Who are the keepers for England?

Like almost everybody else, I've been pleasantly surprised by England in the 6N. Not the finished article by any means, but an incredible rate of improvement and a good foundation for the future. Lancaster has done enough to keep the job I would hope - even for the RFU - although I bet it will be a short-term contract.

So all good, then - except...............

We still have no cutting edge. Before anyone else points this out, I know it's a new team, still learning to play together etc. but I still can't convince myself that this particular group of players can be world beaters. So, I started wondering, from here, who would you keep & who would you replace - and with whom?

For me, starting from the front, Cole & Corbs are nailed on. Hartley I don't rate, but no obvious alternative presents so I'd keep him.

Second row, Parling, Lawes (in spite of his girly moment) & Palmer all look good.

Back row, Croft is getting back to his best, Morgan is a great find (thanks Wales) which leaves Robshaw as my first question mark. Is he better than Wood? almost certainly not, but personally I'd keep him for his leadership.

Half backs, OK here we go. I know Lee Dickson had a mare against Ireland, but I still rate him more than Youngs who I think is suspect under pressure. Care needs to get his act together, but should be back in the frame. Farrel was impressive - calm, great kicker, but can he get a backline going? I'd stick with him with Flood as backup. He's a work in progress & I don't see why he can't be coached to stand a bit flatter and feed the ball in front of people instead of behind them!

Centres as alway are a question for England, although I'm keeping Tuilagi! I know he's not the best passer in the world, but just for his impact he's well worth keeping. So, who at 12? Thing is, Barrit's been brilliant in terms of defence, but do we need a more creative IC? I have to say, I think we do. Farrell & Barrit together just won't work. So, who do you put in there? I personally can't think of an EQ IC who I'd currently replace him with - Anthony Allen, maybe? I'm not sure, but I think this is a problem.

Back three, full back is no problem, Foden with Brown as backup looks good to me. Wings are another question. Is Ashton just off form or is it the way England are playing? To me, he's still working hard, his defence is better and having seen him at his best, I think you persevere with him. Strettle's done nothing wrong & defensively has been excellent, so also stays, although I'd like to see Sharples & Wade (when fit) get a run out.

So, as you can see, all in ll I'm pretty happy with the makeup of the team, but I would have to admit, that's as much because I don't see any stand out challengers for positions as anything.

So, the challenge - this is a pretty good, but not great side. Who do you keep, who do you replace & most importantly, who out there is good enough to force their way in?

Good article mate, interesting to read your thoughts.

Regarding the England backline I wonder if actually it would work better with a decent outside centre and Tuilagi moved to the wing...?

Thanks Maesteg

I did wonder about that, but I must admit I do think he's a massive threat in the centre and should be offering opportunities for 10, 12 or his winger by pulling people in

I really think we need to stick with Tuilagi and barritt.

Its a new team and they are the first excellent centre base we've had for years....a new attack coach will improve the teams attacking ability.

I wouldnt change a huge amount going forward.

As i posted on another thread...we need to build a core of quality experienced players...so that when we do bring new younger players in they come in to a stable team...not bringing loads of new youngsters in to a brand new one...

I certainly don't disagree with that, Geordie & I wouldn't make wholesale changes.

I'm just a bit worried that we don't have a playmaker.

Aw i agree that offensively we are a massive work in progress and ongoing this must be addressed.

However they have done the right thing. They have layed the foundations.
Got the pack motoring. Got the defence not perfect but not far off.

As we move forward they can start to bring in more offensive ideas. A new attack coach will work wonders there i firmly believe...but little steps...

We have seen progression each game...and that what im looking for again against the Boks..

Why is Robshaw "certainly not better" than Wood? I tend to think Wood gets a higher rating by default as he's not playing internationally as bar the odd good performance he's not really done much.

wickedwasp wrote:Thanks Maesteg

I did wonder about that, but I must admit I do think he's a massive threat in the centre and should be offering opportunities for 10, 12 or his winger by pulling people in

He seems far too focused on getting forward momentum rather than offering up other players, he cant kick he isn't a game reader, but he is faster than he looks and he is a complete bull of a man.

I say put him on the wing like most of his brothers, give the center birth to a guy who will look to set him up in space.

Trouble is, if Tuilagi goes out on the wing, where is the outside centre to replace him?

As a Wasps fan, once I'd have said Waldouck but too many injuries.

This is my whole problem - I don't think the team is quite right, but who's putting their hand up?

13 is a position we have a depth of quality coming through.

JJ, May, Daley, Lowe....

maestegmafia wrote:

wickedwasp wrote:Thanks Maesteg

I did wonder about that, but I must admit I do think he's a massive threat in the centre and should be offering opportunities for 10, 12 or his winger by pulling people in

He seems far too focused on getting forward momentum rather than offering up other players, he cant kick he isn't a game reader, but he is faster than he looks and he is a complete bull of a man.

I say put him on the wing like most of his brothers, give the center birth to a guy who will look to set him up in space.

Wasnt that said of a certain Nonu for NZ...its called progression. Players improve. He has the skills and ability to work with.

Pooly

Fair comment. Wood definitely has it to prove I agree. Robshaw has stepped up big time and as I said, I'd keep him for his leadership alone.

JJ, May, Daley, Lowe.....

True, but do any of them offer that ability to break the line? Genuine question, as I haven't seen much of them although Lowe maybe?

maestegmafia wrote:Good article mate, interesting to read your thoughts.

Regarding the England backline I wonder if actually it would work better with a decent outside centre and Tuilagi moved to the wing...?

I'm not sure he's quite quick enough for that, though he is faster than he looks. He'll get better. As GeordieFalcon said, Nonu was just a crash ball player at first. Farrell had a good tournament but needs to improve his passing, and as that happens Tuilagi will start getting the ball more in space.

wickedwasp wrote:JJ, May, Daley, Lowe.....

True, but do any of them offer that ability to break the line? Genuine question, as I haven't seen much of them although Lowe maybe?

That depends what you mean by break. None of them are big carriers who are going to punch holes. They're all incredibly fast though.

Check out JJ's try at 1:09 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_4Cp9qn4Fg

...And May's at 2:25 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ynsObMv2Xw

Can't watch youtube here I'm afraid. I take your point, trouble is, is speed what you want from a 13? - there's not a lot of space - I've always tended to look for a bit of a monster there

wickedwasp wrote:Can't watch youtube here I'm afraid. I take your point, trouble is, is speed what you want from a 13? - there's not a lot of space - I've always tended to look for a bit of a monster there

Depends who you've got at 12. The tries I've linked to aren't just but speed though. Both show pretty amazing footwork to beat a number of defenders.

Could some of Farrell's inability to get the backline moving be down to it being a new back division?
He wasn't passing in front of the centres, but could that be a lack of timing between the 10 an 12?

Remember, Farrell started the tournament as a centre, and was only moved to 10 to cover CH's injury.
Maybe he had even less time in training as a FH than we're aware of.


The other thing is that on another thread, someone said that Barritt used to play FH when he was in South Africa.
This makes me believe that he can be more of a distributor than we're currently seeing.... if given time, and a suitable plan to work to.

I'd definitely accept that this team is still learning to play together & that is a factor. As I said, I think Farrell's young enough to improve.

I must admit, I didn't know that about Barritt - if true, maybe he just needs time in position.

In each game Farrell played flyhalf he kicked away 50% of ball he received.

That is the main reason our back 3 didn't get into play much for me. Farrell has many qualities but getting a backline going is not one of them. Flood is the best FH in England by a distance when on form as he has a mixture of qualities needed.

He threatens the line, offloads and gets the backs going. His goal kicking may not be at Farrell's level (sometimes it is) but he's a more rounded pivot.

Pooly

At his best I agree. However. Flood never looks good when we're under pressure, which worries me.

Number of points to be made here for me:

- England made more tackles than any other side in the 6Ns. Therefore, our defence was awesome as we came 2nd and that cannot be dismissed easily. Sound defence wins matches. Look at RWC winning teams and their defemces were all amazing. Farrell, Barritt, Tuilagi are a top defensive midfield.

- As England put in the most tackles this reflects that we did not enjoy forward dominance in most of the matches. Therefore backs playing off the back foot and no armchair rides. Not much quality quick ball to use. We all thought our front 5 looked under powered at the start of the 6Ns and that we needed an enforcer lock to help us out. Eng still need to improve in this area and get more possession and territory. That will provide a platform for the backs to perform. I don't think we can judge the attacking potential of the England side at this moment in time.

- It would help if we had a genuine 7. Robshaw is a 6 but until a proper 7 comes along he will remain there. Wood will have to battle with Croft for that 6 shirt.

- Dickson, Youngs and Care all have something to prove and I suspect it will be Youngs and Care that emerge from this battle.

- as a move from left field I would like to see SL bring Brian Ashton back in as attack coach. He was very successful in this role for Woodward and is a creative thinker.

I would definately love to see a partnership of Tuilagi and JJ.
I've seen JJ live and he has the skills I am sure to do well at international level. Mike Catt really rates him.

Why cant we move Tuilagi to 12 and JJ play at 13. One guy to scare the defence and draw the defenders en mass and another with the pace to expliot the gap. Sounds like a marriage made in heaven.

Can Tuilagi offload? I've not seen much evidence & that would be a prerequisite if you want to put him at 12.

I think we've got to keep the centres as they are at the moment. At least until the rest of the team has gained a little bit more cohesion. Once the team is a little more settled, guys who are putting their hands up can be looked at. I'd suggest Billy Twelvetrees might be a good shout. He was very good in the patches I saw of the LV Cup final. With a good season for Gloucester behind him, he could really be challenging.

At the end of the day I think we need to have at least three guys credibly challenging for each of the centre position... to allow for injuries an' that (picking the the best 2 in the EPS and the back ups in the Saxons).


12. Brad Barritt, Billy Twelvetrees, Jordan Turner-Hall and Anthony Allen
13. Manu Tuilagi, Henry Trinder, Jon Joseph and George Lowe

Cumbrian

Thanks - I'd forgotten 36. Might well be a possibility.

However, I do agree, I'm not suggesting change for the sake of it - as I said, somebody has to put their hand up for it

I think england have strength and depth in the front row, certainly plenty of good young props out there. I know we seem light on hookers but webber and mears are both good players and there are young lads coming through, I dont think there is any cause for concern.

Second row is a different matter. englands set piece is solid but i think it could still improve but also we lack serious ball carriers in the pack. None of the player currently involved are bad players but the sooner we look at the likes of attwood, lauchberry, garvey and kitchener the better.

the back row is a work in progress but i think the personnel are fine going forward. croft, robshaw, wood, morgan, dowson and haskell and perhaps calum clark as an option at 7. these guys should make up the squad for some time.

Half backs are a bit of a problem, particularly scrum half, there is simply no-one playing well enough to demand the shirt. youngs and care are the best but both seem to have temperment issues. fly half is ok actually farrell and flood compliment each other quite well as squad members and george ford is defo one to keep an eye on.

im quite happy with the centres and the back 3, solid defensively and i think the momentum needs to come from the pack first before we will see what these players can do in attack but all very capable IMO, would like to see Wade and May involved in the squad over the coming months

wicked - hmm, good point. England back 3 didnt see much of the ball against Ireland.
But, surely a good offloading game is a pre-requisite for both centers as much as anyone else in the modern game.
But, people constantly talk about JTH and he hasnt got the greatest pass!

Of course if you want the beast of all beasts at 12 theres always...James "the monster" fitzpatrick

On a serious note..Cumbrian i think you've got tha lst pretty right.

I think a good offload matters more at 12 to be honest. Admittedly, a 13 needs to look up & be able to pass & the jury's still out on Tuilagi there.

If your 12 can draw in the defenders and offload and you've got either pace or power at 13, it tends to give you lots of line breaks.

if you want a 12 to draw players and offload you should to banahan

HQ matt wrote:if you want a 12 to draw players and offload you should to banahan

Whilst i was joking about Fitzy...he is far superior a 12 than Banahan...playing the power role!

Matt

Wash your mouth out!

HQ matt wrote:I think england have strength and depth in the front row, certainly plenty of good young props out there. I know we seem light on hookers but webber and mears are both good players and there are young lads coming through, I dont think there is any cause for concern.

Second row is a different matter. englands set piece is solid but i think it could still improve but also we lack serious ball carriers in the pack. None of the player currently involved are bad players but the sooner we look at the likes of attwood, lauchberry, garvey and kitchener the better.

the back row is a work in progress but i think the personnel are fine going forward. croft, robshaw, wood, morgan, dowson and haskell and perhaps calum clark as an option at 7. these guys should make up the squad for some time.

Half backs are a bit of a problem, particularly scrum half, there is simply no-one playing well enough to demand the shirt. youngs and care are the best but both seem to have temperment issues. fly half is ok actually farrell and flood compliment each other quite well as squad members and george ford is defo one to keep an eye on.

im quite happy with the centres and the back 3, solid defensively and i think the momentum needs to come from the pack first before we will see what these players can do in attack but all very capable IMO, would like to see Wade and May involved in the squad over the coming months

True, but I would let Kitchener and Launchbury have another season with their clubs. Get some proper game time under their belts. For the carrying second rowers I’d be focusing on Attwood, Garvey, Lawes and Ed Slater for now.

it seems banahan has the attributes for the role but has never really looked comfortable there.

I think Englands biggest strength and weakness is Tuilagi. Strength being that he always breaks the gainline, and the first tackler is bounced away like a rag doll. But when he does get stopped by the 2nd and 3rd tackler he does not release the ball, and momentum is lost. I think Tuilagi has a bit of an arrogant mindset that he thinks he can break through everyone.

Once Tuilagi learns to trust and use his supporting players I would hope we would start to see our wingers scoring again. His current playing style is better suited on the wing.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Of course if you want the beast of all beasts at 12 theres always...James "the monster" fitzpatrick

On a serious note..Cumbrian i think you've got tha lst pretty right.

I think our impeding relegation is bad news for Fitzy because another season like this one and I reckon he could play his way onto the radar. Mind you, he is only 24, so plenty of time there. I'm hoping Deano can create a team that can get the best out of him, would be exciting to see him in a backline capable of playing.

lawes needs to work on his carrying and frankly his lineout too.
agreed with kitchener and lauchberry but they look promising.
attwood needs to be involved sooner rather than later.

HQ matt wrote:lawes needs to work on his carrying and frankly his lineout too.
agreed with kitchener and lauchberry but they look promising.
attwood needs to be involved sooner rather than later.

If Lawes could become a good lineout operator, we could have the best of both worlds IMO, pair him with a very good carrier and the second row could become an area of strength for England.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:In each game Farrell played flyhalf he kicked away 50% of ball he received.

That is the main reason our back 3 didn't get into play much for me. Farrell has many qualities but getting a backline going is not one of them. Flood is the best FH in England by a distance when on form as he has a mixture of qualities needed.

He threatens the line, offloads and gets the backs going. His goal kicking may not be at Farrell's level (sometimes it is) but he's a more rounded pivot.

As a Welshman I would love to see Farrell keep Flood on the bench or even better on the sofa. An on form Flood offers much more threat than Farrell, who has done well but will hold England back rather than take them forward. I look forward to drinking to his 100th cap.

He looks more like Rob Andrew than Jonny. I will always remember 93 when Wales won the championship despite losing at Twickers. England had to win by a certain margin, and battered us, but still couldn't score enough points with Andrew at 10. We sat and laughed at him he was so clueless. Farrell is cut from the same cloth IMO

Tuilagi does it for Leicester. He's played 3 games with the current 10 and 12. It will take time for the trust and understanding to develop. In terms of these games I think the whole team have probably been told to look after the ball and not to give away easy turnovers and intercepts. Look what happened in the Wales game and that was Tuilagi's first.

Give them time to gel as an attack. BTW am I misremembering things or were there a lot of complaints about the creativity of the Welsh midfield not so long ago? Also that JDavies can't tackle or pass? (and I'm talking about from Welsh posters). These things take time to come together and will only happen by players training and playing together for extended periods of time.

Back on topic, any idea how big the tour squad will be? This will be key in terms of deciding who's going. I presume it'll be gigger than the 32. If so then I'd take the whole EPS + extras. Guys like JJ, May, possibly Burns, Wood definately, Care, Garvey, etc

dragon

I think it's a bit too early to tell, to be honest. If he can't pick up his passing game then you're right, but I'd be prepared to give him a bit of time.

He's incredibly composed, good defence & kicks well & while that's not enough, it's something to build on. He's at Saracens with CH and can learn from him.

We'll see

if Lawes could become a good lineout operator, we could have the best of both worlds IMO, pair him with a very good carrier and the second row could become an area of strength for England.[/quote]

I agree with this, who would be your carrier?

HammerofThunor wrote:Tuilagi does it for Leicester. He's played 3 games with the current 10 and 12. It will take time for the trust and understanding to develop. In terms of these games I think the whole team have probably been told to look after the ball and not to give away easy turnovers and intercepts. Look what happened in the Wales game and that was Tuilagi's first.

Give them time to gel as an attack. BTW am I misremembering things or were there a lot of complaints about the creativity of the Welsh midfield not so long ago? Also that JDavies can't tackle or pass? (and I'm talking about from Welsh posters). These things take time to come together and will only happen by players training and playing together for extended periods of time.

Back on topic, any idea how big the tour squad will be? This will be key in terms of deciding who's going. I presume it'll be gigger than the 32. If so then I'd take the whole EPS + extras. Guys like JJ, May, possibly Burns, Wood definately, Care, Garvey, etc

This is all being discussed on the other thread Tour of SA 2012...

HQ matt wrote:if you want a 12 to draw players and offload you should to banahan

no

HQ matt wrote:if Lawes could become a good lineout operator, we could have the best of both worlds IMO, pair him with a very good carrier and the second row could become an area of strength for England.

HQ matt wrote: I agree with this, who would be your carrier?

I'm all for building depth personally. I like the look of a Matt Garvey and Geoff Parling pairing at the moment. Once Lawes gets fit and on form again, I would look at bringing him on the bench. I would also keep an eye on Attwood and Ed Slater to see how they are going.

I totally agree that Garvey should get a run out. We need a bit more dog

wickedwasp wrote:I totally agree that Garvey should get a run out. We need a bit more dog

Not only that, we need the intimidation factor back into playing England that we had back in 2003. We need the opposition and their supporters to be genuinely worried about facing our pack and want teams to realise that even if they beat us, they are going to have been in one hell of a game.

Can't argue with that, Cumbrian

Farrell’s game plan seems to only involve the centres, Flood has a track record of bringing the back 3 into the game. 2011 6N Eng were top try scorers (13, with Ashton 6); 2012 we’re 4th with 7 (1 of which was a penalty). Flood is our #1 with Farrell an excellent back-up. My particular concern is that SL sees the reverse.

Youngs on form is another source of attack, Dickson is just a safe pair of hands (usually).

Robshaw is a valiant type but just not quick enough. And didn’t we keep Moody in for his captaincy- that went well?! Wood (or even Haskell) is our current best bet. Not sure when Haskell is available but the harder ground in SA would suit him more than Morgan.

Hope we ‘rest’ Hartley (he might have already done that) because we are in desperate need of second hooker.

For SA we need a tough pack (slowly getting there), a defensive centre combo (job done) and a fast back 3 (ditto – if only we can use them).

I read the title "who are the keepers for England" and my initial reaction was: "all of them?"

This 6 Nations we saw a new team playing what was largely a limited game, and this was driven by necessity. The average age of the matchday squad was something ridiculous like 24 or 25, with Botha, Dowson and Stevens the only ‘seasoned’ bodies in there. Throw in the likes of Clark and Launchbury who’ve been given a run in the extended squad and you’re looking at, potentially, a side that is seriously packed with youth. In light of this, there is nothing to say that all of these guys couldn’t make the step up to become great, or even world class internationals.

For me, Lancaster’s squad selection has been spot on and – if anything – it’s the thing I’m least worried about. The challenge now is finding a style to get the most out of this group of players and bringing-on the team to achieve its potential.