James Haskell and the England Backrow

First topic message reminder :

Just wondering how he is getting on in the Super 15 and whether he may be able to push on in an England shirt after his quite consistently good performances the last few seasons?

I caught a bit of one game he was in and in all honesty I was disappointed, he very much seemed to be going through the motions and looked a bit lost in some parts. I am hoping that as it was an earlier game in the season he was still adjusting to the speed after playing the Japan league. Other thing I noticed is that he seems to have slimmed down a bit, any idea if this is just due to the speed of the league or whether he may have been specifically told to by the coaching staff?

Anyway, I think he has the potential to become a seriously top class back rower and see his season in the super15 as being the making of him.

The last thing I want to ask is where does he fit in the England backrow and who plays where? We now seem to have plenty of backrow options, with Robshaw leading well and doing everything asked of him, Croft finding form, MOrgan coming into his own, Wood soon to be back from injury and now Armitage on fire in Toulon. For me, with all things being equal (form fitness etc) I would go for this;

6. Haskell
7. Armitage
8. Morgan

19. Croft

Harsh on Wood (especially so) and Robshaw but i think this is the most balanced, out and out 7, athletic tackling and carrying 6 (his hands aren't too bad either) and then a big lump at the base. Croft for impact, but to be honest we could have quite a few different combinations and i think most of them would be decent enough. However, against the Welsh, Irish, French and 3N back rows, decent isnt good enough.

Thoughts?

Botha has the short for the moment and wil go to SA as first choice....but Garvey could well dispose him with some powerful displays for the midweek team...

Have to say, the english back row is going to start competing with the best in the world very soon IMO. I do think Haskell will and should start at 6 when he returns to England, and having both he and Morgan in the same back row is going to be pretty terrifying for the opposition. Very dynamic and devastating ball carriers. Then there is Wood, Croft, Robshaw, Crane etc to pick from too.

Just for interests sake. Here are some links:
1. An interview in the Guardien on Haskell and what he hopes to get out of his trip and what he ahs to offer wasps when he returns. http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/apr/07/james-haskell-england-new-zealand-rugby

2. ODT interview with Haskell. /www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHwa6n4shzU&feature=youtu.be

3. Brusou (sp?) on himself, Pocock and McCaw (which reflects some earlier coments in this discussion). http://www.keo.co.za/2012/04/10/keotv-ground-warfare/

damn it, haven't got any speakers at work blackcanelion!

I'll try and sum up from memory. Haskell is enjoying his trip through France, Japan and NZ. He is still ambitious and wants to play for England. he feels he has learnt a few things he'll take back with him (E.g. Japanese technical proficiency, the analysis of patterns used by NZ players etc.). I think he's done well and earn't some respect whilst he's been here.

Brousouw's interview is pretty much along the lines that he and Pocock are clones off the same tree. They both get in there and slow the ball down. McCaw is more of a general all round player.

Hopefully, that's more or less right.

good man, thanks blackcanelion. Good to hear Haskell talking like that, and knowing that he's taking something away from him travels. I too think he's earning some respect, and if we can get him playing half as well as Adam Thompson, then he'll be a real asset! Would love to see him back in the EPS mix, but think Lancs will have serious talks with him regarding attitude.

Just a thought. Isn't he supposed to be heading back to Wasps?

Yeh, he is. Returning for next season I believe. They could use him, hopefully allow Launchberry to move back into the second row

Are they still going to be around? is it Wasps that's currently under financial pressure and facing the recievers?

I hope they're still around- lots of history and it would be a sad day for English rugby to see a club of their calibre go into liquidation. They were in talks with numerous clients regarding acquisition of the club, but they have fallen through. here's a good bbc article on it if you haven't already seen it. Probably explains things a little better than me:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17667931

When is Haskell likely to be available to england? Im assuming he wont be available for SA...if so he could fall behind quite a few players if the current group put in some good performances.

Is Wood likely to be fit for the trip?

Will Armitages form make him an exceptional circumstance pick...or will players like Robshaw - with alround ability be the type of players picked...

Haskell should be around for the AI's Geordie.

Yes other players could well get infront in the short term but he has something we're crying out for currently and that's experience. He's one of the few young players to have plenty of caps and add that to the fact he can play the whole backrow he'll have to be picked, he also looked quality and a cut above most other Eng players last season.

Armitage is a real question mark, yes his form is great but something about it makes me worry he couldn't bring it to the int stage (maybe just his style). And even if he could i'm not sure if he'd be picked, whenever chatting about 7's Lancaster has always said Saul, Kvesic and Wallace for the future.

I think if we did take Armitage then that's Crofts time at 6 over as the two of them couldn't play together, so we'd probably have:

Robshaw
Armitage
Morgan

Croft/Dowson

Wood's fit again now Geordie- he's been back playing for Northampton and looked pretty good from what I've seen.

Agree with yappy that Haskell if available should be picked for the AIs (although he's played a heck of a lot of rugby constantly for a good few months, and could use a rest).

Hoping that Armitage does get picked, and that Lancaster overrules the RFU's foreign policy rule for the time being- whilst the EPS is in a state of change and reform.

Kvesic and Wallace are two really good prospects for the future, but to me, Saull has lost it. He's constantly getting shown up now, doesn't have the size or physicality, and isn't great on the deck. He seems to have taken a real step backwards.

The best back rows have played as a combination for quite a few matches. England are in danger of changing the back row too much and thus negating the benefits of improved unit/team play. No one should be exempt from being dropped, but at the same time some continuity must be allowed. SL will need to pick (if he hasn't already?) his 1st choice back row and stick with it barring injuries and prolonged loss of form. His current back row is pretty good. Yes we would love to see a specialist 7, but if there is not one then Robshaw is doing a decent job and Morgan appears the best bet at 8. At 6 there is competition but Croft played well at the end of the 6Ns and Wood and Haskell will keep the pressure on and provide good bench options.

Agree with that, but at the same time we do need to give others chances to build some depth and that is what this tour is all about. For tournaments like the 6N's we have to play our best but in the summer and AI's i'm all for trying out a few combinations (within reason).

I think 8 is sealed with Morgan....and when fit Crane will be challenging.

Wood was being talked of as the potential captain so is obviously rated by Rowntree and Lancaster.

Croft played well as did Robshaw...so too be honest England are beginning to find a good position from having to play Moody, Worlsley and Easter.....

I wouldn't expect any changes to the starting backrow in SA - there's absolutely zero chance of Robshaw not starting the tests if fit.

If Armitage went to France after the home player rule was implemented then England can't pick him without destroying the credibility of the rule. 'Exceptional circumstances' does not mean playing well. With all the fuss about salary caps the last thing the RFU want is to say to the better English players that moving to France is ok, and how would the RFU explain things to a player like Palmer or Morgan who has moved to England to be available? If Steffon Armitage wants to play for England again he should come back to the AP - if he doesn't have that sort of desire to play for England then there are plenty of other options.

Haskell will be in the mix from the autumn, hopefully Wood will be fit, I'd expect Fearns to be a serious contender next year and if Kvesic starts next season well then he'll be fast tracked. The backrow is looking good.

I'm surprised at some of the negative comments regarding Haskell's performance in last weekend's Stormers game. Only just got round to watching it yesterday and although it certainly wasn't a MOTM showing or one I would have raised otherwise, I thought he put in a fairly decent game. Something the match stats would seem to back up.

He carried for more metres (40) than any other forward on the pitch, twice as many as any of the Stormers' pack. He beat more defenders (5) than any other player (forward or back) from either side (in addition to a clean break and 2 offloads). And he was the Highlanders' top tackler (10, none missed).

http://www.espnscrum.com/super-rugby-2012/rugby/match/151314.html

Wow thats interesting,But is there not a possibility that Thomson would have recorded a much higher metres run stat,but they kept turning off the meter every time he passed.

Haskell needs to get busier, and his tackle count was way lower than any of the Stormers forwards especially the loosies.

How could that incident when Grant ran across the front of Haskell off the side of the scrum in the second half not be recorded as missed tackle in Haskell's column?

I think Armitage is fully deserving of a place in the EPS this summer and his skillset is definitely one we could do with.

Lancaster has already said that he'll look at any player, no matter where they ply their trade, so playing in France isn't an issue anymore per se. However, I'm pretty sure that he won't have the extra release dates that England request written into his contract.

That may or may not be a problem this summer; Toulon are 3rd in the Top 14, so look fairly sure of making the SFs the weekend the England tour will have just arrived in SA, and if Toulon go further than that, the final is the following weekend, the day of England's first test. But even if this summer isn't an issue, will Lancaster select someone that he almost certainly won't have full access to come the AIs & 6N?

aucklandlaurie wrote: Wow thats interesting,But is there not a possibility that Thomson would have recorded a much higher metres run stat,but they kept turning off the meter every time he passed.

Haskell needs to get busier, and his tackle count was way lower than any of the Stormers forwards especially the loosies.

How could that incident when Grant ran across the front of Haskell off the side of the scrum in the second half not be recorded as missed tackle in Haskell's column?

Certainly a possibility.

My point wasn't to suggest that Haskell was a better player than those around him and had had the better all round game, just that in quite key areas he was a significant contributor to the good things his side were doing, contrary to some of the more negative comments regarding his performance.

In relation to the tackle count, yes most Stormer forwards made more tackles (not sure about way more, the majority were 1 or 2 more, only 2 players made significantly more, coupled with a number of misses), but then they had to, the Highlanders made 161 runs with the ball to the Stormers 80. The Highlanders' tackle success rate was 93%, very similar to the Stormers' 90%. As much as the Stormers most certainly got the better of them and were the more effective and efficient team, the Highlanders weren't shirking their defensive duties or allowing the opposition to create far more opportunities (5 clean breaks & 6 defenders beaten by the Stormers to the Highlanders' 9 & 20).

I truely am a little suspicious of some of those stats,but that doesnt really affect the way I read the players and the game,and I am neutral (anythings better than watching the Blues).
The strormers were by and far the better team all round.

Please dont think that comments some of us Kiwis have posted regarding Haskell are intended to be condescending,in fact most of us are watching haskell like a fascinating work in progress.We wish him well ,As we know that by being a foreign test No.8 (which most of us see him as) he has gone into the lions den by going to team coached by Jamie Joseph, a very tough old AB no.8 himself . I hope that by the time he leaves the Highlanders he will be a better player than when he arrived,and I more than confident that he will. Its just a fascinating process to watch.

johnpartle wrote:
Lancaster has already said that he'll look at any player, no matter where they ply their trade, so playing in France isn't an issue anymore per se.

So you are saying that Lancaster has abolished the rule about having to play in England? I haven't seen that quote, I'm not sure if it is solely his decision and, even if it is, given the financial advantage the French sides have and the fact a couple of English players have headed for S15 recently I don't think it's necessarily in his interest's as England head coach.

We'll see what happens.

aucklandlaurie wrote: I truely am a little suspicious of some of those stats,but that doesnt really affect the way I read the players and the game,and I am neutral (anythings better than watching the Blues).
The strormers were by and far the better team all round.

Please dont think that comments some of us Kiwis have posted regarding Haskell are intended to be condescending,in fact most of us are watching haskell like a fascinating work in progress.We wish him well ,As we know that by being a foreign test No.8 (which most of us see him as) he has gone into the lions den by going to team coached by Jamie Joseph, a very tough old AB no.8 himself . I hope that by the time he leaves the Highlanders he will be a better player than when he arrived,and I more than confident that he will. Its just a fascinating process to watch.

I didn't personally see anything condescending in anything anyone's said, just say what you see, right?

I'd agree that he needs to improve his work-rate, i think it's dropped from where it was rather than it being the pace of the game he's adjusting to. Could be partly a result of a very long season, the guy needs a break.

I also thought he came across pretty well in interviews since he's gone there. Really hoping he kicks on.