Prospects For Argentina In The Rugby Championship

First topic message reminder :

This year, Argentina will finally make their debut in an annual rugby tournament, entering the expanded Tri-Nations which shall now be known as The Rugby Championship.

So how will Argentina fare in their first tournament? With their players plying their trade in Europe in the main, they will be at the end of a long season which began with a World Cup in New Zealand in September and will finish on the 16th October a year later. Add into this, they will be playing against the three best teams in the world and expectations are immediately low.

What should they aim for? In my opinion, they should be looking at 2 home wins as a minimum. Argentina will be a tough place to travel to and they should use that to their advantage especially as they fought against the SANZAR axis and have selected all three of their games to be outside Buenos Aires. Of their away games, Australia might be the best chance of an away victory, as this will be Australia's first ever game in Gold Coast, so might be a little unsettled in those surroundings but it will still be a tough ask.

Here are all the fixtures:

Round 1 v South Africa, Newlands, Cape Town

Round 2 v South Africa, Estadio Malvinas Argentinas, Mendoza

Round 3 v New Zealand, Westpac Stadium, Wellington

Round 4 v Australia, Skilled Park, Gold Coast

Round 5 v New Zealand, Estadio Ciudad de La Plata, La Plata

Round 6 v Australia, Estadio Gigante de Arroyito, Rosario


I think that no matter what pack they select, they will prove nuggety opposition and cause trouble for whoever they encounter but it is the backline which will determine how well they do. Juan Martin Hernandez has had a good run without injury recently and has been doing well for Racing Metro at pivot. His team mate at Racing, Juan Imhoff, has been one of the finds of the season after a good World Cup on the wing. Lucas Amorisino will provide a dangerous attacking option from deep, while they possess other good players in the form of Martin Rodriguez and Santiago Fernandez. Where they are weak is at outside centre.

So what are your thoughts and hopes for Los Pumas in the upcoming Championship?

Estadio Malvinas Argentinas translates as (The) Argentinian Falklands Stadium doesn't it?

It's a bit controversial to invite a Commonwealth country there imo.

timhen wrote:Argentina v SANZAR for the last decade or so:

Australia (14) 24 - 8 (3) Argentina 2003
Argentina (6) 6 - 17 (14) Australia 2002
Australia (21) 32 - 25 (17) Argentina 2000
Australia (15) 53 - 6 (3) Argentina 2000
Argentina (15) 18 - 16 (13) Australia 1997
Argentina (6) 15 - 23 (11) Australia 1997

South Africa (14) 63 - 9 (9) Argentina 2008
Argentina (6) 13 - 37 (24) South Africa 2007
Argentina (20) 23 - 34 (16) South Africa 2005
Argentina (7) 7 - 39 (36) South Africa 2004
South Africa (13) 26 - 25 (15) Argentina 2003
South Africa (17) 49 - 29 (13) Argentina 2002
Argentina (16) 33 - 37 (24) South Africa 2000

New Zealand (12) 33 - 10 (7) Argentina 2011
Argentina (16) 19 - 25 (15) New Zealand 2006
New Zealand (24) 41 - 7 (7) Argentina 2004
Argentina (10) 20 - 24 (8) New Zealand 2001
New Zealand (31) 67 - 19 (14) Argentina 2001

Yeah given Argentina are at a pretty low ebb too recently, struggling to beat the likes of scotland even, i dont know where this theory that they should be winning a few games comes from.


As for players employability yes the european leagues are already reducing their interest in argentinian players because of this.

Portnoy wrote:Estadio Malvinas Argentinas translates as (The) Argentinian Falklands Stadium doesn't it?

It's a bit controversial to invite a Commonwealth country there imo.

Oh, but it is not actually in the Falklands though, anyway I do not think any British Isle nation would play there anyway, unless they were going to play a remembrance game for the lost lives of the conflict. I always remember the first game of the 1999 world cup in Cardiff, we played Argentina and we had the British army parasailing down the inside of the stadium onto the pitch and all soldiers on the pitch celebrating, which I though was a bit inappropriate.

LordDowlais wrote:

Portnoy wrote:Estadio Malvinas Argentinas translates as (The) Argentinian Falklands Stadium doesn't it?

It's a bit controversial to invite a Commonwealth country there imo.

Oh, but it is not actually in the Falklands though, anyway I do not think any British Isle nation would play there anyway, unless they were going to play a remembrance game for the lost lives of the conflict. I always remember the first game of the 1999 world cup in Cardiff, we played Argentina and we had the British army parasailing down the inside of the stadium onto the pitch and all soldiers on the pitch celebrating, which I though was a bit inappropriate.

According to the font of truth that is Wikipedia -

[quote]The stadium used to be named Ciudad de Mendoza ("City of Mendoza"), but was later renamed after the events of the Falklands War of 1982. The new name reflects Argentina's claims of sovereignty over the Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas in Spanish), and could be translated as "Argentine Falklands Stadium"."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estadio_Malvinas_Argentinas

England, Wales and Scotland have played in the Argentine. But not (I think at the re-named ground).

Scotland were I think were the last to play there in their successful tour of ~2010. Maybe someone could confirm whether they played at a ground 'Estadio Malvinas Argentinas'.

I smell oil and (just like Maggie Thacther 30 years ago) a desperate political gamble by a failing government.

i am sure any game there would be fine- they need to get over it- anyway i am sure trhe whole situ will be resolved- they dont even want the islands just the oil around them- and an agreement will happen soon enough that we split it 50/50

Well they've pretty much burned their bridges with all their allies, local or European. They're a nothing regime throwing a last desperate hail mary. Kind of feel sorry for them really.

I think we can ignore the political environment in regards to these matches, it won't play a role.

This is about rugby.

biltongbek wrote:I think we can ignore the political environment in regards to these matches, it won't play a role.

This is about rugby.

A significant input from a Saffer.

The years of isolation Biltong - good or bad?

Portnoy, irrespective of our exclusion which in this case has even less to the with venues for Test mtaches in the rugby championship than politics.

The point is, if there was any chance of an unpleasant situation for the Rugby championship to be hosted in argentina, Australia would be the first to set up camp and refuse to go, as they have done in the past with their cricket team.

Is Auz that PC or is it just the PC have all the control

I am really struggling with your posts bendan

not trying to have a pop- my posts can be tough to work out-But just saying like!!

And the rugby?

What do you guys think? Can the argues get a win in one or two home games? There is huge support for the Pumas that is rarely seen abroad.

On a side note those Argentinian lady supporters are easily a match for the very finest the competition have to offer.

Remember the RWC 2007?

Nobody even considered them to feature, and what did they do, beat France twice and topped their group.

These guys play on passion, they thrive on passion, and they run through you whilst crying, they have been waiting for this opportunity for a long time, 5 years in the making since 2007, they might not win ne, but they sure as hell are going to make it very tough for all of us.

biltongbek wrote:Remember the RWC 2007?

Nobody even considered them to feature, and what did they do, beat France twice and topped their group.

These guys play on passion, they thrive on passion, and they run through you whilst crying, they have been waiting for this opportunity for a long time, 5 years in the making since 2007, they might not win ne, but they sure as hell are going to make it very tough for all of us.

Actually in Ireland most of were pretty worries about being in a group with Argentina having struggled against them in previous world cups. They also went into that WC with a very good record v France so it wasn't a shock that they got out of their group and did well. Then they beat Scotland I think no big shock really.

biltongbek wrote:Remember the RWC 2007?

Nobody even considered them to feature, and what did they do, beat France twice and topped their group.

These guys play on passion, they thrive on passion, and they run through you whilst crying, they have been waiting for this opportunity for a long time, 5 years in the making since 2007, they might not win ne, but they sure as hell are going to make it very tough for all of us.

And how many tri nations sides did they beat that year?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Remember the RWC 2007?

Nobody even considered them to feature, and what did they do, beat France twice and topped their group.

These guys play on passion, they thrive on passion, and they run through you whilst crying, they have been waiting for this opportunity for a long time, 5 years in the making since 2007, they might not win ne, but they sure as hell are going to make it very tough for all of us.

And how many tri nations sides did they beat that year?

They only played us, so none, but that is not the point, as I said they will most likely win no games, but will make it difficult for us.

The Argies always seem to have at least one massive game in them for an upset, ala recent WCs. It'll be a game of Russian roulette, who's the unlucky team out of the 3 others to pull that trigger and have their brains blown out. Sure as heck hope it isn't the ABs. Reckon they'll make a far better go of it than italy has in the 6Ns. They're still pretty poor after all these years, to be fair.

Italy have beaten all six nations teams bar Ireland and England in the 6 nations. They aren't great but the did avoid the wooden spoon.

they have beaten ireland tho.

3 times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

never beaten england

I remember when England went to Argentina when Carling and co were playing... they didn't get a very nice reception

well got to remeber that argentina are a country that celberates junkie cheats and even promote them to maange there countries team- it would be like us picking a cross between gazza and nick lesson to manage england

they have a different outlook on the world than we do!

Sorry, perhaps a bit hard on Italy as they have improved. Took a while, but I guess they started from a lower standard than the Argies will. Can't believe Italy has beaten all 6N teams bar England, that's not a bad effort. Wins are still pretty rare though arent they?

What's the Argies discipline like these days? Do they pull out any of the underhand stuff? Could unsettle the ABs and Oz teams if they did try it on. They'd probably learn not to as they'd get caned by refs/sanza, but could be a cunning ploy to get an edge and a win if they got away with it.

i dont think they have improved at all, they record in actual fact seems to be worse than it was in the 90's!!

I've seen the Pumas play Wales in Puerto Madryn in 2006 a very very tough venue.

I don't fancy anyone's chances against Los pumas at home in Argentina

Argentina have really missed the boat on joining a major international tournament. They should have done it a few years ago before their better players retired/got old.

There was a time in the 90's when Ireland couldn't beat Italy. They were better then than they are now.

maestegmafia wrote:I've seen the Pumas play Wales in Puerto Madryn in 2006 a very very tough venue.

I don't fancy anyone's chances against Los pumas at home in Argentina

i fancy everyones chances

maestegmafia wrote:I've seen the Pumas play Wales in Puerto Madryn in 2006 a very very tough venue.

I don't fancy anyone's chances against Los pumas at home in Argentina

Was that the game with the massive punch up, where we seemed dead and burried at half time but scored something like 30 unanswered points in the second half to win ?

That was also a Welsh development squad

gowales wrote:The pacific islanders has already been tried and failed in results and commercially. I believe the respective unions actually decided to disband it. You wont see another PI team of any sort for a long time

I agree. Its a logistical nightmare in terms of resources, training, language etc.

Theyd have no home ground to generate any sort of income from tickets and would need to advertise in the main three countries to generate corporate income or sponsorship.

Argentina I believe have missed their window of opportunity this year in that their negotiation into the 4N window four years ago shold have been supplemented by at least several key player contracts in the sxv so at least some players are playing the same seasonal window as their 3N foe. Thats what id expected when it was announced...but..nothing. They just expect to roll up on the back of. . What?

The sxv weaker sides could have easily accommodated some of the better players.

Somewhere, someones stuffed up with the planning of this. Or lack of it.

timhen wrote:Argentina v SANZAR for the last decade or so:

Australia (14) 24 - 8 (3) Argentina 2003
Argentina (6) 6 - 17 (14) Australia 2002
Australia (21) 32 - 25 (17) Argentina 2000
Australia (15) 53 - 6 (3) Argentina 2000
Argentina (15) 18 - 16 (13) Australia 1997
Argentina (6) 15 - 23 (11) Australia 1997

South Africa (14) 63 - 9 (9) Argentina 2008
Argentina (6) 13 - 37 (24) South Africa 2007
Argentina (20) 23 - 34 (16) South Africa 2005
Argentina (7) 7 - 39 (36) South Africa 2004
South Africa (13) 26 - 25 (15) Argentina 2003
South Africa (17) 49 - 29 (13) Argentina 2002
Argentina (16) 33 - 37 (24) South Africa 2000

New Zealand (12) 33 - 10 (7) Argentina 2011
Argentina (16) 19 - 25 (15) New Zealand 2006
New Zealand (24) 41 - 7 (7) Argentina 2004
Argentina (10) 20 - 24 (8) New Zealand 2001
New Zealand (31) 67 - 19 (14) Argentina 2001

It's interesting looking at those results that the scores are often relatively close at HT.

Playing Australia in Argentina would seem to be their best opportunity, against whom their forward based game could provide an edge. Being their last game, they'd also have had more time together as a team and the Aussies might put a few fringe players in if the result isn't critical to tournament placement.

What well known/international class players play for Argentina? Fernandez Lobbe is one, I thought he had a great world cup and he is one of my favourite players to watch. Will he be back from his long term injury? Plus I can't think of any others though.

mystiroakey wrote:well got to remeber that argentina are a country that celberates junkie cheats a.....they have a different outlook on the world than we do!

yeah at least the english think stevens is sh1t

EBOP wrote:The Argies always seem to have at least one massive game in them for an upset, ala recent WCs. It'll be a game of Russian roulette, who's the unlucky team out of the 3 others to pull that trigger and have their brains blown out. Sure as heck hope it isn't the ABs. Reckon they'll make a far better go of it than italy has in the 6Ns. They're still pretty poor after all these years, to be fair.

Sorry but if beating scotland is considered an upset then its hardly a ringing endorsment of their quality is it. Unlike Italy in the 6ns they wont hav ethe porridge eaters or an equivelant bunch of muppets to finish ahead of once every 3 years.
They are out of their depth in that competition ( as would be the likes of wales france and england) and will continue to rely on trying to outmuscle the opposition rather than expanding their game as they could against more even opposition.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

EBOP wrote:The Argies always seem to have at least one massive game in them for an upset, ala recent WCs. It'll be a game of Russian roulette, who's the unlucky team out of the 3 others to pull that trigger and have their brains blown out. Sure as heck hope it isn't the ABs. Reckon they'll make a far better go of it than italy has in the 6Ns. They're still pretty poor after all these years, to be fair.

Sorry but if beating scotland is considered an upset then its hardly a ringing endorsment of their quality is it. Unlike Italy in the 6ns they wont hav ethe porridge eaters or an equivelant bunch of muppets to finish ahead of once every 3 years.
They are out of their depth in that competition ( as would be the likes of wales france and england) and will continue to rely on trying to outmuscle the opposition rather than expanding their game as they could against more even opposition.

Fair dues, I was thinking more about France and some of the other games where they've given teams ranked above them a fright. I remember the Argies giving a clone ABs side captained by Jerry Collins a big scare in 2006. Jerry, bless his heart, let the F word slip out in the after game interview, classic

Don't think anyone will give the Argies a chance, but I have a feeling they may surprise on home soil and especially if they play aggressively, and that they're likely to eventually rack up some wins and probably at a faster pace than Italy has in the 6N and against more esteemed opposition.

You may see more Argie upsets in future WCs on the back of the experience they'll hopefully gain from the 4N, and they'll probably no longer be referred to as upsets. Who knows?

Brendan wrote:Is Auz that PC or is it just the PC have all the control

Neither. We are probably more egalitarian than most but we also (unfortunately) have made both good and bad decisions when it comes to sending our sporting teams abroad to certain hotspots.

Think of SA (rugby boycott) and Moscow Olympics (1980) but also rebel cricket tours were organised in the midst of the Apartheid era; which have been to our detriment (in terms of fielding our best possible cricket team) and caused a bit of a split here domestically at the time.

I'm still not convinced we should have toured Sri Lanka recently to play cricket so soon after their Civil War. Something was not right there. It could be construed that we were all in full support of the SL Government's actions in the north-east - which I can assure you is not the case at all.

I don't think Australia would make the any noise if we were to play at the Estadio Malvinas Argentinas in Mendoza. The political situation between GB and Argentina over the Falklands War has practically nothing to do with us.

Hello, I must first congratulate you on your excellent forum.
I am a former Argentine rugby player (only amateur, not professional).
Some information you give in the thread are correct, other are wrong.
Have said that Argentina never beat England and this is false. The statistics are 16 played, 4 wins Argentina, England 10 wins and 2 draws.
About Agentine's skill:
In the last two World Cups, Argentina was eliminated by the virtual champion (South Africa 2007, New Zealand 2011).
In 2007 they beat France twice (France playing at home) beat Ireland and beat Scotland (not bad).
In 2011 they missed the victory at the last minute with England, beat Scotland and lost with the virtual champion NZ. (Again, not bad).
What we hope for the rugby championship?
Well, in the first year is not expected to win, only lose with dignity. For the following years we expect some wins at home. And the most important, after 4 years playing the rugby championship we hope to have a formidable team for next world cup.
About the name "Malvinas Argentinas" is just a name, and this is not a political forum, but I just want to say that the fact of winning a war does not necessarily mean that the winner is right, is just that, imposed by force, not by the law and justice.
I will conclude by discussing the status of amateur rugby in Argentina.
It's a long story, but its amateur, not for lack of money, but the mentality of the club's leaders. Finally a fact, Argentina has more than 50,000 registered players (not bad) and is expected that the rugby championship boost growth this amount.
If someone wants to know something more about rugby in Argentina and the expectation about the rugby championship, I will gladly answer it.
Thank you very much. And sorry for my poor english.

My bro travelled through Arg about 6 years ago and he reckoned that whereever he went lots of the locals knew all about rugby and the ABs etc. In fact of the two rugby bits of kit I have ever owned the latest is a rip off AB jersey from Arg

Gidday Argie fan, good luck this year fella. Personally I'm very much looking forward to seeing you guys play in the 4N and get better over time (fingers crossed!).

Argie fan wrote:Hello, I must first congratulate you on your excellent forum.
I am a former Argentine rugby player (only amateur, not professional).
Some information you give in the thread are correct, other are wrong.
Have said that Argentina never beat England and this is false. The statistics are 16 played, 4 wins Argentina, England 10 wins and 2 draws.
About Agentine's skill:
In the last two World Cups, Argentina was eliminated by the virtual champion (South Africa 2007, New Zealand 2011).
In 2007 they beat France twice (France playing at home) beat Ireland and beat Scotland (not bad).
In 2011 they missed the victory at the last minute with England, beat Scotland and lost with the virtual champion NZ. (Again, not bad).
What we hope for the rugby championship?
Well, in the first year is not expected to win, only lose with dignity. For the following years we expect some wins at home. And the most important, after 4 years playing the rugby championship we hope to have a formidable team for next world cup.
About the name "Malvinas Argentinas" is just a name, and this is not a political forum, but I just want to say that the fact of winning a war does not necessarily mean that the winner is right, is just that, imposed by force, not by the law and justice.
I will conclude by discussing the status of amateur rugby in Argentina.
It's a long story, but its amateur, not for lack of money, but the mentality of the club's leaders. Finally a fact, Argentina has more than 50,000 registered players (not bad) and is expected that the rugby championship boost growth this amount.
If someone wants to know something more about rugby in Argentina and the expectation about the rugby championship, I will gladly answer it.
Thank you very much. And sorry for my poor english.

Welcome, Argie, have you followed the Pampas in South Africa over the past few years in the Vodacom Cup?

Welcome Argie fan,

For me, Argentina is one of the sides i wish to avoid in the pool stages of a RWC.

I wish you guys the best of luck and can only see this as being huge for Argentine rugby, you will become a much more stronger side by playing the best three rugby nations regularly.

Hola y bienvenido a este foro amigo. ¡Y mucha mierda! (Hi and welcome to 606, friend. Best of luck!)

I think it´s great to have Argentina in this competition. Firstly, their exploits on the international stage, notably in the World Cup, deserve a place in a meaningful international competition.

Secondly, their performance in one-off internationals should take into account that they have been in the international wilderness and they have not benefited from regular international competition. Many posters here seem to ignore that fact.

Thirdly, the 4N will be a richer tournament with Argentina´s inclusion. There were too many games between SA, NZ and Australia (3 matches in a year against the two other sides was overkill) and another style of rugby will be greatly welcome. Sides like Australia will be the better for it but an emphasis on the set piece for all sides is no bad thing. Conversely, greater exposure to the more ambitious style of play will be no bad thing for Argentina either.

Thank you for your welcome.

For biltongbek:

"Welcome, Argie, have you followed the Pampas in South Africa over the past few years in the Vodacom Cup?"

Yes, of course, they debuted in 2010 with a performance intermediate, were then undefeated champions in 2011, and this year they are competing quite successfully.
What many people do not know is that The Pampas XV, is something like factory of future Pumas. As their coach Daniel Hourcade says:"To us is not important the result of Vodacom Cup, the truly important, our real goal is to train players to be available for the coaching staff of Los Pumas".

For EBOP:

"Gidday Argie fan, good luck this year fella. Personally I'm very much looking forward to seeing you guys play in the 4N and get better over time (fingers crossed!)."

Thank you, just I hope that the inclusion of Los Pumas help make the tournament more attractive, if not technically, at least provide a different playing style. Thanks for the fingers crossed.

For kiakahaaotearoa

Indeed it is very important to highlight the lack of competition suffered by Los Pumas, because of unable to play regularly in international tournaments. They literally join every four years to play the World Cup, and then said goodbye to the next world. Yes, there are IRB windows, but not the same.

Argie fan wrote:Thank you for your welcome.

For biltongbek:

"Welcome, Argie, have you followed the Pampas in South Africa over the past few years in the Vodacom Cup?"

Yes, of course, they debuted in 2010 with a performance intermediate, were then undefeated champions in 2011, and this year they are competing quite successfully.
What many people do not know is that The Pampas XV, is something like factory of future Pumas. As their coach Daniel Hourcade says:"To us is not important the result of Vodacom Cup, the truly important, our real goal is to train players to be available for the coaching staff of Los Pumas".

Oh, Argie I think your coach is just being modest, last year the performances of Pampas was consistent and the setup is obviously working very well.

What do the players think of the competition, are they enjoying it?

Why are they called Los Pumas when you don´t have any in Argentina?

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Why are they called Los Pumas when you don´t have any in Argentina?

Yes, there are pumas in Argentina!, specially in Patagonia.
Here is a Wikipedia link about pumas (animal):

"en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cougar"
(New members are not allowed to post external links or emails for 7 days)

You can see the distribution map of all America continent, including Patagonia.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Why are they called Los Pumas when you don´t have any in Argentina?

There are still some but the poulations were decimated by hunters post European colonisation.

I travelled across Argentina and came across no issues whatsoever regarding the Falklands war. If it came up in conversation, most people agreed that it was a waste of time and more tragically, lives for both sides. The recent spat is political BS, pure and simple. Kirchner and Cameron say controversial things while newspapers like the Daily Mail lap up. Its just political grandstanding from two governments desperately trying to detract from their obvious shortcomings. They will resolve it by (rightfully IMO) giving a share of the oil to Argentina and cameron will attempt to make out that he is some ssort of a pacifist(!) / aid provider, whilst Kirchner will claim that she has achieved her aims peacefully. Apart from a few xenophobic nutters in each country most people can surely see the reality of this situation? Argentina's military is worse equipped than it was in the 1980's and Britians is over worked and undermanned, fighting in one of the most brutal and difficult countries to fight.

Who cares what Sean Penn and Morrisey think? I'll tell you what Sean, you give your malibu beach house back to the whicheveer native american tribe origionally owned the land, then we'll talk. As for you Morrisey, with your Irish mind and English heart, why dont you hand your Manchester semi back to the Druid Society of Britain, you Muppet.

Oh and welcome to the site, Argie fan, and good luck in the Rugby Championship. Your team will no doubt have a lot of support from most fans in the Northern Hemisphere. I hope that the SANZAR nations help by introducing rules making the S15 clubs sign Argentine players to aid their development. Clearly this would be for the good of the game, although perhaps not commercially so its probably a non starter. God, I'm in a good mood today...

They're called pumas because South African journalists can't tell the difference between pumas & jaguars. Apparently.

Yeah, put that one on us.

It's a jaguar on the crest but a south African journalist in the 60s made a mistake and called them the pumas and it stuck. There are both jaguars and pumas in Argentina.