Club before country or country before club - a simple question

I have no doubt. Have you?

In most countries club serves province/region/franchise which serves country.

I think of both evenly (ish). However i look out for/pay more attention to local lads playing in the Scarlets, then i pay more attention to Scarlets playing for Wales, and then I pay more attention to Welsh lads in the Lions.

Country though I understand the argument in favour of club and actually probably get more upset/elated watching my club play. Partially as I can sometimes afford to watch them live

I put country ahead of club, but if I was asked right now to Play for Leinster or Ireland I would pick Leinster. I've never been as happy as the day Ireland won the slam but the team is currently a shambles. Despite that though I still prefer seeing Ireland win the big games.

sean.c wrote:I put country ahead of club, but if I was asked right now to Play for Leinster or Ireland I would pick Leinster. I've never been as happy as the day Ireland won the slam but the team is currently a shambles. Despite that though I still prefer seeing Ireland win the big games.

Thats only beacuse Leinster ALWAYS win the big games so its not as much of a shock!

Simply put when my province wins it makes me happier than when Ireland win.

When my province loses it makes me more upset than when Ireland lose.

Test rugby should be the pinnacle of rugby sport but I enjoy it less than provincial/club rugby.

For me I support them both equally. I get ridiculously upset when either team underperforms and loses. And I get ridiculously elated when either team plays really well and wins.

I've thought about it and there's no difference between how I feel about Leinster and Ireland. I just wish Ireland were playing better.

Currently, I favour Ulster. I find it hard to have much interest in the current Irish team.

It's tough as although, I'd rather run out through the crowd wearing the green, red and white at Welford Rd than wearing the red rose at HQ, I would hate to see a football style view on internationals where the players don't give a toss. International rugby is still the pinical of the sport and should be what players aim for, it should not be the driving force behind the club structure though. Clubs should be looking to build up sustainable winning teams and not merely cater for the whims of whomever is coaching England.

formerly known as Sam wrote:It's tough as although, I'd rather run out through the crowd wearing the green, red and white at Welford Rd than wearing the red rose at HQ, I would hate to see a football style view on internationals where the players don't give a toss. International rugby is still the pinical of the sport and should be what players aim for, it should not be the driving force behind the club structure though. Clubs should be looking to build up sustainable winning teams and not merely cater for the whims of whomever is coaching England.

Is an interesting point Sam.

The minute Sky money poured into the elite level of the footy equivalent of the Jeff, what has happened to the plentiful supply of domestic talent?

Think on.

Ireland first, Leinster second, always.

The minute Sky money poured into the elite level of the footy equivalent of the Jeff, what has happened to the plentiful supply of domestic talent?

Since when is it sustainable to build a team around high paid foreign players with no loyalty to the club? This is where football teams get it wrong, teams that distance themselves from the local talent in favour of a bunch of mercenaries are committing PR suicide unless they habitually win silverware. Fans follow teams they can empathise or who bring success. The teams that did the best out of the period where Sky's financial investment allowed English clubs to outbid most others were Tigers and Wasps, both clubs kept their ethos and had strong links to their past with a host of local and English talent mixed in with some top draw international talent where required.

Country everytime.

Our Provinces are there to build for the ultimate showdown, us vs the All Blacks

Biltong,

You are one of the most passionate fans about their country on this forum.

Stag, there is no sport as beautiful as rugby, I love it all, the big tackles, the big runs, the offloads, rucks, lineouts, etc.

The Springbok may not be loved everywhere, but it has to be respected.

Our challenges we have faced over the past 16 years due to politics etc, have often frustrated the living dayloights out of me, but you show me another country that has been abe to win 2 world cups, three Tri Nation trophies and still remain in the top three nations inspite of all thise challenges.

You can't but be proud.

biltongbek wrote:Country everytime.

Our Provinces are there to build for the ultimate showdown, us vs the All Blacks

And we do the same in reverse.

Which is why All Blacks vs Springboks is the ultimate rugby rivalry. Pure rugby (none of the historic baggage Love sacks that comes into play up North), at it's pinnacle.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Country everytime.

Our Provinces are there to build for the ultimate showdown, us vs the All Blacks

And we do the same in reverse.

Which is why All Blacks vs Springboks is the ultimate rugby rivalry. Pure rugby (none of the historic baggage Love sacks that comes into play up North), at it's pinnacle.

Amen to that.

We may be critical of our players and coaches and teams at times, but we pride ourselves not only on winning but wanting to win playing well, whether we have different styles, gameplans or methods, it is all about the physical challenge to be top of the pile.

To me the primary competition is the club competition. Internationals simply take the best players from the clubs to pit them against each other as an extra.

That's my view anyway. And I do enjoy international rugby but I don't want my domestic setup to be primarily aimed at International rugby

I voted for country over club. But that is not a strong vote as I see no reason why club and country should not be 100% compatable.

country all day- i dont even support a club!!

whats with the abstain option lol!! any point, its just gonna dilute possible choices

International level may be what everyone now aspires to, but it was club rugby that came first and held prevalence for so long. Without the bedrock of the local and professional club scene everything else withers. It is of the most vital importance.

very true john.

I'd rather see rugby thrive at club level; grassroots and professionally. It's the daily bread of the rugby players and supporters who make the game what it is.

The eye is obviously always drawn to the pinnacle of the sport, but playing week in week out with friends, watching your big club with friends & family throughout the season, and assisting with the development of the next generation on those cold winter evening pitches is what the game is really about and inspires so many.

Ireland first, Ulster second.........and make no mistake I my province more than I can put into words .

I am no club fan- but club fans are the true fans- i fully admit that. not saying that club fans arnt international fans at the same time mind!

Id love to see a club league that was massive in the media and stuff , with international players- now i know you lot hate that idea- but that is the only way the game will become truely global in my eyes..

For me there would be no prouder moment than representing Scotland. Clubs come and go but your nation and the fans stay the same.

got to thank the hardcore club fans- otherwise there would be no game of rugby- it would cess to exist..

I am happy supporting england in every game tho- However this thought process makes me feel abit guilty

i am sure i will get over it lol.

bring on the SA tests

I believe it should be a symbiotic realatioship with each entity benefitting the other by working together,
The EPS system goes some way to help this.
Club rugby is what the game is all about though it is the heart & soul of what makes the game special & should have a togetherness you rarely find in other sports.

A few years ago it would have been Ireland first. That being said should we lift the HEC I have no doubt that it would mean much more to me than the grand slam.

It comes from following your province week in week out and shelling out a small fortune following them I think. I get wildly upset during Ireland games at the minute but I have to agree with stag here

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Currently, I favour Ulster. I find it hard to have much interest in the current Irish team.

You see thats how I feel, I am more excited about Ulster right now but thats because they are on an upward curve whereas Ireland...well aren't.

Ireland would still be the prority to me though,especially the RWC, but I'm pretty frustrated and disillusioned with the National set up right now.

I certainly wouldn't swap an Ireland GS for anything, but then I wouldn't swap an Ulster HEC win either.

I wish you would change the vote to include an option of "Both equally".

Even then I am not sure what way to vote.

I love watching both and I am a wee bit worried that my answer would be based on which was enjoying the most success at the time. Is that a good thing? Doesn't feel right somehow.



I suppose if there was ever an Ulster v Ireland fixture, I would definately cheer for Ulster!

So I guess that tells me something. I'm just not sure what!

I think if you ask a player whether he wants to go play for his country he would say yes.

If you ask a player would he prefer to play a test against Japan or play in the final of the domestic comp, he'll tell you he wants to play in the final.

The same applies for us.

Are you choosing to watch the cup final where your team has made the final live or do you watch your country play against a 2nd tier team, in most cases you would record the test and watch the final live.


but if it is just a normal club game, vs a test betwen to top ranked nations you would pick the test.

Of course club and grassroots rugby is important, but the ultimate is the tests, there where you country's best pit themselves against another country's best.

For me the intensity of club games is easily magnified when countries clash. You can put aside any and all provincial/regional rivalries, friendly or otherwise, and join voices behind your nation. And when your country does well the feeling simply cannot be matched. Having a taste of being a top side at the WC is hard to describe, it made me feel dizzy, literally like I was stuck in a dream. I expect any sides that have won the thing feel this and then some.

I was watching Atletico win the UEFA trophy last night with friends. For them, club and country are two separate things. I asked them if Spain gets ejected early in the EuroCup this year will the UEFA victory sweeten the disappointment of their national team´s failure. To them it was like asking what would they think if Nadal doesn't win the French Open. Unfortunate but nothing related to their club team's exploits.

So I got an insight into that way of thinking because in NZ everything is geared towards the national team. If the Crusaders win and the sevens team win then that's fine with me but the thing that matters is test rugby.

I agree Knowsit, there is a big difference when the whole country is behind something. I thought the reaction of the 2008 Eurocup was crazy here until the World Cup success for Spain came along. Club success is much more localised and fleeting.

Maybe people who put club before country live in a country where they don't usually perform well against other national sides. I understand that way of thinking because it's much easier to celebrate and focus on successes rather than failures. But I think if you asked any Australian, SAn or Kiwi supporter if they'd trade hypothetically speaking their own club's success for the national team's success , all of them would.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I thought the reaction of the 2008 Eurocup was crazy here until the World Cup success for Spain came along. Club success is much more localised and fleeting.

Are you in Madrid Kia? I would have thought the Catalans and Basques etc. would put club above country every time. Because their "national" identity is focused through the football clubs of Barcelona and Bilbao. In fact, I think Bilbao will only sign Baque players. I've never seen a group of players more overcome by grief than after Bilbao's defeat yesterday. In Madrid the "Spanish" identity is much stronger.

I'd say in Wales it seems to be country before club. You only have to look at the amount of players going abroad to see that. I guess that's the way professional sport is going though. Still, no amount of money will ever replace the kudos for them playing in a Welsh jersey though. Personally, I'd say country over region, but each to their own. Players do what's best for themselves I guess.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I was watching Atletico win the UEFA trophy last night with friends. For them, club and country are two separate things. I asked them if Spain gets ejected early in the EuroCup this year will the UEFA victory sweeten the disappointment of their national team´s failure. To them it was like asking what would they think if Nadal doesn't win the French Open. Unfortunate but nothing related to their club team's exploits.

So I got an insight into that way of thinking because in NZ everything is geared towards the national team. If the Crusaders win and the sevens team win then that's fine with me but the thing that matters is test rugby.

I agree Knowsit, there is a big difference when the whole country is behind something. I thought the reaction of the 2008 Eurocup was crazy here until the World Cup success for Spain came along. Club success is much more localised and fleeting.

Maybe people who put club before country live in a country where they don't usually perform well against other national sides. I understand that way of thinking because it's much easier to celebrate and focus on successes rather than failures. But I think if you asked any Australian, SAn or Kiwi supporter if they'd trade hypothetically speaking their own club's success for the national team's success , all of them would.

I did know a guy once who was so focused on Canterbury that he'd have traded a 3N for a Super title. Mind you we'd nicknamed him "nutter" and "plonker" long before that opinion emerged . For example when playing pool he'd turn down a relatively easy pot if he could snooker you instead.

Portnoy
When you put up this poll you appear to have forgotten about Provinces or States.

Varies for me, at the moment I find the current Gloucester side more exciting and engaging than England. This changes though. It often depends on who is having more success I suppose, as shallow as this is.

I think international selection, especially your club's involvement with the country, is a factor too. Nothing frustrates me more than watching a team who I feel does not fairly represent the quality available. Clubs have a lot less players to chose from, so they obviously pick the best available guys whenever it is feasible to do so. I find international selection in England has been awful over the last few years, which means I don't support as much as I would if all the best players were playing. The last time England had their best possible XV on the pitch was probably 2003. The media/club/union politics turns me off the international side sometimes too.

If it was 'who would you rather play for?' though, it'd be England.

Yes that's right Feckless on all counts. Later this month is the King's Cup between Athletic and Barcelona, the most separatist, or nacionalista as they say here, provinces (technically autonomous communities) in Spain. Normally they don't even pay attention to the anthem (though that is made not so obvious by the fact it doesn't have lyrics). But even in the World Cup there were Spanish flags flying in the Basque Country and Catalonia which was unthinkable. Indeed even in places that support the Republic, flag waving was seen as a throwback to the Franco era. It took the World Cup victory to change this mentality.

You know Kiwi that I'm a one-eyed Catab but that sort of talk is indeed crazy. The nickname was an apt one!

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:...
You know Kiwi that I'm a one-eyed Catab but that sort of talk is indeed crazy. The nickname was an apt one!

I haven't seen the guy in nearly 10 years (we were classmates at Uni and worked at the same company for a few years after), but I suspect right now he's criticising the Tea Party in the US for being insufficiently right wing and fundamentalist, and getting ready to criticise Steve Hansen if any Crusaders get injured on ABs duty ...

He sounds like the guy in the Kiwi flick Stickmen who wore a pink shirt just to provoke comments so he channel his short man syndrome rage. Is he on the short side by chance?

The more I think about it, the further down England come in my priorities.

Although I voted club, that probably does not mean Leicester, though as a fan they rank higher than England in my affections.

It is actually the junior clubs, the millions who turn up every Saturday, the reduced number who make it to midweek training, the people who man the bar, wash kit etc etc. The people who you get drunk with, go on tour with. The young pups who want to be in the firsts, the old guys who still turn up in their 60s to play.

Rugby is about all of them, and so many more.

Sadly the IRB cares not one jot for them.

My observe is when country is winning and club is losing fan says "country before club" and also when country losing and club winning fan says "club before country", when both winning then rugby is best sport on the world, and when both losing fan watching golf. Unless welsh then they typing novel about the coach.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:...
You know Kiwi that I'm a one-eyed Catab but that sort of talk is indeed crazy. The nickname was an apt one!

I haven't seen the guy in nearly 10 years (we were classmates at Uni and worked at the same company for a few years after), but I suspect right now he's criticising the Tea Party in the US for being insufficiently right wing and fundamentalist, and getting ready to criticise Steve Hansen if any Crusaders get injured on ABs duty ...

You have to feel for a guy like that, most likely he is in therapy now.

To answer this I've got to ask myself this; Which would make me happier Wales winning the best competition in which they're entered (The World Cup), or, the Ospreys winning the biggest competition in which they're they're entered (The Heineken Cup)?

It's Wales so, so, so easily.

Yun44 wrote:To answer this I've got to ask myself this; Which would make me happier Wales winning the best competition in which they're entered (The World Cup), or, the Ospreys winning the biggest competition in which they're they're entered (The Heineken Cup)?

It's Wales so, so, so easily.

So. Ospreys then I just make a small joke.

Cymru am byth. Then the Dragons. But then I'd cheer on Dragon's players wihin the Welsh side and look out for Welsh players within the Lions.

If there weren't these stupid regions then probably club before country