 2 years, getting from ruck to ruck but not doing much when he gets there, a powerful lad who isn't putting his power or size to much use

Agree with that pete. I was surprised at how well hagan did and also martin moore and jack mcgrath played well when they came on. I wonder if we'll see coughlan at 12 next week. I for one hope so. As i said in an earlier post i would like to see reid go to a championship side and get some regular gametime and bulk up abit. He does have potential.

I amn't sure he has he potential to be a player that we need. I am sure he could make a squad player in a weaker team but I just don't think he will work out with Leinster.

I'd like to see Coughlan at 12 too to be honest just to create a physically more imposing balance. Even if he doesn't utilise his what has to be somewhat limited distribution game but he can be used to get us going forward.

After watching the Leinster Scarlets game, what is becoming increasingly striking is how little strength in depth there is in Irish rugby and how few options Declan Kidney has outside the current international squad.

Even though the Irish provinces are missing a number of their internationals, the Welsh regions are already understrength given the dozens of Welsh internationals now plying their trade in France and England.

James hook, mike phillips, lee byrne, luke charteris, gethin jenkins, aled brew, stephen jones, dwayne peel, paul james, rhys Gill.......I could go on and on.

Of the scarlets team that started on saturday, only George North is a Wales regular and therefore In all honesty I would have expected Leinster to be far more competitive.

Scrumdown - we have 4 at the most internationals playing abroad that are involved in the current Wales set up. Not exactly that much. (tis a bugbear of mine that people keep saying we've loads and loads of players playing abroad when we don't)

Dreamer I think your underplaying it a touch...

Phillips
Charteris
Jenkins
Hook
James

Are all fully fledged internationals, not to mention Powell, Bennet, Gill, Jones, who have all been involved in the last 12 months.

Plus the few boys who are young enough and talented enough to give the shirt a bash still, Brew, Roberts, Mitchell etc..

I wouldn't say the Welsh regions are massively hampered by this but I was given the chance to see it from a differing point of veiw the other day by a very knowledgable freind...

Would a home based Wales team be dominant over a Wales exiles team?

Hook and James are bench players at best these days and even Charteris' starting position isn't guaranteed.

Don't think I'm underplaying it at all. I think it's complete media hysteria that there's an issue with the amount of quality players that are no longer playing in Wales.

And of course a home based team would be dominant.

Scrum, we are missing the following players:

Cian Healy
Sean Cronin
Mike Ross
Kevin McLoughlin
Jamie Heaslip
Eoin Reddan
Jonny Sexton
Gordon Darcy
Brian O' Driscoll
Rob Kearney
Fergus McFadden
Sean O Brien (injured/op)
Eoin O' Malley (injured)
Dave Kearney (injured)
Rhys Ruddock (injured)
Luke Fitzgerald (injured/op)

Have I missed someone?
16 1st teamers. 14 internationals. We should have had more structure, in defence at least - that's true. But hey, these young guys will gel and get some fluency over the next few weeks.
Like they did last year, when most of them won the PRO12 proper. I expect a massive improvement v Dragons at the RDS next week.

And in fairness, Scarlets were on fire yesterday.

Really???

An Exiles team would include

Gill
Bennet
Jenkins/Mitchell
Charteris
Delve
Powell
Phillips/Roberts
Jones
Hook
Henson?
Brew
Thomas
Byrne
Williams (is he in Japan now???)

And thats just off the top of my head, that exiles team are possible a decent lock and specialist 7 from being pretty competitive, and would be slightly worrying in a few areas!!

Dominant? I don't think so.

rugbydreamer wrote:Scrumdown - we have 4 at the most internationals playing abroad that are involved in the current Wales set up. Not exactly that much. (tis a bugbear of mine that people keep saying we've loads and loads of players playing abroad when we don't)

What has 'involved in the current set up' have to do with it?

Our regions would be boosted by players such as craig mitchell, lee byrne, aled brew, andy powell, gareth delve, eifion roberts, nicky robinson as well as the more obvious ones like hook and phillips.

Seriously? Delve and Powell have never been that great for Wales. We have better scrum halfs in Wales than Roberts that are already pushing Phillips for the shirt. Jones I hate to say it, does not have the pace for international rugby anymore.
Hook is too hit and miss recently to have much confidence in him.
Henson - not physically up to it anymore.
Brew I have never rated enough to play for Wales.
Williams has retired from international rugby
Byrne - a bit passed it now, we have better FB's in 1/2p and Sanjay
Thomas - I am assuming you mean Martyn? never Wales international standard.

Yep, a home Wales team would be dominant. (all just my opinion like, am sure others would disagree, just think we have a far better quality of players in Wales then we do playing outside of it)

Scrumdown wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Scrumdown - we have 4 at the most internationals playing abroad that are involved in the current Wales set up. Not exactly that much. (tis a bugbear of mine that people keep saying we've loads and loads of players playing abroad when we don't)

What has 'involved in the current set up' have to do with it?

Our regions would be boosted by players such as craig mitchell, lee byrne, aled brew, andy powell, gareth delve, eifion roberts, nicky robinson as well as the more obvious ones like hook and phillips.

Scrum - if senior players didn't leave, how would our up and coming youngsters have a chance to play and get experience? It's the exact problem Ireland have. Their older players don't leave, their young guys don't get experience, they have a smaller pool of talent to choose from. When the Welsh lads reach about 29+ think it's a good thing that they leave. Tisn't a problem.

Gibson

I don't thinkk they're all starters though, and of those who are I'd say the big losses are Sexton, Healy, and Kearney only!

Strauss is the form hooker in europe IMO, VDM very close to starting, Heaslip in poor form from his Irish showings, Reddan and Boss similar stature, Darcy and BOD starting to struggle with opposing players pace these days, and mcfadden wouldn't have offered much more than the youngsters on show.

Injuries aside I'd say the Leinster team was more missing 5 or so key players rather than a straight out second string.

Dreamer

I understand your points and I actually agree with you that their loss isn't as great as the media make out, but if the 12-15 players had stayed in Wales would the regions not be stronger?

Would the regions not be more competitive in the HC?

Would the regions not pull in bigger crowds?

Would the 'stars' of the game not raise it's profile?

I believe that the right answer lays somewhere between yours and scrum POV's, and probably more central than either of you care to agree with.

I agree with you there rugbydreamer and I dont think the regions get the credit they deserve for bringing through all these youngsters.

Not really bluesman, and you've left out one of their most important players - Mike Ross who is an awful lot better than young Jamie Hagan. Nacewa, Strauss and Toner the only starters in that Leinster team. A lot of those guys like Macken and Reid arent even second choice they are academy players.

They'd be stronger in the very short term bluesman but the players who have left are coming to the ends of their careers (in the most part). They'd be blocking developing talent.

Scarlets have been drawing in bigger crowds by playing their youngsters (and the same seems to be happening now at the O's)

The 'stars' of the game are by and large the younger internationals like 1/2p, North etc

The only way it would benefit us is the Heineken, but the way the WRU structures the international fixtures, I don't see the benefit of having even more internationals playing for the regions and only having limited time with the regional squads to train for the Heineken rounds (as will happen for rounds 3 and 4).

So, think we should let the older players go, and develop our youngsters, if they stay with sides until they are 27 or so, the balance will be right to compete in the Heineken then.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Really???

An Exiles team would include

Gill
Bennet
Jenkins/Mitchell
Charteris
Delve
Powell
Phillips/Roberts
Jones
Hook
Henson?
Brew
Thomas
Byrne
Williams (is he in Japan now???)

And thats just off the top of my head, that exiles team are possible a decent lock and specialist 7 from being pretty competitive, and would be slightly worrying in a few areas!!

Dominant? I don't think so.

I think an exiles team could actually be as strong as any of the regions

1. Gethin Jenkins
2. Huw Bennett
3. Craig Mitchell

(A stronger front row than any but the ospreys)

4. Luke Charteris
5.

6. Andy Powell
7.
8. Gareth Delve

9. Mike Phillips
10. Stephen Jones

(Stronger than all the 1/2 back combinations)

12. Gavin Henson
13. James Hook

(Potentially stronger than all but the Scarlets)

11. Aled Brew
14. Shane Williams
15. Lee Byrne

(Pretty strong back 3, all would make the Dragons back 3 for example)

16. Rhys Gill
17. Effion Lewis Roberts
18. Thomas Rhys Thomas
19.
20.
21. Dwayne Peel
22. Nicky Robinson
23. Jamie Robinson

........................

Apart from Lock and the Backrow I think the exiles team would be stronger than any of the regions at the moment.

Hook not a star? Nor Gethin Jenkins? Come on!!!!

My point is teams are all developing in cycles, and to get hold of 22 players in their late 20's, prime of their careers is what every team is looking for to win trophies, trophies = local histeria = crowds = money = bigger squads = more trophies!

The Welsh regions havn't been competitive in europe yet, and until they are the crowds won't turn up!

So in the short term it might hamper development slightly but would ignite the regional game for the first time, and lets be honest thats what we're all waiting for!

I don't feel like this shows us anything we didn't already know about either side. We all know the Scarlets can tear anyone up if they get on the front foot and into a rhythm, and we all know Leinster start the season badly and are looking particularly vulnerable right now.

What we don't know is how Leinster will look in a couple of weeks when they gel a bit more and start getting big hitters back or how Scarlets will deal with sides that match them up front or play the ref better or attack their set piece or otherwise disrupt their possession and rhythm.

I would love to see some highlights though.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Gibson

I don't thinkk they're all starters though, and of those who are I'd say the big losses are Sexton, Healy, and Kearney only!

Strauss is the form hooker in europe IMO, VDM very close to starting, Heaslip in poor form from his Irish showings, Reddan and Boss similar stature, Darcy and BOD starting to struggle with opposing players pace these days, and mcfadden wouldn't have offered much more than the youngsters on show.

Injuries aside I'd say the Leinster team was more missing 5 or so key players rather than a straight out second string.

You dont actually realise how much you miss darcy until he isnt there. He is so solid in the centre. Same with BOD. We couldnt have won the HC without them. So they are most definately mist.