England Series Review

England Series Review
http://www.v2journal.com/englands-june-tour-review.html
After a strong Six Nations showing Stuart Lancaster’s new look England side headed to South Africa with a lot of optimism looking to end the long draught and get a win against the Boks.

Three Tests and two invitational matches later and they were sent packing with plenty to ponder having failed to win a single test match, they had at least managed to stave off the series white wash with a 14 all draw in the final test but this was really too little too late after the performances in the other games.
The first two tests were highlights of South African physical dominance and controlled aggression, led by players like Bismark Du Plessis, Willem Alberts, F Steyn and Bryan Habana the men in green smashed the English defensive line in to tatters almost at leisure. England had very little in reply for long periods of these two matches, with the game plan simply kicking the ball away at every opportunity and allowing the green machine to build up a head of steam on the counter through a very poor kick chase.

Only in the final quarter of both of these tests did we see what this England side could produce as they were forced to play the ball through the hands at pace and as players like Ben Youngs and Toby Flood got more involved in the tempo of the game. When they did this England looked threatening and managed get some respectability back on the score boards but both times left themselves too much to do and still the defence was an issue.

In the third test things were mixed up a bit and with the added extra tempo of scrumhalf Danny Care along with more direct physicality of no8 Thomas Waldrom and flanker James Haskell the English forwards were for the first time able to match up to the Springboks (minus Alberts it has to be mentioned) and halt their attacks on the gainline. Although in the end a clever Care try from a tap and go was not enough to stop the game ending a disappointing draw as Owen Farrell’s horribly rushed 40m extra time drop goal skimmed across the grass.

England coaching team analysis

Stuart Lancaster has a lot to change now for the AI’s and it has to start in the coaching team. After that he’ll also be pleased that at least a few new names enhanced their reputations and a few older players helped play their way out of selection for him.

Stuart Lancaster- 6/10
Just like in the 6N’s he made all the right noises in interviews but some odd selection decisions, especially with the bench and at fly half let him down a lot. He was also our defence coach for the tour and leaking 72 points in the three tests and a whopping 57 points in the two mid-week games does not look good. There was almost no organisation in the defensive line when England were on the back foot and their scramble defence was lazy and disorganised compared to the 6N’s.

Graham Rowntree- 5/10
One of the biggest failings of the tour was England’s line out which across all three tests lost key ball on its own throw and never looked like challenging the SA ball. England’s forwards also looked poorly coached to be able to deal with the SA forwards as a collective, this was better for the third test at least so hopefully he’s learnt from the first two. The England scrum was a high point though with it generally faring well and even managing to get the squeeze on later in games.

Mike Catt- 4/10
After the 6N’s England acknowledged that they needed to work on an attacking game plan and Catt was brought in for the tour to provide exactly this. He knew the score and sadly failed to achieve the goals set out. He wasn’t helped by injuries and a 10 who’s only tactic is to kick the ball away, but who selected Farrell and gave him the orders to kick? I would be surprised if Catt is kept on after the tour, surprised and let down.
Summing up Stuart Lancaster is not an international attack or defence coach, he is a very good head coach and manager though. We need Andy Farrell back in to run the defence and we need a better attack and backs coach, I’d like to see a SH coach brought in to balance out the conservative British trio and Aaron Mauger’s name has been mentioned a few times in this respect.

Players that enhanced their reputations
Dan Cole- In all three tests Cole’s side of the scrum looked like a rock and he tamed the Beast across the whole series. We also got to see him get a lot more involved in the defence and his work at ruck time was top draw.

Ben Youngs- Looked dangerous and quick when given any kind of good ball to use, he almost managed to dig England out of a hole in the second test and when partnered with club mate Flood they got the backline fizzing.

Danny Care- Was bizarrely still being punished for the first two tests and came into the third with a point to prove. Which he did commendably by scoring a key try and playing at a faster tempo then we’d usually play at that threatened the SA defence.

Alex Goode- Earned his first ever cap for England starting at 15 and with 20 minutes gone ended up covering at 10 when Farrell had to go off for blood. He looked sharp with ball in hand, solid in defence and seemed comfortable at international level. Foden could struggle to get the 15 shirt back now.

Tom Youngs- He’ll be annoyed that the average Mears was favoured on the bench over him for the test teams. Especially after his impressive physical displays in the two mid-week games. Youngs looks like he could be a real wrecking ball in the years to come and Hartley will be looking over his shoulder by the autumn.

Johnny May- Rushed in as injury cover May got one chance to play against the Northern Barbarians and didn’t disappoint, scoring two lovely tries and looking a constant intelligent threat with the ball in hand. He almost scored the try of the series if it wasn’t for some immense scramble defence from the Barbarians.

Players who didn’t make the grade
Lee Mears- To be honest it’s more an indication of SL’s odd bench policy that Mears was even there in the first place, but the average club hooker really couldn’t make a dent when he came on. I shudder at the thought if an injury had meant we’d had to play him earlier than the 77th min.

Geoff Parling- Parling was meant to be the lineout genius for the test team but sadly that never occurred, we only managed 75% on our throw and never looked to interfere with the SA throws. Add to that he's massively underpowered and near anonymous in the loose.

Mouritz Botha- Parlings lock partner ended playing for the mid weekers and getting benched behind Palmer for the final test. He seems to be lacking a lot of physicality and never managed to compete against the SA forwards in the loose.

Owen Farrell- He’s a prospect for the future definitely but this tour came a couple of seasons too early for the youngster, at the moment his skill set is nowhere near complete enough for international rugby and while you can’t question his defence and kicking from the tee that is not enough against the best teams. Needs to go back to his club and work on his decision making and passing.

David Strettle- Totally anonymous. We won’t be seeing him again for England.

Phil Dowson- As Strettle.

Now the dust has settled

Overall there are things for England to be proud of in this series, we were never hammered by SA which could have happened to a team which let its head drop after early scores. We did fight back and score in every game and we were the only team to not get white washed by the big three. Add to that a number of youngsters put their hands up for future caps and a few questionable players showed that their time wearing the red rose has come to an end.

On the other hand we do still lack an attacking game and the ability to unlock defences, we still make silly mistakes under pressure and give away too many penalties while we seem uncomfortable keeping the ball in hand. We need a defence coach and a more experience backs coach also and to stick with Flood and Youngs and get them bringing their Tigers form to England. But these are all things which we can change and that can be worked on in the autumn.

The future for England looks bright if they carry on developing like they are but this autumn we need results to go along with all the fine talk. A win against one of the big three is a must and please let’s score some team tries.

Defence coach - 2/10 - It was appalling at times.

Dont forget also...it may have been a draw...but had Morne Steyn kicked normally...it would have been a comfortable win for the boks.

We didnt really pose them any huge threats...

And Farrell.... kick, kick, kick....its like watching Jimmy flaimn Gopperth for us Falcons!

Good article. Enjoyed reading it.

Nice review Yappy.

I would give Rowntree 7/10. The scrum was rock solid, and at times a weapon. The lineout was ok, and while we did not threaten the SA jumpers in the first two tests we seemed to have cracked the code a little in the third with a few steals and a crucial steal by Parling just after Hartley went to the bin. The biggest reason I would award extra to Rowntree is because of the effectiveness of the team at securing turnover ball and the re-introduction of a half decent mauling game.

Catt - deserves some credit for the attacking work done in midweek games.

Lancaster is a pretty quick learner. Many of his mistakes have been addressed. I just hope he stops the pre=programmed substitutions. Botha, Dowson and Barritt all appeared on 65 minutes. The forwards were not an improvement.

england have things to work on at lock, we dont know what are best pairing is and there is a lack of proven quality.

The back row is very competitve again not sure who are the first team guys when all fit but there are some good options.

and the midfield is the tough one, there is not enough variation in attack

I guess on the other hand the midfield 10 - 12- 13 were 21 or under....not bad going....

Disappointed to lose the series, and even more so to lose the series without even registering a win. There are lessons to be learnt and a few positives to take from the tour, but we couldn't live with the South African's physicality in the first two tests, and this will need to be addressed.

OK, So England did not win a test match on this tour. But lets face it it was always going to be a tough ask, with most of the England team not even having any international experience at all.

England did how ever win the 2 mid week games. Lancaster will learn from all thes games, he will learn what is best players and will build those players in to the Ais and the following 6ns.

Lets give Lancster some credit here, he as not been in the job long and took England to 2nd place in the 6ns and a 1 draw test match in south africa.


Lets see how things are after the Ais and the 6ns before any one starts calling for his head. shell we.

I just wish he'd put some impact subs on his bench. Hopefully in the AIs we will see the likes of Marler, JJ, Care, Haskell and Goode there though

LT, I can't give Catt anything for the mid week matches as again we showed little to no structure. They were isolated games that really relied upon naturally attacking players playing off the cuff then any real set plays or organisation. And the lack of organisation in the opposition helped immensely.

Rowntree has done well with the forwards in the past but i'm sure he'll be dissapointed with how the forwards went, we never managed to control the games and our pack couldn't knock theirs off it's stride. Yes the mauls were better though, but compared to the 6N's shambles that isn't difficult.

Geordie and CJ, Lancasters use of the bench is dreadful. The selections are pedestrian and he seems to have qualified from coaching for dummies which only states that subs must come on at the same time every match regardless of the game situation.

And after this whole series we're still no closer to finding our first choice locks, backrow, half backs, centres and fb/11.

Robbo, do you think there are any players out there in the prem who could help us cope with SA and by extension NZ in the physicality stakes? Or else is it down to coaching?

Oh come this exaggeration of England having no experience is getting to much.

Yes you had injuries, but it wasnt exactly 22 green horns

I disagree on the last point-

SR- we know it isn't Botha and Parling together
BR- I think the evidence for Wood/Croft, Robshaw, Morgan Haskell on bench is pretty strong
HBs- Youngs Flood, Danny on the bench
Foden on wing please

It was a very very inexperienced squad but then so were the Boks so it's not an excuse

Just like to point out that the midweek teams were not coached by any of Lancaster, Catt or Rowntree, John Callard and Simon Hardy were.

Also CJ, the Boks were inexperienced but I still think that they had around 500 caps compared to our 180-ish, I'm going by memory though so i may be completely wrong!

ChequeredJersey wrote:I disagree on the last point-

SR- we know it isn't Botha and Parling together
BR- I think the evidence for Wood/Croft, Robshaw, Morgan Haskell on bench is pretty strong
HBs- Youngs Flood, Danny on the bench
Foden on wing please

If it's not Botha and Parling together though then who is it? Lawes? Is he physical enough? Palmer? Is he actually good enough? Any of the average prem locks?

Will Wood ever be fit to play and if so will he ever rehit form? If we play Croft will we lose a lot of the physicality and breakdown work? Can Morgan ever manage more then 40 minutes against SH teams?

Youngs and Flood is the way to go, but I worry that Lancaster won't acknowledge this...

Against other teams who wont kick as much should we switch Foden? If he isn't the best option at fb (and I think he has dropped off this season) then should he not be dropped and a proper winger come on at 11?

EDIT-I am semi playing devils advocate here but they're all relevant questions.

belovedfrosties wrote:Just like to point out that the midweek teams were not coached by any of Lancaster, Catt or Rowntree, John Callard and Simon Hardy were.

Also CJ, the Boks were inexperienced but I still think that they had around 500 caps compared to our 180-ish, I'm going by memory though so i may be completely wrong!

I didn't know that Frosties. Who are those two coaches?

Yea the boks at least in the first game had about 150+ in the pack and 200+ in the backs. Our experienced players are Cole, Palmer, Haskell, Care, Flood.

To respond to a few of the points above:

SL left Care on for the full 80, so he doesn't always use pre-set substitutions. Also, England finished the first two tests well which suggests the benches were as weak as some here think they were.

SA away is the ultimate test for a set of forwards. It's hardly surprising it took us a few games to get to grips with them - frankly it would have been an astonishing achievement if we'd be able to match them straight away. The forwards learnt a lot from that tour I'm sure, and the fact they got stronger as the tour went on is very encouraging.

As for first choice locks, backrow, half backs, centres and fb/11.

- The first choice locks are likely to be Lawes and Launchbury going forward, but of course they were both injured.
- We have a pool of decent back row players now and the England break down is in pretty good shape. We have 3 years to find the ideal combination.
- We have two potentially world class SHs. FH is still open, but again SL is a few months into the job, I'm not sure why he has to have identified the 2015 FH and reserve yet. There are a number of possibilities, let's see how they go new season.
- With the centres I think England currently think Tuilagi and JJ have the most potential. I think they are right, particularly with Goode at FB who can join the line and offer the distribtion Tuilagi currently cannot. Can you imagine how good England could become if a FH like Cipriani, Ford or Burns has the choice of Tuilagi on the crash ball or Goode to release the outside backs? Patience is needed here - England aren't going to become a great attacking side over night but they have identified many of the right players to get us there.
- Foden has done well on the wing. Wade and May made a positive impression. Maybe Sharples will have a better season this year. Yarde is coming on, as is Watson. Again, reasons for optimism but it will take a few more games yet before the side starts to feel settled.

Overall a useful tour with lots learnt by coaches and players.

yappysnap wrote:Robbo, do you think there are any players out there in the prem who could help us cope with SA and by extension NZ in the physicality stakes? Or else is it down to coaching?

I think crucially the balance in the back 5 was wrong. We had lightweight locks and a big backrow. Our locks struggled physically, and our line-out struggled because we didn't have the reliable third and fourth jumping options (especially in the third test). Parling and Palmer were too easy to pick off.

Looking at the locks, I'm not sure if any other players would have done any better, but it's certainly worth looking at. Botha now has 8 caps and hasn't really stamped his authority on the International stage. I think he was solid yet unspectacular in the Six Nations, but on this tour he was shown to be lacking slightly. Parling has looked slightly better at International level, but he looked under-powered too.

My selection would be Attwood and Lawes with Parling on the bench and Garvey in the EPS. Attwood can run the line-out, while both Attwood and Lawes have the physical side to their game. I'd be watching Kitchener very closely too, as I think he might be able to offer everything Parling does and more in terms of physicality.

In the back-row stakes I think Jordan Crane might be an option, but obviously he's spent a lot of time injured. I think Morgan and Waldrom both need to get a bit fitter if they're going to regularly mix it up with the Southern Hemisphere giants, the game is just so much faster and they both might struggle to keep up. Fitness is of course an issue because you could be strong and powerful, but if you can't keep up with the play or if you are too tired having kept up with the play then you're going to struggle to make an impact.

I do think coaching is an issue as well, and I think at all levels English players don't clear past the ball at ruck time. Rather than blasting the players clear, we get to the ball and seal off. The first player should clear it out and then if the 9 isn't there to quickly move it then the next forward should just pick it up and carry it forward against a disorganised defence. The sealing off slows the ball and makes it harder for the 9 and the backs, and I think that is a coaching issue (John Wells was dreadful in this respect imo), as I don't think there's any other reason for us not to be able to properly clear out a ruck.

DaveM, I hope you're right.

I worry though that we'll get to the AI's next year and still be saying the same thing. But then that could just be the last 9 years effect on me.

A lot will come down to who is selected in the coaching team

It would be amazing if Farrell didn't come back to run the defence. I wouldn't mind Catt continuing, but would prefer Kirwan to be brought in to look after the attack.

SL is trying out plenty of players, trying to identify the core for the next WC, and has also built a decent team spirit. I'm optimistic.

protea438 wrote:Oh come this exaggeration of England having no experience is getting to much.

Yes you had injuries, but it wasnt exactly 22 green horns

It certainly shouldn't be used as an excuse, but yes the side was pretty green.

If you look at the sides from the first test England had 167 caps to SA's 458. The only English players starting that game with more than 10 caps were Ashton, Foden, Youngs, Hartley & Cole, who were also the only players to have faced a southern hemisphere side before. 8 of the starting 15 players had 5 caps or less.

Which is why I'm surprised people think England should have been able to match the SA forwards from the first game.

My own feelings about the tour are not quite satisfactory, a C- at best.

I'm not being a curmudgeonly old fert, but rather than reach out for positives, I prefer to concentrate on the negatives.

The lock situation is in desperate need of attention, as mentioned above, Attwood needs to be involved to bring in some serious grunt, he had quite a disciplined season for Bath and next to Caldwell put in some serious graft at the coalface. Launchbury is one for the future, but should get some game time in the AIs, Garvey is in the mix as is Kitchener.

Lawes was missed and Croft is a player for some Test matches but not others, I don't think he would have made a massive difference in SA.

It's not like there isn't promise there, but these players need to be tested and given experience, there's no other way to find out if they're up to it.

The centre situation is developing options, Tuilagi picks himself, but has to be implemented in a better manner than on this tour, JJ is worth more time, Barritt has strengths in key areas and could be used like Croft - horses for courses, Allen should be given opportunities based on his midweek performances, BUT; none of the above will amount to a hill of beans unless Youngs and Flood are distributing.

I like Farrell, and he has a massive future, but right now he has shown that his thinking under pressure needs work.

Morgan and Waldrom have fuel issues, I'd really like to see Fearns in the 8 jersey for Bath this coming season, he made a brief cameo appearance in the second Barbarians game, but fell off sharply in the second half due to a total lack of match fitness, he was playing 7 but doesn't have the continuity element to his game to be a go-forward linkman. His physicality is beyond question, and he can punch some pretty big holes for others to exploit.

The back three situation is healthy, but Ashton is being over-indulged based on his current form, and Strettle is beyond redemption. May, Sharples, and Wade need some game time and I don't see why they shouldn't get some action in the Autumn.

At times England's defending was shambolic, and I expect to see Farrell return to the set-up, an attack coach is also a must, I could contemplate Catt staying as backs coach due to his playing experience in every position, but there have to be top class attack coaches out there who would love the opportunity of working with some of this young, raw talent.

Overall, could and SHOULD do better in the Autumn.

I don't think that if we'd taken Attwood and Garvey, and even started both in the 1st Test, we would suddenly have been teaching the SA second rows (and the pack in general) a lesson. These are two inexperienced second rows, one of who wasn't a regular in the second row for his club (being often used at 6), and the other had a pretty uninspiring season.

They have potential, but neither of them will ever have experienced anything like the SA side at the start of the second half of the First Test, or the first half of the Second Test. Now, maybe they should have gone just for the learning experience, but they were not going to go and make a mess of the SA pack, in SA, from a standing start.

mbernz wrote:

protea438 wrote:Oh come this exaggeration of England having no experience is getting to much.

Yes you had injuries, but it wasnt exactly 22 green horns

It certainly shouldn't be used as an excuse, but yes the side was pretty green.

If you look at the sides from the first test England had 167 caps to SA's 458. The only English players starting that game with more than 10 caps were Ashton, Foden, Youngs, Hartley & Cole, who were also the only players to have faced a southern hemisphere side before. 8 of the starting 15 players had 5 caps or less.

Just for info.

Prior to the series our pack experience.

Beast has 32 caps
Bismarck has 42 caps
Jannie has 30 caps
Eben had 0 caps
Juandre had 0 caps
Marcell had 0 caps
Willem had 11 caps
Spies had 47 caps

So 4 players with experience and 1 with a handful of caps with three rookies.

Other players that came in off the bench and in the third test, Potgieter 0 caps, Oosthuizen 0 caps, Kruger 2 caps, Daniel 8 caps.

Not all that experienced.

162 caps in the pack, vs 167 for the entire England side, for a test series in SA. If the teams were of equal ability I'd still expect that difference to often be decisive.

Dave is it possible for you to supply the caps of your forwards?

Reason why I ask is to compare apples with apples, our backline has quite a bit of experience, only Lambie and Hougaard has around ten caps or so, the other all have plenty.

I just want to personally commend the English supporters for not throwing the "blame the referee" card during this series.

No, but I'll try to give an idea. Cole now has plenty of experience, as does Hartley. Marler debuted, Botha has a handful of caps, Parling either none or a couple, Robshaw 5, Morgan 3 starts, Johnson debuted.

And this matters. If you want to beat an SA side your forwards need to know what it's going to be like and what they need to do when the inevitable pressure comes on. In 2010 England were at the high point of the MJ era having deservedly beaten Australia and faced a SA side that was struggling. What happened was brutal, a real lesson for English forwards, but look at the forwards for England that day:

Sheridan, Hartley, Cole, Lawes, Palmer, Croft, Moody, Easter

There was little knowledge of that carried into this series. England matched SA in the final test, and I expect we'll be competitive in the autumn as knowledge will be carried over this time.

Well then the experience was vital, you won't easily find another team with this intensity.

Yeah, noticed that!

Whats disappointing is that the flaws people were overlooking in some of the young players (Farrell and Morgan) who were heroes of the 6 nations were really exposed in these games.
Hartley and Ashton are still looking out of sorts.
The center partnership is still a problem, and we have seen that Farrell snr wasnt solely responsible for englands inability to get anything from the wide backs.

On the positive side Lancaster does seem to have realised that a half back pairing who are capable of running the ball is useful, Youngs/Care with Flood must be the preferred partnership if they can be fit and out of jail for the AIs.

The back row and second row is massively open for someone to come in and justify a regular place.

I agree some of the less experienced players probably did learn some hard lessons about what it really takes to play test rugby, perhaps some of the fans too.

Like I said biltong, I don't want it to be an excuse, it's not in my eyes, the difference for me was in the nature of the players, I was just clarifying the point of the poster I replied to.

The caps for our starting pack at durban were:

Marler 0
Hartley 39
Cole 28
Botha 6
Parling 5
Johnson 0
Robshaw 6
Morgan 5

Mberns, don't worry mate, I didn't think you were using it as an excuse.

I think the important thing that we can learn from this is the SA rookies Etzebeth, Coetzee, Juandre Kruger and Coenie Oosthuizen proved they belong, Potgieter an Strauss didn't convince. From an English perspective, in my view at least Botha doesn't, perhaps you guys may add one or two to the list.

The question is whether they can live again with this type of intensity, the wave upon wave of attack for 80 mins.

Its all good knowing its going to happen, its whether you can find a way to stop it.

If all goes well SA may field the biggest pack of forwards in history if I'm not mistaken... throw in Coenie, Bekker & Schalk in to replace Beast, Kruger & Coetzee and the pack somehow improves its mobility but also adds another 30-40kg to the side.

Think Ellis Park was intense... add Schalk in the mix and he'll crank the intensity to 11.

Biltong, I think Alberts is a better 8 than Spies by a country mile, isn't there anyone who can take Alberts place to allow him to replace Spies?

Parling, Botha, Hartley and Morgan have all looked out of place in SA, but there are options to repplace all of them. It's up to SL to start experimenting a little with the pack.

At the moment i would say the following is set.

1
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4
5
6
7 Robshaw
8

9
10
11
12
13 Tuilagi (or at 12)
14 Ashton
15 Foden (or at wing)

And even Hartleys position is under evaluation...now to me THATS a major problem....

PJHolybloke wrote:Biltong, I think Alberts is a better 8 than Spies by a country mile, isn't there anyone who can take Alberts place to allow him to replace Spies?

Parling, Botha, Hartley and Morgan have all looked out of place in SA, but there are options to repplace all of them. It's up to SL to start experimenting a little with the pack.

pJ if Juan Smith is back yes.

GeordieFalcon wrote:At the moment i would say the following is set.

1
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4
5
6
7 Robshaw
8

9
10
11
12
13 Tuilagi (or at 12)
14 Ashton
15 Foden (or at wing)

And even Hartleys position is under evaluation...now to me THATS a major problem....

i liked Brown at fullback to be honest, and Care and Youngs are good.

biltongbek wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:Biltong, I think Alberts is a better 8 than Spies by a country mile, isn't there anyone who can take Alberts place to allow him to replace Spies?

Parling, Botha, Hartley and Morgan have all looked out of place in SA, but there are options to repplace all of them. It's up to SL to start experimenting a little with the pack.

pJ if Juan Smith is back yes.

Oh yeah.

I have the canvas, I have the paint, as yet I haven't had the time...

Yeah but neither Care nor Youngs have nailed that shirt,.

For Fb i thought Goode was excellent yesterday...so we could even say that the full back spot is not cemented in...

This is a problem. Look at the strong teams and you can run off the at least 10-12 players who are set in stone in that position...and this creates familiarity etc...

PJHolybloke wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:Biltong, I think Alberts is a better 8 than Spies by a country mile, isn't there anyone who can take Alberts place to allow him to replace Spies?

Parling, Botha, Hartley and Morgan have all looked out of place in SA, but there are options to repplace all of them. It's up to SL to start experimenting a little with the pack.

pJ if Juan Smith is back yes.

Oh yeah.

I have the canvas, I have the paint, as yet I haven't had the time...

PJ did you ever get my email?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah but neither Care nor Youngs have nailed that shirt,.

For Fb i thought Goode was excellent yesterday...so we could even say that the full back spot is not cemented in...

This is a problem. Look at the strong teams and you can run off the at least 10-12 players who are set in stone in that position...and this creates familiarity etc...

Yeah but Geordie having two players in the same position who haven't nailed the shirt is a good thing, it means there is depth.

It does...your correct it creates competition and thats what we need...but we also need stability, familiarity.

The Boks are rebuilding aswell...but generally the 3 SH teams...know exactly what their team mates are going to do...because they are settled....

Its a fine balance....and the SH teams always get it right.

GeordieFalcon wrote:At the moment i would say the following is set.

1
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4
5
6
7 Robshaw
8

9
10
11
12
13 Tuilagi (or at 12)
14 Ashton
15 Foden (or at wing)

And even Hartleys position is under evaluation...now to me THATS a major problem....

Id agree with Cole, Tuilagi and Foden. Hartley too, Lancaster backed him as capatin and frankly theres noone demanding hes removed yet. Youngs hasnt even started a jeff game yet. Well Flood too, nothing in the last game suggested Farrell would replace him and it would take something quite remarkable for players who couldnt even make the summer squad to displace both. SH is a straight choice between Youngs and Care
Ashton has been sh1t under Lancaster, and to be fair wasnt much better in the world cup/Robshaw only got in the team (and the captaincy) because of woods injury and haskells unavailability. He was pretty woeful in the last game, and Lancaster always made it clear his captaincy was provisional.
Of course we would expect the majority of the starting AI squads to match the summer tour one (injury allowing) but theres a lot of question marks in the side no question

No mate, we haven't got it right for the last 4 years.

You;ve done better than us....

Not good enough mate.