Why the Welsh should support England to win RWC 2015

I suspect this may not go down very well, but bear with me, there is a logical argument.

Firstly, I think most would agree that Wales has always measured itself against England - " as long as we beat England" etc.

In retrospect, it seems clear that Wales' current resurgence was largely sparked by England's triumph in RWC 2003, which provided a massive incentive to Wales to up its game.

Since then, Wales have won 3 Grandslams 2005, 2008, 2011 - an impressive record and now have a very good International side.

However, there is a big jump needed now to become competitive with the SH big three and so far Wales have had little success brdging this gap.

Just imagine though, if England won RWC 2015 - what a motivation for Wales to push on and attempt to scale those giddy heights. In 10 - 20 years, they could have a World Cup of their own.

So, to all my fellow posters who are Welsh, I urge you to support England in 2015 - you know it makes sense

When people like HERSH only post about Wales you can't blame us for not supporting England.

I see what you're saying but I have to disagree with you on two .

Firstly, during the bad years of the 90's it is true to say that Wales measured themselves against England. The 'as long as we beat England' thing isn't because we measure ourselves against England its because its fun to beat them. We don't measure ourselves against England now, I would say Australia are our next yard stick.

Secondly it wasn't England winning the world cup that sparked the Welsh upsurge. In many ways it was the loss against England though. The fact that Wales went to the world chip as no hopers and gave England and new Zealand very good games ignited a bit of
and suddenly there was a Welsh way again.

having said that I wonder what price you'd get on an England Wales final. Now that would be Assn event

I freely admit that this is mostly a wind up

However, there is an underlying truth that the Home Nations rivalry does push us all to develop.

If`s ,buts,and maybe`s,England are at home so that`s an advantage,but it is hardly a Fortress like New Zealand.
Lets walk before we can fly,in 4 years time the whole scene will have changed
the Sh sides will be unrecognizable.
BUT,do you want to bet they are less formidable,they have lots fof young talent in depth.Is greater than anywhere,4 years is a short time to build a RWC winning team nearer 7.
A promising start,and I realise this thread is a wind up BUT I will treat it with respect.
Wales,are currently riding high,as to England JUST assuming they are THE leading
world`s nation in 2015.
That they have got there by playing BALANCED Rugby,will they revert to safety first RWC tactics.As every England side has in the recent past?
I for one would love to see WALES win a RWC,just to shut the nimbies up,I care nothing for RWCs. Support NZ,England,Scotland in that order tho an Anglo-Scot,JUST to see the same teams not be there.

chuckle. I'd agree with every word, but I suspect the Welsh have their eyes on the 2015 WC for themselves, (a) because with this side they damn well ought to! and (b) because nicking "England's" WC would make it doubly sweet.

When people like HERSH only post about Wales you can't blame us for not supporting England.

Sadly, I know English people who have no time for the Welsh because of the way some Welsh have posted on various rugby boards down the years. Personally I don't think either attitude gets any of us anywhere good.

Wales resurgent form has nothing to do with England's glorious RWC win a decade ago or any other team. Actually maybe Western Samoa had a bit to do with it.

It has a hell of a lot to do with the reinvention at the WRU, realising we had terrible problems in our game throughout the nineties and doing something major about it.

The amount that has been done and by so many people, professional as well as passionate, is an amazing feat that is rewarded with those Grandslams.

Wales needed a massive kick up the backside in the early nineties, and it happened. Now we have a system within the game that works, it develops talent and pushes them towards recognition at the best of their ability.

Maest

If I'm being honest rather than provocative, I'd find it hard to argue with any of that

'as long as we beat the English' is a bit of a date cliche. Sure, we used to feel that way when you used to spank us. But for me, and many fellow fans, England is just another game. France, Ireland and the tri nations are the big ones for me now.

so you think france and ireland are bigger games than playing against england- lol to that.

Its good that you lot are getting better so you dont have that wierd little brother syndrome in 'as long as we beat england attitude' however stop talking porkies lol

mystiroakey wrote:so you think france and ireland are bigger games than playing against england- lol to that.

Its good that you lot are getting better so you dont have that wierd little brother syndrome in 'as long as we beat england attitude' however stop talking porkies lol

France are the world cup finalists and the ones who knocked us out in the semis, plus they're usually the top team in the NH. Therefore they're the scalp I look to first. Wales and Ireland had had loads of good ding dongs lately, some really close games, and until recently were IMO the 2nd best NH team. Therefore, even though they have had a bad year at international level by their standards, I still look at Ireland as a big scalp and a top 6N team to beat. The point is that my season isn't complete by beating England, and isn't ruined by losing to them. It's how we do against those other two that does it for me. Plus how we do against the SH.

Sorry if that bruises your ego.

doesnt bruise my ego- your just talking rubbish- you want to believe but deep down its rubbish

Typical English arrogance there, telling me that you think you know what I feel better than me!

Back to the OP though, I will be supporting England in the 2015 world cup, but in only the same way as I support the other UK and Ireland nations. I realise that Ireland is a different country, but for some reason I still support them as if they are one of the UK nations. Not sure why as technically they are just another European country like Iceland or France!

By your rationale i could say that as england fans we see scotland bneing our biggest game and france not having any bearing because we beat em all the time!

If you think that ireland or france are better teams than england then your nuts dude.. have your rivalies if you want i got no dramas with that- however ask any self respecting celt about what team they would rather beat..

Griff wrote:Back to the OP though, I will be supporting England in the 2015 world cup, but in only the same way as I support the other UK and Ireland nations. I realise that Ireland is a different country, but for some reason I still support them as if they are one of the UK nations. Not sure why as technically they are just another European country like Iceland or France!

It really doesnt take a rockect scientist to understand why we class ireland as a home nation, there are not just another european country, apart from our lions connections , we also have the fact that northern ireland is part of the UK, the fact we are so close logistically, we speak the same language, we have had free immigration way before europe!! seriously are you for real!!

The reason I made the obvious distinction with Ireland is that this board has been known to go nuclear at the mention of Ireland having anything to do with the UK. I wasn't going to make that mistake.

On the other point; The English take great delight in telling the Welsh on here that a Wales-England game means little to them, that there are bigger fish to fry, and so be it. For England, France is probably is a bigger, and who you choose to find the biggest challenge is up to you. Why, though, does Wales have to see England as the biggest thing? There is that 'closest neighbour/ enemy' thing, and that was a big motivator for the magnitude of a game for me and many others back in the late 90's and early 2000s. But since we've been more competitive with you, beating you has less meaning. That's just the way it is.

Don't tell me who I have to like and dislike!

Spot on griff, I feel much more nervous about us playing Ireland and France. I'll admit in the dark days of the 90's to the early 00's England was the biggest game for me, but now France and Ireland are FAR bigger, can anyone deny that our biggest game this year was France?? Or even in the other GS winning seasons?? Beating England has lost its importance, maybe because it happens a lot more nowadays, still good to see Inverdale + Guscotts face when it happens though!!

so you include ireland as well then osprey, and even though england beat wlaes and france more than they beat us i have no idea what you are on about

basically if you put secondr ate teams on a pedastool like ireland and france then you welshies have no chance ever becoming the team that england has been or will be again!

Second Rate teams (Ireland and France) have the best overall record in the 6N... most games won.

Crap this year doesn't mean crap next year. Crap this year for Ireland was playing acknowledged dreadful stuff and still coming away with more game points than either Wales or England, and still coming away with more tries than either Wales or England.

That's Ireland in a bad year . Wales and England have had a starting-off good year - congratulations to both... so far.

Beating England is ok nowadays its not exactly the biggest fixture on the Welsh calendar but its still good to see the smugness wiped off English faces and my girlfriend is English so I love to get one up on the other half

I dont really care how England do to be honest but I dont want them to win the world cup for the obvious reason of the constant gloating that us non-English UK residents have to suffer

Steffan wrote:I dont really care how England do to be honest but I dont want them to win the world cup for the obvious reason of the constant gloating that us non-English UK residents have to suffer

I guessing you don't want Wales to win for the same reason then right?

HammerofThunor wrote:I guessing you don't want Wales to win for the same reason then right?

Welsh success does not get mentioned outside of Wales though does it. Well if Wales ever did win the rugby world cup im sure the Daily Mail and Telegraph may do a small article on it

I suspect this may not go down very well, but bear with me, there is a logical argument.

Firstly, I think most would agree that Wales has always measured itself against England - " as long as we beat England" etc.

A valid point, and true to some extent. England is the team the Welsh want to beat the most. However Ireland is our biggest rival because for Welsh teams to be successful in ALL competitions it means the Irish can't be.

In retrospect, it seems clear that Wales' current resurgence was largely sparked by England's triumph in RWC 2003, which provided a massive incentive to Wales to up its game.

Wrong! The Welsh resurgence was based on the formation of the Celtic league and the regions. Condensing the Welsh talent pool and competing against quality Irish players, so raising our players standards has what has made both countries strong in recent years. Wales and Ireland have dominated British rugby as a result of us both pooling our teams and competing.

Since then, Wales have won 3 Grandslams 2005, 2008, 2011 - an impressive record and now have a very good International side.

However, there is a big jump needed now to become competitive with the SH big three and so far Wales have had little success brdging this gap.

11 Sep 2011 South Africa 17 - 16 Wales
13 Nov 2010 Wales 25 - 29 South Africa
05 Jun 2010 Wales 31 - 34 South Africa
08 Nov 2008 Wales 15 - 20 South Africa

Were not really that far away, we do need to beat one of these teams though at some point. I think we have a chance of sneaking a win over one of them in the next few seasons.

Just imagine though, if England won RWC 2015 - what a motivation for Wales to push on and attempt to scale those giddy heights. In 10 - 20 years, they could have a World Cup of their own.

No, no, and no!

So, to all my fellow posters who are Welsh, I urge you to support England in 2015 - you know it makes sense

mystiroakey, yeah, i'd definately rate Ireland better than England, this year aside, have a quick look at your recent results against them, dosent make pretty reading for you. As mentioned above Ireland have won more games in the 6n than England, no matter how much you dont like to hear it, a lot of people will fear Ireland and France over England nowadays.

And the 2012 Award for Most Glaringly Obvious Wind-up goes to...........

Taffineastbourne wrote:And the 2012 Award for Most Glaringly Obvious Wind-up goes to...........

Given that he posted it on April 1st ...

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:And the 2012 Award for Most Glaringly Obvious Wind-up goes to...........

Given that he posted it on April 1st ...

Usually subtlety is required of a good April Fools' Day jape.I have had more subtle pokes in the eye!

Wales put their house in order off the field due to losing a lot. Now it's starting to pay off.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:And the 2012 Award for Most Glaringly Obvious Wind-up goes to...........

Given that he posted it on April 1st ...

Really, that was a joke?

That was no different to 50 or 60 other posts by England fans trying to antagonise Welsh rugby supporters.

That was no different to 50 or 60 other posts by England fans trying to antagonise Welsh rugby supporters.

None coming the other way, of course...

Cowshot wrote:

That was no different to 50 or 60 other posts by England fans trying to antagonise Welsh rugby supporters.

None coming the other way, of course...

Not the twenty odd posts a day that your mates write no absolutely not.

Not the twenty odd posts a day that your mates write no absolutely not.

Someone - it doesn't matter whether Welsh or English posts something inflammatory or contentious. Six people from the other country react to the OP in offensive, condescending, or generally stupid ways (six more just disagree). Several other people hitherto not involved from the first country now get miffed with one or other post and weigh in, which upsets whole load other others and hey presto, full scale row.

It doesn't matter who starts it - both sides are guilty of that. Once it starts it just rolls on. Plus I betcha some saddoes hold over grudges and try to "get even" on a later date.

Think it's effin pathetic myself. Does no good to anyone. Just seen a few adverts suggesting English people might want to holiday in Wales. Not if they've read some of the comments about what the Welsh apparently believe the English are like they won't! Would you take your family to visit people who thought you were like that?

I certainly know an English Rugby fan (or two...) who just can't stand the Welsh. Reason for it? Stuff he's read on the Rugby boards over the years. Not here, but the old BBC, Planet Rugby, etc and what really gets him is the not the rugby stuff, it's the anti-Englishness behind so much of it. Any old stick will do - the Ash splash? English arrogance. Welsh player does the same? Oh, his arm was at a slightly different angle so his celebration is respectful...Yeah, right. Not the sort of comment that encourages respect.

So yes, this sort of stuff does real damage to both our countries. But play on, if self harm floats your boat.