Lennox Lewis - A Bowe away from top 5 alltime Heavy????

As you know I always felt Lewis needed a defining fight to push him over the top.....

Has a great resume don't get me wrong and good longevity....He'd be a match for any heavy in history..No doubts Ali struggles with the jab although his greater tank and workrate probably leads to a hard earned decision or late stoppage!!

In fact I'd pick only a peak Tyson and Foreman over him......Larry struggled with more inferior types than Lennox...

I digress...........For me a "Steward" Lewis beats Bowe and had Lewis beat him post Holy 3............then he probably has a defining win....and

a splash heard all around the World!!!

With Holy, Tyson, Bowe, Vitali, Ruddock plus other lesser quality ..on his ledger is this enough for Top 5 alltimer and huge legend status!!!

Think it is!!

Lewis needed Bowe.......Shame for his legend he never got him!!

No he did not need Bowe.

What did Bowe do after Holy??????

Lewis built up his record and became the very best of a heavyweight era that was only second to the 70's era of heavies. Thats enough for Lewis to attain TOP 5 STATUS.

The fact that he drew and beat Holy (some would say he beat him twice) escapes you.

History will always state that Bowe ducked Lewis. Lewis wanted the fight Bowe declined.

Ever thought of putting your points in one post???

Bowe didn't have the baggage of Holy when he drew and lost to Lewis!!

Don't tell me what escapes me either....

So let me get this straight.

You think that Lewis does not make top 5 heavyweight all time list because he did not fight Bowe?

Yet you put Tyson before him.

Logic escapes you.

No ..... because he did not beat Bowe....

When Bowe was young and in his prime...and well respected!!!! as you'd know if you were round at the time....He'd just won a great trilogy and his stock was very high and he hadn't been exposed!!!

It was a defining fight!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Holy lost to Bowe twice and Moorer!!!! exposed!

Tyson lost to Holy twice and Douglas!! exposed!

Ruddock lost twice to Tyson!!!... exposed!

Vitali was contentious!!!

Get my drift..

You are trying to suggest that Lewis needed Bowe when in fact it was the other way round. Lewis beat....

Mercer
Holy
Morrison
Tua
Akinwande

all ATG heavyweights.

Your wasting my time...............

Mercer - Ferguson and a 42 year old Larry!!!!

Akinwande...Morrison (Bentt, Mercer)...Tua (ordinary Joe) are all defining are they....??????

Good wins but nothing more.............

How many defining win does Bowe have????

Lewis can name a few. Mercer, Holy, Tyson, Grant, Briggs.

Bowe only has Holy on his record. How would the defining heavyweight champ of that era need Bowe.

I agree that for a better top five claim, he needed a big, big fight around the 1993-1996 mark, but I don't necessarily think it needed to be Bowe. For instance, a fight with Holyfield after he'd regained his titles from Riddick would have done his legacy a world of good had he won it, or even a win over the post-prison version of Tyson in 1996 before Evander put him in his place. I'd concede that Bowe may have been the best option, of course, but all three of them would have helped Lewis' historical impact significantly.

I still think Evander's form between 1996 and 1999 was good enough to mark that one out as a meritorious win for Lewis, but it was probably a few years too late to remove absolutely all doubt.

i don't know truss... this is about as positive as i've seen you on lewis, and you're still drawing flak.

I agree to an extent that, for no fault of his own, lewis lacks the big fight against a 'prime' opponent, and at the right time, bowe would have been that guy... or as near to it as he was going to get

I agree that had he beaten a 94 Tyson or Bowe-beating 2nd fight Holy it would have been defining....

However due to their ages.....amateur rivalry......and even matching in size and skill set...

Bowe had the makings of the superfight that maybe Tyson v Lennox and Holy-Lennox lacked!!!

and a possible trilogy...

Holy only beat Bowe by one point...whereas Bowe really took the title off him.......

Onetwo...Bowe was a formidable champion and an unbeaten great in holy was a great defining win......

Your missing my point anyway......

Bowe had a defining win Lewis didn't end of....

Though Lewis rightfully ranks just higher....Look at the title of the thread!!!

Lewis would have beaten Bowe. Bowe had a problem with Lewis psychologically.

If Lewis beats Bowe I still don't make him Top 5. Lewis was a massive guy with a big jab. There are a couple of guys like that floating around at the moment. All three sometimes tedious to watch.

You honestly think the Klits match up to lewis??????

Or is it because he's regarded as English.....

We all know why you dislike Haye....No disrespect.....

My dislike for Haye has nothing to do with his nationality. I've bored of him anyway.

Vitali gave a fattish less motivated version of Lewis a good run for money I thought.

Lewis is better than the K's obviously based on opposition but you have to have remembered Lennox boring the pants off everybody which is what I was alluding to.

Lewis was 38..................and still too much at times for the young robot..

Don't get orgasmic watching Johnson vs Jeffries/Burns highlights but he's still my number three...................

Or maybe Lewis did Hack squats like Dorian!!!

Johnson isn't everybodys Top 3. Johnson has a bit of a stink off him too and thats not just his fighting style.

Johnson is in most top 5's mate...............

Well Ernie Shavers was exciting.........maybe he should be top 10???

What's the matter with you!!

I'm agreeing with you that Lewis is great just not Top 5 great.

What's wrong with you I thought you would have been happy with my assessment. Get Joanne to take your temperature.

I'm so hot the thermo usually breaks...

Sorry I thought you were being pedantic.....

My mistake.. I should know you'd never be that.......

Tell her not to stick it in your bottom next time.

Pedant moi?

Maybe on the Haye issue. You have a full array of hate characters.

Back to boxing I think Top 5 requires a bit more pizazz and style in victory.

I probably don't rate Lewis as highly as most here, but having said that, he was an excellent boxer, who IMO did not have a truely defining fight, not at his peak at least.

Although his has wins over Holyfield (twice in my book) and Tyson, both of them have a * above them, particularly Tyson, and while his wins over the likes of Mercer, Tua and Briggs are very good, none of those fighters are truely top drawer.

I think a win over Bowe in the mid 90's would have done a great deal for Lewis' legacy, as say what you will about Bowe, when he was on song, he had just about every attribute you could want in a HW boxer. I think it would say a lot if he were to have won that fight, as Bowe was one of the few fighters who could match him size wise in his prime.

Personally I still wouldn't have had him at top 5 ATG even with a win over Bowe, but he would certainly be guranteed top 10 (which I don't have him at now).

Fairplay Strongy............

A lot I agree on Nathan...........

Surely he belongs with the Rock........... with prime Bowe though????

Or maybe not who knows...good night...

Lewis not top ten is inconceivable to me, would struggle to have ten fighters above him but imagine the names of Frazier, Liston, Tyson and Holyfield would be suggested.

Lewis could be boring but he had far too many early round blow outs to be labelled as a boring fighter.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:You are trying to suggest that Lewis needed Bowe when in fact it was the other way round. Lewis beat....

Mercer
Holy
Morrison
Tua
Akinwande

all ATG heavyweights.

You are joking? only Holyfield was even a world champion of those five (can't take the WBO seriously especially back then). Mercer lost to journeymen, Morrison got knocked out by journeymen, Tua had a big left hook and chin but little else, Akinwande was a fraud.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:History will always state that Bowe ducked Lewis. Lewis wanted the fight Bowe declined.

I'm sure it was Lewis who declined originally because he felt he wasn't getting a high enough split for the fight despite being the challenger. Then being KO'd by McCall ruined things further, i never believed Bowe didn't want to fight Lewis, Newman just wanted to make all the money he could and unfortunately wasted Riddick's short prime.

It seemed to me that Lennox Lewis was very good when he prepared for the fight and was motivated. In some of his fights he seemed disinterested and out of shape.

A similar thing happened to Tyson, but more obviously so. He just seemed to lose focus and motivation. Maybe it was partly because he achieved it all so early and there weren't really any challenges remaining. When the division started to heat up again he was already a bit of a wreck.

Dont know what the huge conception with Bowe is, Lewis certainly wouldn't jump to a top 5 fighter with Bowe on his resume. Lets be honest Riddick has 2 good wins against Evander and thats it on his record.

Never fought a puncher throughout his career and as Strongback mentioned, Lewis had his number in any stage of his career and Bowe knew, soon as that right hand touched Riddick it was curtains for me.

Lewis' right wasn't that great, quite a few guys took it well (Mavrovic,Mercer,Tua) and never budged. Although Bowe didn't take on any ATG puncher's he showed a far better chin whenever i saw him, it was only Holyfield III, some 35 fights in to his career i saw him show any sign on being hurt (probably down to terrible weight fluctuations). I don't watch much amateur boxing but look at the Olympic fight, Bowe clearly win's the first round then Lewis starts round 2 better, lands a good right hand but it's not even close to a genuine knockdown and the referee stops it. Bowe was a warrior, pre Steward he beats Lewis for me.

monty junior wrote:Lewis' right wasn't that great, quite a few guys took it well (Mavrovic,Mercer,Tua) and never budged. Although Bowe didn't take on any ATG puncher's he showed a far better chin whenever i saw him, it was only Holyfield III, some 35 fights in to his career i saw him show any sign on being hurt (probably down to terrible weight fluctuations). I don't watch much amateur boxing but look at the Olympic fight, Bowe clearly win's the first round then Lewis starts round 2 better, lands a good right hand but it's not even close to a genuine knockdown and the referee stops it. Bowe was a warrior, pre Steward he beats Lewis for me.

I'd agree with that too.

From what I've seen and read, I'm not sure it is as simple as Bowe simply ducking Lewis, no doubt Newman and a few others had some influence behind the scenes as well, and as others have said, if you put Lewis' career timeline side by side with Bowe, the loss to Mcall further convoluted issues.

I think Lewis had an ackward prime IMO, in that by the time he reached his peak, Tyson, Holyfield and Bowe were all past theirs, so it is difficult to predict how he would have faired against any of them in the earl/mid 90's, however, I personally think an early post-prison Tyson, and Bowe beat Lewis, while a 95-97 Holyfield is a lot more active and perhaps sneeks a decion.

I think Bowe's inside game and inherant strength gets past Lewis jab (which although very good wasn't especially fast or frequent), and wears Lewis down, eventually cathcing him inside ala Rd 10 in the first Holy fight.

beating bowe would certainly add to his resume, but im not sure history will be as kind to bowe as trussman is. in fact lewis beating him would probably have made bowe far less enigmatic. beating prime tyson is what lewis needed, but unfortunately never got the chance, then he would have been nailed on top 5 heavy. although he is for me anyway

Men like Tua, Mercer and Mavrovic were renowned for having iron chins so it's not really fair to use them as a way of downplaying the effectiveness of Lewis' right hand which was devastating when it landed.

You can't fight those who won't fight you. It is taken as a given that Bowe ducked Lewis shamefully. The belt binning incident will never be forgotten, if he was going to duck Lewis then Bowe should have just let his management worm his way out of the fight rather than publicly display such cowardice.

Apart from Ali and Louis and maybe Johnson and Foreman I don't see anyone really leaping way ahead of Lewis to get to the top 5 ever. I'd place Lewis above the likes of Marciano, Frazier, Holmes, Tyson and Holyfield.

Ali and Louis are streets ahead of everyone else beyond which any of Lewis, Foreman, Holmes, Dempsey, Johnson or Jeffries have a claim to be third, no one stands out as being that much more deserving.

Foreman- No real longevity but destructions of Norton and Frazier are hard to ignore as well as a fairly credible return as an old man.

Holmes- Questionable opposition with a few close fights but longevity and obvious talent.

Dempsey- Devastating fighter but lost to the best fighter he ever faced while his title reign was far from impressive

Johnson- Better record before winning the title but title reign is the worst of the top heavyweights

Jeffries- Top quality opposition but did rely on his size to outmuscle smaller opponents.

Lewis- Longevity but losses to McCall and Rahman are worse than any of the others.

Yeah I agree IG, I'd say Lewis gets put in some top 5 lists and gets left out of others.

Strangely enough I always think the revenge wins over McCall and Rahman actually add to Lewis' legacy, almost as if it was a blessing he lost to them in the first place.

Certain inferior boxers have held an Indian sign over better fighters such as Junior Jones over Barrera for example but Lewis made sure that minor talents such as Rahman wasn't his bogeyman. The retribution Lewis had over Rahman is one of my favourite Lennox Lewis performances.

McCall just quit and was a renowned nutjob mentally. Even with his hand's down and crying Lewis hit him with all he had and barely moved him. I don't really think that count's for much, ultimately losing to Rahman and McCall in the first place is a disaster for his resume imo. Rahman was nothing more than a good puncher.

monty junior wrote:McCall just quit and was a renowned nutjob mentally. Even with his hand's down and crying Lewis hit him with all he had and barely moved him. I don't really think that count's for much, ultimately losing to Rahman and McCall in the first place is a disaster for his resume imo. Rahman was nothing more than a good puncher.

Lewis didn't open up at all when McCall started to breakdown. Losing to Rahman first time out was a disaster but at least he comprehensively put the record straight.