How To Take 20 wickets?

637 for two and they lost their opener for a duck. That's not good if you're an England fan.

One down and two to play and 20 wickets to take, 40 if we want to win this series.

Can this attack do it and how can they?

5 bowlers with Finn replacing Bops?

Stick with six batsmen, create scoreboard pressure and replace Bresnan with Finn who is more dangerous with the cherry?

Play the same team and hope this attack bowls like it can?

Name the same squad - nobody has done anything so bad that they need dropping completely. But recognise that it is important we give SA something new to think about. What that is really depends on conditions - stick with Bresnan if we think reverse swing is going to be the thing, go to Onions in seaming conditions or to Finn otherwise.

We need the sixth batsman - we wouldn't have come even as close as we did to saving the game without one - and I think changing to a 5-man attack at this stage would be to say we were wrong after all. No need for that sort of indecision.

Shelsey93 wrote:Name the same squad - nobody has done anything so bad that they need dropping completely. But recognise that it is important we give SA something new to think about. What that is really depends on conditions - stick with Bresnan if we think reverse swing is going to be the thing, go to Onions in seaming conditions or to Finn otherwise.

We need the sixth batsman - we wouldn't have come even as close as we did to saving the game without one - and I think changing to a 5-man attack at this stage would be to say we were wrong after all. No need for that sort of indecision.

Sorry, but that's a very disingenuous argument. They were nowhere near saving the game & Bopara's 22 was inconsequential. There's no point picking 6 batsmen if the extra guy doesn't perform - he's just wasting a spot.

Replace Bresnan with either Finn or Onions depending on the pitch. No need for knee jerk reactions. South Africa have a tendency to collapse in the 2nd Test of a series. They collapsed to an innocuous SL bowling attack last year. One bad match doesnt make our bowling attack bad. I think we will need 5 bowlers in India but no such change required for the next Test. Finn or Onions for Bresnan. Thats all! Bat first, bat big! Scoreboard pressure and watch SA collapse *choke* under pressure.

amanuensis wrote:

Shelsey93 wrote:Name the same squad - nobody has done anything so bad that they need dropping completely. But recognise that it is important we give SA something new to think about. What that is really depends on conditions - stick with Bresnan if we think reverse swing is going to be the thing, go to Onions in seaming conditions or to Finn otherwise.

We need the sixth batsman - we wouldn't have come even as close as we did to saving the game without one - and I think changing to a 5-man attack at this stage would be to say we were wrong after all. No need for that sort of indecision.

Sorry, but that's a very disingenuous argument. They were nowhere near saving the game & Bopara's 22 was inconsequential. There's no point picking 6 batsmen if the extra guy doesn't perform - he's just wasting a spot.

Bopara needs backing. He has this series - the whole series unless we need to play 5 bowlers for any reason (not now) - to prove his definite worth. If he doesn't England will rightly move on.

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Replace Bresnan with either Finn or Onions depending on the pitch. No need for knee jerk reactions. South Africa have a tendency to collapse in the 2nd Test of a series. They collapsed to an innocuous SL bowling attack last year. One bad match doesnt make our bowling attack bad. I think we will need 5 bowlers in India but no such change required for the next Test. Finn or Onions for Bresnan. Thats all! Bat first, bat big! Scoreboard pressure and watch SA collapse *choke* under pressure.

They look like they mean business to me. They may have choked in the past but that counts for nothing now.

One thing, a grey day in Yorkshire will be different to a sunny one in Surrey.

Shelsey93 wrote:

amanuensis wrote:

Shelsey93 wrote:Name the same squad - nobody has done anything so bad that they need dropping completely. But recognise that it is important we give SA something new to think about. What that is really depends on conditions - stick with Bresnan if we think reverse swing is going to be the thing, go to Onions in seaming conditions or to Finn otherwise.

We need the sixth batsman - we wouldn't have come even as close as we did to saving the game without one - and I think changing to a 5-man attack at this stage would be to say we were wrong after all. No need for that sort of indecision.

Sorry, but that's a very disingenuous argument. They were nowhere near saving the game & Bopara's 22 was inconsequential. There's no point picking 6 batsmen if the extra guy doesn't perform - he's just wasting a spot.

Bopara needs backing. He has this series - the whole series unless we need to play 5 bowlers for any reason (not now) - to prove his definite worth. If he doesn't England will rightly move on.

And if his failure in this series is a reason for England losing it (he's already made a "contribution" to that), what then? Do we just accept that? Sorry, but no thanks - they need to be ruthless now & he looks hopeless frankly.

If there are to be changes, then it should be personnel only. England's bowling is their strongest asset, and IMO the top 6 are vunerable and have shown that against any top attack they come up against. Weakening it further (regardless of what people think of Bopara, replacing him with a bowler is weakening the batting) makes little sense.

Even the great Australian bowling line-up suffered at times. I remember Warne bowling around 50 overs in Kolkata for no wickets which India getting over 600 and turning round and bowling the Aussies out for less than 200.

England's bowlers have earned the belief placed him them from fans and most importantly England management. One Test match should not change that.

Looking ahead to the 3rd test match of this test series, should England lose badly again with guys like Strauss and Bopara failing to put 30 runs on the scoreboard per innings, should England's selectors then look to blood new uncapped batsmen in a dead rubber test match. If they somehow do decide on this move who will they look to bring in. Candidates include Sam Northeast who is finally starting to fulfill his potential, also there are others like James Taylor, James Vince and the Somerset duo of James Hildreth and Nick Compton.

Stella wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Replace Bresnan with either Finn or Onions depending on the pitch. No need for knee jerk reactions. South Africa have a tendency to collapse in the 2nd Test of a series. They collapsed to an innocuous SL bowling attack last year. One bad match doesnt make our bowling attack bad. I think we will need 5 bowlers in India but no such change required for the next Test. Finn or Onions for Bresnan. Thats all! Bat first, bat big! Scoreboard pressure and watch SA collapse *choke* under pressure.

They look like they mean business to me. They may have choked in the past but that counts for nothing now.

One thing, a grey day in Yorkshire will be different to a sunny one in Surrey.

They also looked like they mean business in India in Feb 2010. Thrashed them by an innings at Nagpur. Amla 252 not out in that Test. Kallis scored something like 170. Steyn took 10 wickets. They looked invincible.


And
Choked at Kolkata!

amanuensis wrote:And if his failure in this series is a reason for England losing it (he's already made a "contribution" to that), what then? Do we just accept that? Sorry, but no thanks - they need to be ruthless & he looks hopeless frankly.

It was one match. And he didn't look hopeless - admittedly he played poor shots in both innings, but anyone can get out early in a Test innings, and he played very nicely until he got out second time round.

As I say if he fails all series it will be back to the drawing board. But until then he needs backing - I think he can be a fabulous number six for us.

Finn for bresnan. hasn't done much wrong but finn can give england so much more. he can bring control, as he has shown in the odi series, plus he can bring his extra pace and bounce, whether it be on a flat wicket or a lively wicket.

the guy has sat on the sidelines for long enough. look we're batting down to prior then swann, avg 20 odd and broad, also avg 20 odd with a test hundred are more than enough. the batsman will have learned from their mistakes of not cashing in after their starts. the bowlers desperately need something a bit more and finn will bring this to the table.

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

Stella wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Replace Bresnan with either Finn or Onions depending on the pitch. No need for knee jerk reactions. South Africa have a tendency to collapse in the 2nd Test of a series. They collapsed to an innocuous SL bowling attack last year. One bad match doesnt make our bowling attack bad. I think we will need 5 bowlers in India but no such change required for the next Test. Finn or Onions for Bresnan. Thats all! Bat first, bat big! Scoreboard pressure and watch SA collapse *choke* under pressure.

They look like they mean business to me. They may have choked in the past but that counts for nothing now.

One thing, a grey day in Yorkshire will be different to a sunny one in Surrey.

They also looked like they mean business in India in Feb 2010. Thrashed them by an innings at Nagpur. Amla 252 not out in that Test. Kallis scored something like 170. Steyn took 10 wickets. They looked invincible.


And
Choked at Kolkata!

They may learn from their mistakes then? History is just that. This game will surely be closer, however that doesn't mean they will 'choke'

Stella wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

Stella wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Replace Bresnan with either Finn or Onions depending on the pitch. No need for knee jerk reactions. South Africa have a tendency to collapse in the 2nd Test of a series. They collapsed to an innocuous SL bowling attack last year. One bad match doesnt make our bowling attack bad. I think we will need 5 bowlers in India but no such change required for the next Test. Finn or Onions for Bresnan. Thats all! Bat first, bat big! Scoreboard pressure and watch SA collapse *choke* under pressure.

They look like they mean business to me. They may have choked in the past but that counts for nothing now.

One thing, a grey day in Yorkshire will be different to a sunny one in Surrey.

They also looked like they mean business in India in Feb 2010. Thrashed them by an innings at Nagpur. Amla 252 not out in that Test. Kallis scored something like 170. Steyn took 10 wickets. They looked invincible.


And
Choked at Kolkata!

They may learn from their mistakes then? History is just that. This game will surely be closer, however that doesn't mean they will 'choke'

Thats not the only occasion.

Against the same opposition later that year, they thrashed India at Centurion. Choked at Durban. Or against SL last year in the 2nd Test against a crap bowling attack.

Shelsey93 wrote:

amanuensis wrote:And if his failure in this series is a reason for England losing it (he's already made a "contribution" to that), what then? Do we just accept that? Sorry, but no thanks - they need to be ruthless & he looks hopeless frankly.

It was one match. And he didn't look hopeless - admittedly he played poor shots in both innings, but anyone can get out early in a Test innings, and he played very nicely until he got out second time round.

As I say if he fails all series it will be back to the drawing board. But until then he needs backing - I think he can be a fabulous number six for us.

He got out to poor shots at poor times in the match - you can't do much worse than that in test cricket. Besides, England can't bring in Finn as 1 of 4 bowlers - he needs to bowl short spells to maintain his pace.

martyr wrote:Finn for bresnan. hasn't done much wrong but finn can give england so much more. he can bring control, as he has shown in the odi series, plus he can bring his extra pace and bounce, whether it be on a flat wicket or a lively wicket.

the guy has sat on the sidelines for long enough. look we're batting down to prior then swann, avg 20 odd and broad, also avg 20 odd with a test hundred are more than enough. the batsman will have learned from their mistakes of not cashing in after their starts. the bowlers desperately need something a bit more and finn will bring this to the table.

Agree with you that Bresnan's batting needn't come into it. However, we should be careful of over-hyping Finn - he is a good bowler but doesn't yet have the skill to work out a batsman quite as Anderson and Bresnan in particular do. We can't expect him to make all the difference, nor would he have at The Oval.

Shelsey93 wrote:

martyr wrote:Finn for bresnan. hasn't done much wrong but finn can give england so much more. he can bring control, as he has shown in the odi series, plus he can bring his extra pace and bounce, whether it be on a flat wicket or a lively wicket.

the guy has sat on the sidelines for long enough. look we're batting down to prior then swann, avg 20 odd and broad, also avg 20 odd with a test hundred are more than enough. the batsman will have learned from their mistakes of not cashing in after their starts. the bowlers desperately need something a bit more and finn will bring this to the table.

Agree with you that Bresnan's batting needn't come into it. However, we should be careful of over-hyping Finn - he is a good bowler but doesn't yet have the skill to work out a batsman quite as Anderson and Bresnan in particular do. We can't expect him to make all the difference, nor would he have at The Oval.

Bresnan cant really be effective against this batting line up at the pace that he has been bowling this year. No wonder he averages 40 with the ball post injury. Has lost pace and in turn his effectiveness. He doesnt have the skills of an Anderson or an Asif to survive at 78 mph.

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

Stella wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

Stella wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Replace Bresnan with either Finn or Onions depending on the pitch. No need for knee jerk reactions. South Africa have a tendency to collapse in the 2nd Test of a series. They collapsed to an innocuous SL bowling attack last year. One bad match doesnt make our bowling attack bad. I think we will need 5 bowlers in India but no such change required for the next Test. Finn or Onions for Bresnan. Thats all! Bat first, bat big! Scoreboard pressure and watch SA collapse *choke* under pressure.

They look like they mean business to me. They may have choked in the past but that counts for nothing now.

One thing, a grey day in Yorkshire will be different to a sunny one in Surrey.

They also looked like they mean business in India in Feb 2010. Thrashed them by an innings at Nagpur. Amla 252 not out in that Test. Kallis scored something like 170. Steyn took 10 wickets. They looked invincible.


And
Choked at Kolkata!

They may learn from their mistakes then? History is just that. This game will surely be closer, however that doesn't mean they will 'choke'

Thats not the only occasion.

Against the same opposition later that year, they thrashed India at Centurion. Choked at Durban. Or against SL last year in the 2nd Test against a crap bowling attack.

Spain use to choke when it came to major finals but then all of a sudden it stopped. Just because it has happened before, I'm not pinning my hopes on them doing it again.

Nothing wrong in being optimistic, I guess

i really think finn can make the difference. i think that we have some real quality batsmen to get out, so you need something a bit different. the england bowlers are all very similar speeds and bowl almost identiacally. finn can play that morkel role, pace and bounce but i think he can control the ball better than morkel.

what has struck me about finn is his bowling to left handers, he's come on a mile there. he bowls just on off stump on a length, which has caused all sort of problms for the batsmen he's bowled against. he can then switch it slightly with the pitched up delivery pitching middle and off and sliding across the batsmen. he could make the real difference.

we have all said how unlucky he has been to miss out to bresnan, now its time to say that bresnan is the unlucky one this time.

I think it may be time for Finn. We have six bats and Broad and Swann, why pick Bresnan because he can bat better?

We're one down and it's time to gamble.

Stella wrote:I think it may be time for Finn. We have six bats and Broad and Swann, why pick Bresnan because he can bat better?

How do you know Bresnan is in the team becasue of his batting?

agreed stella,

like you and i said, is bresnan really needed for his batting when you have someone like prior at 7, with broad and swann there also. its up to the batters to score the runs, which they did to some extent 1st innings but got nowhere near as much as they should have, and bowlers need to take 20 wickets, we took 2.

liverbnz wrote:

Stella wrote:I think it may be time for Finn. We have six bats and Broad and Swann, why pick Bresnan because he can bat better?

How do you know Bresnan is in the team becasue of his batting?

I don't but I'm guessing it's a trait the selectors like.

liverbnz wrote:

Stella wrote:I think it may be time for Finn. We have six bats and Broad and Swann, why pick Bresnan because he can bat better?

How do you know Bresnan is in the team becasue of his batting?

Its the only thing for me he has over finn for me, his batting skills, although i'm sure finn could get allot better whilst in the england set up, due to the emphasis put on the lower order scoring runs.

martyr wrote:

liverbnz wrote:

Stella wrote:I think it may be time for Finn. We have six bats and Broad and Swann, why pick Bresnan because he can bat better?

How do you know Bresnan is in the team becasue of his batting?

Its the only thing for me he has over finn for me, his batting skills, although i'm sure finn could get allot better whilst in the england set up, due to the emphasis put on the lower order scoring runs.

But it's unlikely to be the defining reason for Bresnan being picked over Finn. England have gone with an 8,9,10 and 11 of Swann, Tremlett, Finn and Anderson or Broad, Tremlett, Anderson and Panesar before so they are not afraid of the tail being long. He's in the team for his control, reverse swing and his record when playing for England.

liverbnz wrote:

martyr wrote:

liverbnz wrote:

Stella wrote:I think it may be time for Finn. We have six bats and Broad and Swann, why pick Bresnan because he can bat better?

How do you know Bresnan is in the team becasue of his batting?

Its the only thing for me he has over finn for me, his batting skills, although i'm sure finn could get allot better whilst in the england set up, due to the emphasis put on the lower order scoring runs.

But it's unlikely to be the defining reason for Bresnan being picked over Finn. England have gone with an 8,9,10 and 11 of Swann, Tremlett, Finn and Anderson or Broad, Tremlett, Anderson and Panesar before so they are not afraid of the tail being long. He's in the team for his control, reverse swing and his record when playing for England.

but i'm sure, as nasser hussain alluded too, england are looking to get finn in but just can't seem to do it, and i'm pretty sure imo anyway, that they look at bresnan and yes he's bowled decently, his batting get's him in for me ahead of bresnan.

If they felt he was a better option than Bresnan with the ball then he would be in IMO and perhaps he will be at Headingly, although I have my doubts. Finn was dropped for Bresnan 18 months ago in Australia and that decision has been merited since.

Finn is an improved bowler for me. He bowled a few loopers in Aus and looked average. Since then he has looked as dangerous as anyone.

i never understood him being dropped, he took 6 wickets. anyway it all worked out. its just nice to think we can have a debate over two real quality players, with people like onions also still there in contention.

Stella wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Replace Bresnan with either Finn or Onions depending on the pitch. No need for knee jerk reactions. South Africa have a tendency to collapse in the 2nd Test of a series. They collapsed to an innocuous SL bowling attack last year. One bad match doesnt make our bowling attack bad. I think we will need 5 bowlers in India but no such change required for the next Test. Finn or Onions for Bresnan. Thats all! Bat first, bat big! Scoreboard pressure and watch SA collapse *choke* under pressure.

They look like they mean business to me. They may have choked in the past but that counts for nothing now.

One thing, a grey day in Yorkshire will be different to a sunny one in Surrey.

If you are hanging your hopes on us "choking" in a test, you haven't got much hope Shanky.

I hope that comment comes back to bite you biltongbek

Stella wrote:Finn is an improved bowler for me. He bowled a few loopers in Aus and looked average. Since then he has looked as dangerous as anyone.

completely agree with this, he was quite low on pace and for me looked very average, i was a big onions fan and really was hoping he would be fit in time but was nowhere near ready to return.

he's now added a yard of pace and now looks like a genuine world class bowler. on the onions front, i'll still never get ove ronions being dropped for that final test in sa. when i saw sidebottom's name on the sheet, i couldn't believe it. he had been superb in the series so far, and sa even admitted they had made plans as he was causing them a fair bit of problems.

martyr wrote:i never understood him being dropped, he took 6 wickets. anyway it all worked out. its just nice to think we can have a debate over two real quality players, with people like onions also still there in contention.

It wasn't a decision I'd have made right then, but it worked and in hindsight made a lot of sense. It is very difficult for a pace bowler to keep the intensity up over a 5 match series. So if you have good and fresh back up options, why not use them instead of tired bowlers? England sensed that Finn was tiring during that Perth game and, having seen the impact Tremlett had coming in at Perth, went with the gut feeling that a fresh Bresnan's style of bowling would suit the MCG better than a mentally and physically tired Finn. It worked. A similar type of decision could be made this summer.

Shelsey93 wrote:

martyr wrote:i never understood him being dropped, he took 6 wickets. anyway it all worked out. its just nice to think we can have a debate over two real quality players, with people like onions also still there in contention.

It wasn't a decision I'd have made right then, but it worked and in hindsight made a lot of sense. It is very difficult for a pace bowler to keep the intensity up over a 5 man series. So if you have good and fresh back up options, why not use them instead of tired bowlers? England sensed that Finn was tiring during that Perth game and, having seen the impact Tremlett had coming in at Perth, went with the gut feeling that a fresh Bresnan's style of bowling would suit the MCG better than a mentally and physically tired Finn. It worked. A similar type of decision could be made this summer.

Agreed! Though I dont think Bresnan is "tired" this summer. He just hasnt looked the same bowler post elbow surgery.

Who has more potential, and can add more value? Ravi at 6, or Finn taking his place? I'd have to say Finn. WE MUST get 20 wickets, so that must be the priority. And hope we can bat well enough to give us a chance.

liverbnz wrote:I hope that comment comes back to bite you biltongbek

It's possible to lose any test mate, it is even possible to lose 5 wickets in a session, but we don't choke in test matches.

Biltong

Isn't 'How to choke at Cricket' on the school curriculum in South Africa?

yeah, but it is a short course..... get it? T20, ODI.....

biltongbek wrote:

liverbnz wrote:I hope that comment comes back to bite you biltongbek

It's possible to lose any test mate, it is even possible to lose 5 wickets in a session, but we don't choke in test matches.

Of course South Africa choke in test matches, with the best example being South Africa's first Test Match back after isolation in 1992 V West Indies where after the end of day 4, South Africa looked likely to win after only losing 2 wickets chasing a small total with only 100 odd runs left to get. However during day 5, South Africa's batsmen choked and bottled it big time against the pace and fire of Ambrose and Walsh who went through the rest of South Africa's batting like a knife through butter.

DouglasJardinesbox wrote:Who has more potential, and can add more value? Ravi at 6, or Finn taking his place? I'd have to say Finn. WE MUST get 20 wickets, so that must be the priority. And hope we can bat well enough to give us a chance.

'Scoreboard pressure' can help take wickets as well though. By having 6 batsmen plus Prior, there is a better chance for us to get that.

Stella wrote:

DouglasJardinesbox wrote:Who has more potential, and can add more value? Ravi at 6, or Finn taking his place? I'd have to say Finn. WE MUST get 20 wickets, so that must be the priority. And hope we can bat well enough to give us a chance.

'Scoreboard pressure' can help take wickets as well though. By having 6 batsmen plus Prior, there is a better chance for us to get that.

Particularly against SA, scoreboard pressure will definitely help in "choking" the Saffers.

SA had quite a choke in the Oval test when they collapsed from 260/1 to 260/2.

I wouldn't say that SA 'choke' as such. But rather like England, things tend to snowball when they find themselves in a spot of bother in a match.

In one-day cricket I don't actually think they've been a particularly strong side since the days of Klusener, Gibbs, Pollock, Rhodes, Cronje and Donald. Though, with better planning, the current side have the potential to challenge and they will never be truly awful with AB and co. in the side. There biggest issue has been depth in batting - in the last World Cup they were often 5 out and all out, which doesn't help.

Galted wrote:SA had quite a choke in the Oval test when they collapsed from 260/1 to 260/2.

Yeah, I must admit I panicked there for a moment.

Headingley does give our bowlers more chance of taking 20 wickets as it will surely give more seam/swing movement than the Oval, but the only trouble is that our batting line up has struggled on pitches that provide some pace and movement (Headingley 09, Wanderers 09/10, Perth) and not just in spinning conditions in the sub continent. For that reason, as well as others, I can't envisage us going in with 5 bowlers. That is nearly a certainty. Anderson will play, as he is our best bowler, and he is a given but both Broad and Bresnan lacked a bit of nip in the last game and it's been mentioned they were both a bit "floaty" and weren't hitting the bat as hard as they can, but I can't see both being left out as it doesn't really fit with this management teams MO for picking a side. If one goes, which I think they have to, then it has to be Bressy for me as Broad has more potential to be a match winner and has been superb since the start of the India series last year. As for who to come in, it is a tough one. Both Finn and Onions have their pro sides, but I would perhaps lean towards bringing Onions in at Leeds with a few to Finn playing at Lords, his home ground, in the final Test.

Or Strauss just borrows some of Michael Atherton's dirt...

JDizzle wrote:Or Strauss just borrows some of Michael Atherton's dirt...

Atherton won't know what you are talking about there...

JDizzle wrote:Headingley does give our bowlers more chance of taking 20 wickets as it will surely give more seam/swing movement than the Oval, but the only trouble is that our batting line up has struggled on pitches that provide some pace and movement (Headingley 09, Wanderers 09/10, Perth) and not just in spinning conditions in the sub continent. For that reason, as well as others, I can't envisage us going in with 5 bowlers. That is nearly a certainty. Anderson will play, as he is our best bowler, and he is a given but both Broad and Bresnan lacked a bit of nip in the last game and it's been mentioned they were both a bit "floaty" and weren't hitting the bat as hard as they can, but I can't see both being left out as it doesn't really fit with this management teams MO for picking a side. If one goes, which I think they have to, then it has to be Bressy for me as Broad has more potential to be a match winner and has been superb since the start of the India series last year. As for who to come in, it is a tough one. Both Finn and Onions have their pro sides, but I would perhaps lean towards bringing Onions in at Leeds with a few to Finn playing at Lords, his home ground, in the final Test.

Sorry, but are you seriously suggesting that Bopara provides meaningful insurance?