Two England Greats Retire - I'm Shocked!

England fly-half Charlie Hodgson and hooker Lee Mears have retired from international rugby.

Didn't see that one coming!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18626751

Bloody good news actually.

It means Hodgson will be available for Saracens all season - bar injury of course.

You can say what you want about his international form but he's an excellent club 10.

Smart move by both Hodgson and Mears.

True.

I never understood why Bath didn't try to sign Hodgson, perfect player for the Jeff IMO.

It is always a little sad to see players retire from International (or club) rugby, particularly two who have served their country for so long so well. Neither ever got the respect or gratitude they were due, for whatever reasons they were often singled out by the mindless web posters for unfair criticisms. They were both good enough to win just under and just over 40 caps for their country respectively, get selected for a Lions tour and be picked by a number of top coaches.

I hope they enjoy the twighlight of their club careers.

Sad to see Hodgson never truly fulfil his international potential, but he's a wonderful FH in the Jeff.

Following on from that HERSH, I was surprised that Saints didn't sign Hodgson before they took on Lamb, he would've been ideal for them. He's a touch wasted at Sarries really.

beshocked wrote:It means Hodgson will be available for Saracens all season - bar injury of course.

But will continue to cause Farrell to be played at 13?

You can say what you want about his international form but he's an excellent club 10.

I have never had much issue with his performances at international level. His defence was never as abd as critics said. I think it is a shame that the cult of st jonny meant we saw less of Charlie in white.

I think Saints and Bath did try and sign Hodgson but missed out.

Hersh at least you have a world cup winning fly half instead.

Surely Saints could do better than two mediocre fly halves? Don't know why Saints haven't splashed the salary cap on a top class one.

LondonTiger I hope not. I want both to share the 10 shirt. Especially as the alternative 10 after them is Nils Mordt.

I'd rather have Butch back

You should cheer up now Hersh. You'll have Mears for the whole season. No chance of England trying to poach him.

I know Beshocked, i've thought for a while that Saints are just lacking the real quality at FH. With Ashton going to Sarries, perhaps they should do the sensible thing and invest now!

Absolutely agree chjw131. I suppose the difficulty is whose on the market?

Quite, who indeed?! Dan Parks....

I think on the whole that it's probably the right thing from England's perspective. Having said that what are the options for England now?

Let's take the not improbable scenario that Hartley is banned and Flood is injured for the AI's. We're looking at grasping for something and I hope for our sake it's straws rather than a suspicious looking brown substance.

At Hooker do we go:

2. Webber --- 16. T Youngs

or

2. T Youngs --- 16. J George

Either way as it stands at the moment we're looking at potentially both hookers not starting for their clubs. Or at the very least two hookers who aren't great at throwing at present.

At FH, bearing in mind Bomber chose not to take a fourth FH on tour in the shape of young Burns, do we go:

10. Farrell --- 22. Burns (something which fills me with fear from an attacking perspective)

or

10. Burns --- 22. Ford (again something which fills me with fear, but this time from an experience perspective given that neither has even had a mid-week game for England)

And before someone says it, no I do not want Danny 'Chargedown' Cipriani in there until he can demonstrate his ability to tackle and put the team first. I have seen his displays in a Rebels shirt first hand and let's be kind by saying they were 'mercurial'.

Where has this myth come from that Jamie George can't throw? GeordieFalcon said that as well. I think he's actually quite consistent in that area. The problem for him is the lack of game time.

True chjw131 that's not a great scenario but at least Hodgson and Mears moving on gives youngsters a chance.

Chjw131 wrote: Quite ... I do not want Danny 'Chargedown' Cipriani in there until he can demonstrate his ability to tackle and put the team first.

The thought of this utter tool in the fills me with dread - he will always put himself first. At least Care pulled himself out of that moronic behaviour, whether cipriani can is another matter completely.

Thankfully we have a lot of depth at 10, presently and up & coming, which i suspect is the reason for Hodgeson calling it a day. I would much rather see an untried Ford.

AlastairW true there's a lot of depth at 10 but I wouldn't say it's strength in depth. Not yet anyway - some of the contenders really need to step up.

beshocked wrote:Where has this myth come from that Jamie George can't throw? GeordieFalcon said that as well. I think he's actually quite consistent in that area. The problem for him is the lack of game time.

True chjw131 that's not a great scenario but at least Hodgson and Mears moving on gives youngsters a chance.

Indeed, I retract my statement entirely on George's throwing. I was either intending to put Lindsay in there, or I was thinking of Lindsay's throwing when commenting on George. From a technical perspective J George could be the best hooker available to us!

I agree Al W we have depth, but as beshocked points out a lot of untried depth. Ford I would like to see there once he's demonstrated some defensive improvements and physical presence during the off season.

Burns has a wonderful attacking and passing game, and his tactical kicking is actually superb. For him it's more about game management, something which Ford excels at even at such a young age. Ergo maybe i'd feel more confident in Ford starting than Burns.

No worries Chjw131.

Can't pick J George till he is getting consistent game time though unfortunately. Competing with Brits and Smit is not easy.

I hope Saracens give him more opportunities

I never mentioned georges throwing. I mentioned lindsay and youngs. When I reffered to george I simply said.like youngs he hadnt played.much first team games unlike lindsay who.has been first choice as a result of injury etc.

Im sorry but good riddence to Mears. Should never have been near the England squad.

Lee Mears is very mis-understood, his a great player, on his day.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I never mentioned georges throwing. I mentioned lindsay and youngs. When I reffered to george I simply said.like youngs he hadnt played.much first team games unlike lindsay who.has been first choice as a result of injury etc.

Im sorry but good riddence to Mears. Should never have been near the England squad.

Rumour has it he would scrummage on roller skates. Don't know how true that is. Hodgeson? Meh, he was neither fish nor foul. Had some good games, but was invariably mediocre internationally. Good club ham and egger though.

Not international level Hersh....

Geordie Falcon maybe you have changed your mind now but this is what you said.


Re: England Player Elimination
by GeordieFalcon on Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:18 pm

Ok i agree many of the current tour squad have probably not done their international career future much good...

HOWEVER and its a big one and im going against everything i said in here recently.....

How many of the "young pretenders" or replacements back at home have put their hand up...or are actually ready? How many are their clubs first choice.


1) Mears - I wouldnt have taken him...however which players have been playing?
Youngs - No and cant throw.
Lindsay - Yes a great season...but is even worse at throwing.
Webber injured.
Jaimie George- Barely played and cant throw.
Gray - Probably the only one who hasnt been given a fair chance.
ANy others?

2) Parling - Think his criticism is actually down to the rest of the pack not doing their job. Parling is in their for his lineout and has done that job very well. I still personally want both my second rows to do the tough stuff aswell.
Botha - Yup not good enough.
I would add Palmer to the list aswell - his powers are on the wane.
Replacements:-
Garvey: Good ball carrier, huge guy. Hows his lineout work and hows his work in the tight - tackling and rucking.
Attwood - Form has been up and down...mostly the latter. Not been the player we saw in 2009....
Lawes - Injured most of the season.
Slater / Kitchener - Still developing not quite ready.
Launchbury - Awesome season...big powerful lad...injured on tour.
Others - still developing or like Hudson...missed their chance.

3) Johnson ("A star" for effort and guts but we have 10 better options when fit and prospects) I disagree on Premiership performances he has been one of the best 6's. Worth keeping in the squad to see how he goes. Its a tough place to mnake your debut.
Replacements -
Croft - Injured
Wood - Injured
Fearns - Unfit, ponderous and clumsy compared to the animal that first came to the attention of everyone.
Haskell - Like marmite...you like him or you dont...

4) Strettle - Dont think he's been helped by Sarries tactics. Not good enough for this level at the minute.
Replacments:
Wade - Defensive liability - another Varndell at then mo.
Monye - Suffered for form..but playing well is a big powerful guy.
Benjamin - Fast and powerful...and a Tiger so will improve.
Topsy Ojo - I rate highly...successive England managers dont.
Johnny May - Electric offensively...was SA the place to take a raw diamond?

5) Waldrom - Showed better than Morgan on Saturday but yes i would get rid.
Replacements:
Crane - Will he recover from a serious injury
Fearns - See above
Haskell - Is he a 6 or an 8?
Easter - Retired by lancaster...and hated by everyone..bar a few of us. Would have been perfect for that 2nd test.
Gray - How many games is he playing regularly.
York - Just moved to us maybe one to watch next season.
Guest - Missed the boat

6) Anthony Allen - Possibly missed the boat.
Replacements:
Tuilagi is a 13 not a 12.
Barritt - Injured. How will he go with the more offensive Flood next to him.
Turner Hall - Not quite making the level
James Fitzpatrick - Monsterously powerful...but does he have the skill level for the next level...im not sure. Certainly makes more yards than Barritt.
Powell - Dissapeared
Twelvetrees - hasnt been first choice and been inconsistent as a result.
Farrell - Young, and has no offensive game...which will not improve at Sarries. If he can improve that though he could be good.

Next seasons performances by these pretenders is going to make it HUGE season for the development of England - be it good or bad...




Last edited by GeordieFalcon on Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

GeordieFalcon

Posts: 2705
Join date: 2011-03-31
Location: Newcastle

Ah I guess I did....well I take it back. And too be perfectly honest tom youngs throwing in the midweek games werent horrific either.

Ps I stick by everything else

GeordieFalcon wrote:Not international level Hersh....

Best Lions hooker since Wood.

The wooden bench maybe....

HERSH wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Not international level Hersh....

Best Lions hooker since Wood.

Your medication is wearing off.

nlpnlp wrote:It is always a little sad to see players retire from International (or club) rugby, particularly two who have served their country for so long so well. Neither ever got the respect or gratitude they were due, for whatever reasons they were often singled out by the mindless web posters for unfair criticisms. They were both good enough to win just under and just over 40 caps for their country respectively, get selected for a Lions tour and be picked by a number of top coaches.

I hope they enjoy the twighlight of their club careers.

In Mears' case its because he was sh1t for the last 4 years. I thought long and hard about that. Bear in mind he got dropped after the Lions tour and George Chuter, who has been past it at club level for at leats a year, was still getting in the EPS ahead of him.
Its not mindless abuse to have been dissapointed he was included in the summer test sides. The england chaps mustve have known this was the end of the road for him (itll be their medical data thats shown his retirement age) and all Lancasters banged on about is building a side for the future. All we know about hooker sis that theres noone Lancaster and Rowntree think capable of even playing a test let alone pressuring Hartleys place.

Hodgson, well hopefully this means they will have to shift to a plan A based on a FH who stands flat and offers a running threat. It means should they wish to score a try in next years 6 nations theyll have to come up with alternative plans to him getting lucky bounces form charge downs. This may be beyond Farrells with though, and instead we'll see his son bought back as starter.

Please no. If Farrell starts at 10 in the AI's then I will quite happily nail my colours to the mast by saying we will not get beyond the Group stage of RWC 2015.

He is a talented young sportsman with a great temperament but he is categorically not the answer for England. I know a lot of people feel he needs time to develop his game, and perhaps he will. The problem being that England's game requires someone with the vision and ability in an attacking sense now. Flood is a good player, but for me he struggles to adapt his game. Either Freddie Burns or George Ford need some starting time for England in the AI's.

It is in deed a said day when a player retires from rugby. But in the case of Hodgson, with him now retirng it will a cahnce for Burns, Lamb, maybe even Myler to get a chaqnce to put them selves forward maybe for the 6ns.

Mears, i realy thought that he should of retired after the last 6ns, to be honest.

Doubt Myler will be in line to play for England to be honest. Very good player, but Lancaster picked Clegg, who'd barely played for Quins, ahead of him when he was Saxons coach and he's lost the first choice shirt at Saints.

: I wouldn't have thought English fans should get too excited about this. Mears was okay but Hodgson reminds me of Dan Parks - very good at club level but unable to step up to the plate at international level on a consistent basis.
If I was going to be mischievous, I would say that there plenty of hookers and stand offs in the SH that England can find to replace Mears and Hodgson. But I am not so I won't.

InjuredYetAgain wrote:: I wouldn't have thought English fans should get too excited about this. Mears was okay but Hodgson reminds me of Dan Parks - very good at club level but unable to step up to the plate at international level on a consistent basis.
If I was going to be mischievous, I would say that there plenty of hookers and stand offs in the SH that England can find to replace Mears and Hodgson. But I am not so I won't.

Surely that's why we ARE excited. That they won't be playing international rugby any more. It's a good thing.

Regarding the last bit, only if the Scots don't beat us to them (and I'm sure the see the irony mentioning Parks earlier )

Touché, Hammer. I'll give you hat one.
Up here, we lile to look upon it as players coming home but when England do it, it is dirty, weasly poaching. Boo to England
Oh yes, there is another mighty irony in that one of Parks' last contributions for Scotland was getting charged down by Hodgson at Murrayfield I what was, in effect, the deciding score in the game. Boo!

Calling these guys "great" does nothing for the reputation of true great English players like Wilkinson, Johnson, Underwood, Robinson etc

I won`t comment on Lee Mears because I know little about him,except that i`ve heard he was a tidy player.Charlie Hodgeson along with Olley Barkley was a case of underused talent.When you take into account the fact that they did`nt get an armchair ride that Jonny enjoyed they were very good[not Great] players
that were underused.Even today no one has really been given an extended run at 10 because JW might pop back.Since 2003 JW has never been the same player given a decent run Hodgeson could have been the answer.He was a reasonable defender and a pretty good goalkicker with probably a better all round game than Jonny.Still thats might have beens good luck to him in the rest of his career.

When will Phil Vickery retire?

after Shane Williams who intends to play for England after he has finished playing 2nd row in Japan

emack2 wrote:I won`t comment on Lee Mears because I know little about him,except that i`ve heard he was a tidy player.Charlie Hodgeson along with Olley Barkley was a case of underused talent.When you take into account the fact that they did`nt get an armchair ride that Jonny enjoyed they were very good[not Great] players
that were underused.Even today no one has really been given an extended run at 10 because JW might pop back.Since 2003 JW has never been the same player given a decent run Hodgeson could have been the answer.He was a reasonable defender and a pretty good goalkicker with probably a better all round game than Jonny.Still thats might have beens good luck to him in the rest of his career.

Hodgson really went off the boil for a while and became just and average premiership player. Its only the last 3 years of so he picked up again and forced his way back into the squad. Like Barkley hes never been able to string together enough good games in a row to justify being kept in as a starter, and has obvious limitations to his game.
The Wilko factor though has been an issue. Id say Floods suffered more unjustifiably from Wilkoittis and Johnsons shouldve kept faith in him, and englands system that had been successful, running up to the world cup.
England still cant settle on a 10 without Wilko though, 8 games under Lancaster has seen 3 different starters and now a fourth (probably a kid) will have to be added to the squad with Hodgsons retirement....with Cipriani still lurking like a turd that wont go round the u bend too.

"Id say Floods suffered more unjustifiably from Wilkoittis and Johnsons shouldve kept faith in him, and englands system that had been successful, running up to the world cup."

100% agree - I think if Johnson had stuck with the 2011 6N's team and gameplan he would probably still be in a job regardless of WC results, as there would be a credible basis to argue that he was in the process of developing a good young team. As it was he reverted to his innate conservatism and pragmatism and put the nails in his own coffin by selecting, amongst other things, Wilkinson, Thompson and a gamplan of kicking everything away.

Frankly, I can't understand anyone who doesn't see Flood as England's nailed-on 1st choice. But for a game here and there (Ireland 2011 springs to mind) and his terrible run of luck with injury (seemingly always just when he's building up a head of steam) he has just got better and better in an England shirt to the point where he now looks a very assured operator with a full range of FH skills. He's streets ahead of Farrell in terms of attacking potency, and all other comers in consistency of performance and all-round game. The question should not be "who should be England's 10", it should be "who are we developing as Flood's backup."