Lennox Lewis - Convince Me

First topic message reminder :

There has been a lot written and said about Lewis on here recently and given this and the fact he is a guy I have always found myself at best lukewarm on and at worst thoroughly unconvinced by I thought I would revisit an old thread from the BBC to see where other people stand or if my eyes can be made to see what others see in him that has thus far alluded me.

Appreciate this is one of those can of worms type of subjects on here but Lennox Lewis is one of those guys along with Frazier who I really struggle with when ranking the heavyweights, so would like to get some kind of opinions as to whether guys think he deserves to be considered a top ten heavyweight or just generally where folk stand on him

In his defence he only lost two times and both losess were avenged in decent fashion. Also at his best he could be a devastating guy, in fights such as Grant, Ruddock and Briggs and a guy who showed an ability to vary his tactics for the opponent such as in the Tua victory and finishing his career with a win over a guy who is widely accepted as the best of the next generation in Vitali at an age when most fighters are reaching for the pipe and slippers is IMO very impressive and probably doesn't get the credit it deserves.

Against Lewis is his level of opposition isn't great, but as has been argued reasonably countless times that is probably true of many a heavyweight we consider great. Another rap which I feel is a bit harsh is that Lennox never fought a lot his natural rivals in their prime, although he can't be blamed Bowe chucked the belt in the bin or that Tyson went to prison and he did beat a version of Holyfield who was still had a little left in the tank, although even how much can be questioned given Holy followed these fights by going life and death with John Ruiz, but whichever way you look at it his record is perhaps missing one of those blue chip wins that can be the difference between good and great.

Guess for me though the thing that really counts against Lennox is the two guys he lost against are really not from the top drawer, could probably forgive one loss to such a guy as we all know one punch can turn a heavyweight fight round at any time but to make the same mistake twice is sloppy in the extreme and whilst his cheerleaders will argue one punch can turn any heavyweight bout Lewis is the only “great” who is guilty of getting sparked twice by second tier guys so surely it has to count against him

I may be being a little negative about the guy but think at the minute what sticks in my craw the most about him is the way he is portrayed as Mr Excitement or his era was some golden age for the heavies because as someone who lived through his era I certainly don’t remember it being perceived as such at the time and if I think back now I struggle to think of too many Lewis fights I would be in any kind of haste to revisit, but like I say I am here to be convinced.

rowley wrote:There have been a couple of mentions of Ali Cooper thus far and do think a couple of key differences need pointing out re this and Lewis’ unfortunate losses. The first and most obvious is Cooper only came close to knocking Ali out or stopping him, world of difference between coming close to doing something and actually achieving it. The second thing is Ali’s near miss came in his pre title days when he was still a work in progress and errors are a little more inevitable and forgivable. Lewis was in both occasions a reigning world champion and certainly in the case of Rahman was slap bang in the middle of what most everyone would consider his prime.

Realise I am not telling anyone anything they do not already know here but do feel they need pointing out as the comparison is only valid to a point when one considers these factors to my thinking.

You are. I thought Ali was prime and wc.

I think Lewis is the greatest of all time but I subscribe to the physicality / nutrition argument

seanmichaels wrote:
You are. I thought Ali was prime and wc.

I think Lewis is the greatest of all time but I subscribe to the physicality / nutrition argument

It is true Lewis was fat, but not all modern heavyweights are fat with terrible diets - Wlad and Vitali are in excellent shape.

fearlessBamber wrote:

seanmichaels wrote:
You are. I thought Ali was prime and wc.

I think Lewis is the greatest of all time but I subscribe to the physicality / nutrition argument

It is true Lewis was fat, but not all modern heavyweights are fat with terrible diets - Wlad and Vitali are in excellent shape.

Not what I meant. Reckon he was a talented klitschko.

firstly i have to say i first started watching boxing when lennox was fighting, so he (and calzaghe/naz) will always be amongst my favourite ever fighters. there are a few points about lewis's career.

i think if you avenge a loss then it should be seen as a positive instead of a negitive point. if froch decided to rematch ward and won it then i think that would read better than 1 less defeat on a record. however i have to say im not sure if the 2nd fight with mccall can really be seen as a victory.

i think he olympic acheivements are also overlooked and i like to see fighters who fight all he way through (ie amatuers, british, euro) and earn there shot. alot of champions today are just handed title shots.

i also think why lewis gets looked on favourably is because he defeated a prime vitali in his last fight when he was no where near his best and wlad wont be considered the same level due to his unavenged loss (his brother had to do that). that means no heavyweight since lennox has had a claim to be as great.

Slightly above Bowe around the top 15 mark for me!!!

As I've said on many occasions he had no defining fight......

I'd pick Wlad to beat Holy, Tyson, Mercer and Ruddock when he fought them....

However he beat some decent guys and took on the best around!!

So he deserves the great label...just not top 10 for me!!

seanmichaels wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Agree with Rodders... He is a good fighter but was always prone to the odd mistake. Getting ko'd by average fighters like Rahman and McCall doesnt happen to top level fighters. People bang on about him being lazy, not something I buy in to if i'm honest. He turned up for a fight and lost, end of.

Top15/20.

Henry cooper was domestic. He was a second away from ko'ing the greatest. No good having one argument for one.......

But he didn't, thats the point.

I was maybe a little harsh with the rankings, I'd have him about 12.

not had time to read through other posts so sorry if i go over old ground.

the thing is he gets critized for his loses, but which is worse? getting beat by oppenent who isnt as good even though you were in shape (something like tyson v douglas im thinking which shows flaws in a boxer) or beat by lesser oppenents for being lazy perhaps arrogant and slipping up but avenging them.

like all boxers we could pick holes in many a record but the thing is he was never beaten when he was on top form. when comparing truely greats you always think of them in top form and because of that i think lewis does well. yes you have to have a black mark against him for the two poor loses but lets face it he would never have came in like he did against rahman for a top oppenent.

for me i have him somewhere between 7-10

Discuss as much as you want. Watch him box and determine what he is capable of. The fact is Lennox is a top 5 Heavyweight ATG....and Anyone who says otherwise should follow another sport. Seriously.

May as well just delete this thread and never talk of it again then. Shame on all of us - I'm off to the wrestling board.

TheMackemMawler wrote:Discuss as much as you want. Watch him box and determine what he is capable of. The fact is Lennox is a top 5 Heavyweight ATG....and Anyone who says otherwise should follow another sport. Seriously.

I quite agree. Formidable jab? Check. Awesome power? Check. Great uppercut? Check. Solid chin? Check. Good defence? Check. Quality resume? Check. Undisputed champ? Check. I'd probably rank him at 3 in the ATG HW list, just behind Louis and Ali.

And let's take some Quotes from former Boxers on Lewis:

"You're a masterful boxer." Mike Tyson said to Lennox Lewis jsut after their bout in Memphis.

“Lennox is beyond doubt the greatest heavyweight of all time, he is not second any more. He is there at the top of the tree. He reminded me of a young George Foreman and an elusive Muhammad Ali. He has everything you want in a fighter." George Foreman.

“I’m here because I was the greatest,” Muhammad Ali told an ecstatic crowd in Toronto. “I’m now no longer the greatest. He’s the greatest, he’s the champ,” he said, pointing to Lennox Lewis.

"At least Holyfiled has a warriors heart. It's more than I can say for Lennox Lewis. He's a joke - a big athletic guy who's strictly a front runner. Put him in against a fighter that stands up to him like Ray Mercer did and Lewis is exposed as a man that does not like a real fight. Lennox Lewis is just a heavyweight wannabe" - Larry Holmes

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Slightly above Bowe around the top 15 mark for me!!!

As I've said on many occasions he had no defining fight......

I'd pick Wlad to beat Holy, Tyson, Mercer and Ruddock when he fought them....

However he beat some decent guys and took on the best around!!

So he deserves the great label...just not top 10 for me!!

perhaps canada's greatest heavy truss? just shading george chuvalo?

rowley wrote:"At least Holyfiled has a warriors heart. It's more than I can say for Lennox Lewis. He's a joke - a big athletic guy who's strictly a front runner. Put him in against a fighter that stands up to him like Ray Mercer did and Lewis is exposed as a man that does not like a real fight. Lennox Lewis is just a heavyweight wannabe" - Larry Holmes

He liked a 'real fight' when he was in an absolute war against Vitali and won.

superflyweight wrote:May as well just delete this thread and never talk of it again then. Shame on all of us - I'm off to the wrestling board.

Fishing for me Superfly, I know less about that than boxing but it looks quiet so I suspect they'll be glad of the company.

rowley wrote:"At least Holyfiled has a warriors heart. It's more than I can say for Lennox Lewis. He's a joke - a big athletic guy who's strictly a front runner. Put him in against a fighter that stands up to him like Ray Mercer did and Lewis is exposed as a man that does not like a real fight. Lennox Lewis is just a heavyweight wannabe" - Larry Holmes

old larry bigpants always had such a chip on his shoulder... he fought a stupid fight, but i'd say lewis showed plenty of cojones against mercer.

“Lennox is beyond doubt the greatest heavyweight of all time, he is not second any more. He is there at the top of the tree. He reminded me of a young George Foreman and an elusive Muhammad Ali. He has everything you want in a fighter." George Foreman.

as much as i like george foreman, i'd always take his platitudes with a pinch of salt.

i'm not sure a list of quotes from fellow pro's is enhancing the debate

rowley wrote:"At least Holyfiled has a warriors heart. It's more than I can say for Lennox Lewis. He's a joke - a big athletic guy who's strictly a front runner. Put him in against a fighter that stands up to him like Ray Mercer did and Lewis is exposed as a man that does not like a real fight. Lennox Lewis is just a heavyweight wannabe" - Larry Holmes

Really???

Why fight and win when you can box and win? For your benefit? I doubt it. The fact that Lewis consciously decided HOW he would win a fight is testament to his greatness.

TheMackemMawler wrote:Discuss as much as you want. Watch him box and determine what he is capable of. The fact is Lennox is a top 5 Heavyweight ATG....and Anyone who says otherwise should follow another sport. Seriously.

It isn't a fact, it is your opinion. Top 5 fighters dont get levelled twice by plodders. Lennox did.

Sheer arrogance.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

TheMackemMawler wrote:Discuss as much as you want. Watch him box and determine what he is capable of. The fact is Lennox is a top 5 Heavyweight ATG....and Anyone who says otherwise should follow another sport. Seriously.

It isn't a fact, it is your opinion. Top 5 fighters dont get levelled twice by plodders. Lennox did.

Sheer arrogance.

Apart from this, this is my last EVER reply to you Jack. I think you are a bit of a plonker. Harsh, perhaps? Sheer arrogance, maybe. My opinion, yes. Go follow football. Goodbye.

TheMackemMawler wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

TheMackemMawler wrote:Discuss as much as you want. Watch him box and determine what he is capable of. The fact is Lennox is a top 5 Heavyweight ATG....and Anyone who says otherwise should follow another sport. Seriously.

It isn't a fact, it is your opinion. Top 5 fighters dont get levelled twice by plodders. Lennox did.

Sheer arrogance.

Apart from this, this is my last EVER reply to you Jack. I think you are a bit of a plonker. Harsh, perhaps? Sheer arrogance, maybe. My opinion, yes. Go follow football. Goodbye.

I'd usually expect more from an adult, but you are a mackem I suppose.

In every list of top ten heavyweights I could never put Holmes above Lewis. Which fight of Holmes would you count as memorable apart from his championship winning war with Norton? His demolition of Cooney is often mentioned but he was just an overated white hope, at least Lewis fought everyone he was allowed to and as for suffering embarassing losses most of the top heavies have been there,Loius wasn't supposed to lose against Schmelling and Ali should never have lost to someone who'd only had seven pro fights but they did and lived to fight another day.

milkyboy wrote:

i'm not sure a list of quotes from fellow pro's is enhancing the debate

Totally agree superfly, hence why I posted a less effusive one from Holmes, personally don't feel providing a few quotes adds much unless we are going to ananlyse and accept both thr positive and the negative to get a more rounded picture of how his rivals and predecesors view him.

rapidringsroad wrote: and as for suffering embarassing losses most of the top heavies have been there,Loius wasn't supposed to lose against Schmelling and Ali should never have lost to someone who'd only had seven pro fights but they did and lived to fight another day.

The key difference is Louis did it whilst still a work in progress and Ali did it as a 38 year old who should have retired many a year ago, we can put whatever spin we like on the Lewis losses but the one thing we cannot get away from he is the only top tier heavyweight who has been sparked twice as a champion by second tier level fighters.

Lewis was just on Radio 2 being interviewed by Chris Evans. He is still awful at talking to people...

TheMackemMawler wrote:The fact is Lennox is a top 5 Heavyweight ATG....and Anyone who says otherwise should follow another sport. Seriously.

Can we just stay on the boards but go into an amateur section? I am quite fond of the place.

trottb wrote:

TheMackemMawler wrote:The fact is Lennox is a top 5 Heavyweight ATG....and Anyone who says otherwise should follow another sport. Seriously.

Can we just stay on the boards but go into an amateur section? I am quite fond of the place.

You're welcome to join me on fishing

rowley wrote:

trottb wrote:

TheMackemMawler wrote:The fact is Lennox is a top 5 Heavyweight ATG....and Anyone who says otherwise should follow another sport. Seriously.

Can we just stay on the boards but go into an amateur section? I am quite fond of the place.

You're welcome to join me on fishing

Are you a fisherman rowley? Been bed ridden all week and was thinking of organising a fishing trip to cure the boredom

rowley, what about wlad, he was sparked twice and is still considered a top heavyweight?

rowley, what about wlad, he was sparked twice and is still considered a top heavyweight?

No one views him as a top 5 though and very few would rate him above Lewis.

eddyfightfan wrote:rowley, what about wlad, he was sparked twice and is still considered a top heavyweight?

Is a good deal of the reason though that the suggestion he deserves to be anywhere higher than top 15 is seen as sacriledge, both have been sparked by rubbish, if you wanted to be harsh though you could point out of the two Lewis is the only one who has managed it slap bang in the middle of his prime.

Unless we're taking in to account the fact that Lennox is a nicer and more approachable bloke than Larry, then I really don't see any way that Lewis can be above Holmes.

Holmes' one title reign accounted for more successful defences than the three of Lewis put together. Opposition beaten by the pair is largely comparable, and it's an inescapable fact that Holmes was never detached from his titles by journeyman once, never mind twice, the way Lewis was.

I maintain that Lewis commands a place in the top ten, but he doesn't deserve to be above Holmes, in my opinion.

seanmichaels wrote:

Are you a fisherman rowley? Been bed ridden all week and was thinking of organising a fishing trip to cure the boredom

No mate, was just looking for another board since I don't have Lewis in the top five and it seemed as nice a place as any.

rowley wrote:

eddyfightfan wrote:rowley, what about wlad, he was sparked twice and is still considered a top heavyweight?

Is a good deal of the reason though that the suggestion he deserves to be anywhere higher than top 15 is seen as sacriledge, both have been sparked by rubbish, if you wanted to be harsh though you could point out of the two Lewis is the only one who has managed it slap bang in the middle of his prime.

McCall I was certainly nowhere near Lewis' prime. I wouldn't say Rahman was either although it is a far more damaging defeat. Anyone can get caught once and knocked out, and it was still a pretty raw version of Lewis that got flattened by McCall. But, the Rahman defeat is very poor, purely because he was woefully under prepared and far too over-confident considering what happened in '94.

Tina would argue Rahman is as near as makes no difference, unless we start getting into the realms of Tyson and his prime between breakfast and lunch one day arguments Rahman is about as close as you'd care to get.

alma wrote:

Was it nowhere near his prime? He was 29 or whatever and a world champion. Bit harsh to say he was raw?

No harsher than saying it was slap bang in the middle of his prime. It doesn't matter how old he was, he improved beyond measure after 1994. He was not even close to his prime which probably came around 1999 - 2000.

rowley wrote:Tina would argue Rahman is as near as makes no difference, unless we start getting into the realms of Tyson and his prime between breakfast and lunch one day arguments Rahman is about as close as you'd care to get.

I wouldn't argue that strongly Jeff for sake of a year or two, hence why I said it was it more damaging. I am splitting hairs over the 'slap bang in the middle' part but McCall certainly isn't. By any objective review of his career.

Not sure that Lewis' defeat to McCall can really be considered too far out of his prime Tino, if at all. I don't really think he was as green and / or raw as others do, though that's just my take on it.

He was only about twenty-five fights or so in to his career, but that was after a long amateur career consisting of two Olympic campaigns, one of which brought him a gold medal. In the professional ranks he'd already taken on - and beaten - good names like Ruddock, Tucker and Bruno, so I'm not so sure that he can have any excuse of being a little raw when McCall stopped him. Besides, it's not as if McCall represented a step up from those names, or as if he was a formidable test which just came a little too soon for Lennox.

The Rahman defeat was certainly more damaging, I agree, but I still think that the McCall one is pretty horrendous, too.

88Chris05 wrote:Not sure that Lewis' defeat to McCall can really be considered too far out of his prime Tino, if at all. I don't really think he was as green and / or raw as others do, though that's just my take on it.

He was only about twenty-five fights or so in to his career, but that was after a long amateur career consisting of two Olympic campaigns, one of which brought him a gold medal. In the professional ranks he'd already taken on - and beaten - good names like Ruddock, Tucker and Bruno, so I'm not so sure that he can have any excuse of being a little raw when McCall stopped him. Besides, it's not as if McCall represented a step up from those names, or as if he was a formidable test which just came a little too soon for Lennox.

The Rahman defeat was certainly more damaging, I agree, but I still think that the McCall one is pretty horrendous, too.

I'm not saying it isn't a bad defeat, I said that way back on page one. Both defeats are conclusive and damaging, but Rahman is far more inexcusable. You can argue that he wasn't 'too far' out of his prime, but he certainly wasn't in it by any stretch. We can list name after name and pick them apart, but Lewis was a better fighter from 1997 onwards than he was in '94. I don't really see how an argument can be made that he wasn't. He had better balance, better technique and more importantly, a trainer that was tailor made to get the best out of him.

I am not saying he was a novice and we should expunge the McCall fight from memory, but there is no way he was as polished a fighter in 1994.

About the defeats. The first one against McCall was a controversial stoppage and it happened when Lewis was pre-prime and before he was being coached by Manny Steward. The defeat was avenged. The second defeat against Rahman was due to Lewis being under-motivated and he wasn't at his best in the ring. A prime and motivated Lewis avenged the defeat later that year with ease. The key point - no one ever got the better of a fit, motivated and in his prime version of Lennox Lewis.

The key point - no one ever got the better of a fit, motivated and in his prime version of Lennox Lewis.

Same point could be argued in relation to Ali, Louis, Holmes, Johnson, Foreman, Jeffries, Dempsey, Marciano, Tyson and Wlad (as well a number of others).

I've been defending Lewis on this board and the old 606 for a few years now and whilst I do think he gets undue criticsim at times, he also does tend to get, from some quarters, a pass on two defeats which really shouldn't happen to someone of his ability. Whilst I would defend his position in the top 10, they contribute heavily to him being excluded from the top 5.

Duty281 wrote:About the defeats. The first one against McCall was a controversial stoppage and it happened when Lewis was pre-prime and before he was being coached by Manny Steward. The defeat was avenged. The second defeat against Rahman was due to Lewis being under-motivated and he wasn't at his best in the ring. A prime and motivated Lewis avenged the defeat later that year with ease. The key point - no one ever got the better of a fit, motivated and in his prime version of Lennox Lewis.

Nonsense. The Rahman fight was Lewis' prime. As for him being unfit, well thats his own silly fault isnt it. Being fit doesn't make your chin stronger, and Rahman certainly proved he could be stopped.

To many excuses go round to justify losses. An ATG (which Lewis apparently is) doesnt get flattened twice during his title reign. Especially by the type of fighter he got spanked off.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

Duty281 wrote:About the defeats. The first one against McCall was a controversial stoppage and it happened when Lewis was pre-prime and before he was being coached by Manny Steward. The defeat was avenged. The second defeat against Rahman was due to Lewis being under-motivated and he wasn't at his best in the ring. A prime and motivated Lewis avenged the defeat later that year with ease. The key point - no one ever got the better of a fit, motivated and in his prime version of Lennox Lewis.

Nonsense. The Rahman fight was Lewis' prime. As for him being unfit, well thats his own silly fault isnt it. Being fit doesn't make your chin stronger, and Rahman certainly proved he could be stopped.

To many excuses go round to justify losses. An ATG (which Lewis apparently is) doesnt get flattened twice during his title reign. Especially by the type of fighter he got spanked off.

I'm not saying he was unfit or post-prime. I'm saying he wasn't motivated. He was cutting corners in training and even filming a movie during his training camp. Yes, it was his own fault and when he came back for the rematch he destroyed Rahman.

Duty281 wrote:About the defeats. The first one against McCall was a controversial stoppage and it happened when Lewis was pre-prime and before he was being coached by Manny Steward. The defeat was avenged. The second defeat against Rahman was due to Lewis being under-motivated and he wasn't at his best in the ring. A prime and motivated Lewis avenged the defeat later that year with ease. The key point - no one ever got the better of a fit, motivated and in his prime version of Lennox Lewis.

Your bound to be biased thought aren't you Violet.

Nobody has even beaten a PRIME Amir Khan.

Prescott he was green and Garcia he had to share his trainer. Against Peterson the ref was mean to him...

Ergo, Amir and Lennox are the greatest.

alma wrote:

And anyway, where's Gordy? This whole thread was designed to reveal more of his bon mots.

Do feel a little hurt Alma, is like sending a Valentines and big bunch of roses to a girl only for her to totally blank you the next time you see her.

alma wrote:

rowley wrote:

alma wrote:

And anyway, where's Gordy? This whole thread was designed to reveal more of his bon mots.

Do feel a little hurt Alma, is like sending a Valentines and big bunch of roses to a girl only for her to totally blank you the next time you see her.

Do you speak from experience?

A yorkshireman buying flowers? and paying valentines day prices? Think about it Alma

i found a bunch tied to a lampost, didnt read the messages but our lass was pleased.

Depends on what criteria you use to rate fighters I think. As seen on another thread, methods can differ quite significantly amongst individuals.

I think there are alot things about Lewis that are revisionist. Especially in terms of how he was percieved at the time, the extent of his dominance and how much he was avoided (or at least the reasons behind it). I think Lewis and his legacy benefitted greatly from good timing. Timing is crucial for any fighter but Lewis met his biggest rivals Tyson and Holyfield when he was basically at his peak and they were well past theirs. He never fought Bowe, and despite him blameless in this, I cant help feel this was a fight he could well have lost when it was touted. The same goes for fights with Tyson and Holyfield had they happened at a different time. for these reasons I dont really buy into his dominance (even withstanding his actual losses).

However by my own criteria I would find it hard not to include him in the top ten and would be interested to the basis that others who dont include him use. Im pretty well schooled in most of the arguments against Lewis, and I think alot of them have merit. But I also think that one can pretty much do the same with any of the other heavyweights outside of Ali, Louis and possibly Holmes. Marciano, well we wont go there. But Johnson had a rubbish title reign, Foremans didnt hang onto the title very long and looked a spent force after Ali, Jeffries was a heavyweight amongst light heavies and middles and is a fighter I suspect fares quite poorly in the head to heads with other top heavyweights. Dempseys title reign isnt all that spectacular either and he was ousted by a light heavyweight coming up. So there are arguments against most of the top ten contenders. I dont think Lewis seperated himself from the chasing pack in any substantial way but I would struggle to leave him out of the top ten altogether and think he could feature easily enough between 5-10 depending on what one values.

Jab machine would need several viagra tablets after reading this thread and waingro some magic beans

Lewis is top 10 for me, I find it hard to separate him and Larry Holmes if I'm honest, both without names, Holmes a place ahead due to Lewis shocking defeats,

An interesting point had Lewis decided not to retire after Vitali, do you think he could enhance his legacy ?

Of course if Lewis did get past Klitschko a second time which I would favour him to do so then it could have been plain sailing for his next few fights. Future mandatory opponents could have included Kirk Johnson, Hasim Ramhan, Oleg Maskaev, and Sam Peter.

Cheers

Rodders