OPENSIDE FLANKERS/7 Greatest XV Ever - voted by 606v2

Got some controversy and difficulty here- Obviously, as I have noted in my breakdown thread, different countries take different approaches to the 7 shirt, such as the different numbering in SAF and L and R flankers in some other sides, plus the role has changed a lot over the years! Thus there will definitely be overlap between the 6 and 7 candidates, but for Saffers etc could you please pick what I as a UK poster would call a 7 if possible? If you feel you should vote for 7s, I imagine most of the picks will be more modern but you can always vote in 6 and 7 for the two best flankers overall. Or maybe I should pick legendary back-row units? The back row is a complicated area to run this type of poll with as the players have to compliment each other!

As always, suggest players I have missed, but this could be a LONG list (not as long as 6 though!)

Btw, the 8 was clearly Zinzan Brooke

Too hard to answer my own poll... I'm going for McCaw because I've seen him play and he has been the best 7 in the World throughout my time playing rugby

Fergus Slatery...!

maestegmafia wrote:Fergus Slatery...!

Voted the greatest 7 ever to play for the Lions

Michael Jones.

You seem to have missed Chris Robshaw from the list?

Many thanks for including Haydn!He also played centre for the Lions when they were short.Hell of a guy.

thomh wrote:You seem to have missed Chris Robshaw from the list?

On a more serious note I did miss a couple of Islanders actually, oops.

Surely it's got to be Captain Tackles McCaw. The man who can do a "wheelie on a unicycle" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsOuBdkSL8U&feature=youtube_gdata_player

McCaw runs him close, but it's still unquestionably Jones.

I feel sorry for all those on here that never saw Michael jones play,especially if you are/were a loose forward.
Michael bought many talents to the number 7 (as in true openside flanker) position,Athleticism,speed ,balance,excellant handling skills.his speed to execute a tackle and regain his feet before the ball carrier hit the ground was 20 years ahead of his time,but his biggest talent was his instincts to anticipate the opposition attack and defensive lines,many New Zealand coaches coach the lines the "Iceman " ran,and luckily one of them was the coach of a young Richie McCaw.

Richard Hill should be on that list (sure he played blindside for most of his career, but he was a terrific openside, certainly better than some names on there - Warburton? Bonnaire?).

My vote goes to McCaw though, as I'm too young to have seen Michael Jones play.

Michael Jones. IMO the best player to lace up. Sorry Gareth...

McCaw is good enough to be given the job of cleaning Jones' boots

Chequered jersey
I see you say that you missed a couple of Islanders,presuming that you mean Pacific Islanders then relax because its not really a problem.
Michael Jones played his first test for Samoa against wales where he was introduced to the crowd as Tom Jones.

aucklandlaurie wrote: but his biggest talent was his instincts to anticipate the opposition attack and defensive lines,

That was so true Laurie. He was uncanny. Turned up in the most unlikeliest of places to flatten a move or ignite one. had a sense for the game I've never seen before or since.

As good as McCaw and many on the list are as players in the position all round Jones always for me. Again one of those in and around my age group in Auckland rugby and in a team of great players (JK, Foxy, Gallagher, Stanley, Shelford etc etc) stood out above them all in my experience and discussions/ media at the time. Even then there were two types of matches. One with Jones, and one without him.

These greatest ever lists are very subjective, firstly I only saw him play in the mid to late nineties and can't remember much of him, I saw Richie McCaw play and know he is good.

The nostalgia and fables we hold onto from players of yesteryear often make them greater than what they were. It is only natural as we tend to remember the positive things they have done mostly and their efforts tend to become super human.

I bet in another 15 years Richie McCaw will be hailed as the best ever.

The fact is when you compare different generations of players it is highly unlikely to be a fair comparison as the modern era provides us with "machined" athletes where as the older generation players did what they did mainly on talent.

If you were to say who is the greatest right now, even that becomes a subjective debate.

Perhaps these lists should just be "Who is world class at the moment"

McCaw, the best of this era
Rives, Winterbottom, Calder, the best I saw live.
Jones, the best ever.

Michael Jones...easy decision....

I believe it was Jiffy who called Jones the perpetual motion machine after we got spanked in 88. I agree with biltongn that nostalgia often wins out in thses polls but Jones would have fittedinto any international side today. His fitness and strength were unbelievable at the time and even today he would be considered one of the fittest and strongest in a team. Quite simply the best rugby player ever after Gareth imo.

Older Welsh fans - who was the regular No 7 during the 70s era? Was it Cobner? Or was he more of a blindside?

Obviously not enough people on here have seen Winterbottom play, the guy was outstanding. IMO he and Richard Hill are the 2 best players England has ever produced and the best in their positions the world has ever seen.

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:Obviously not enough people on here have seen Winterbottom play, the guy was outstanding. IMO he and Richard Hill are the 2 best players England has ever produced and the best in their positions the world has ever seen.

He got owned by Michael Jones on the '93 Lions tour.

That tour Winterbottom resorted to crying to the media about the All Blacks' rucking, showing off some scratches he's earned lying on top of the ball. Just a shame for him most of the AB's were earing similar battle scars.

I've voted for McCaw, the best cheat rugby has probably ever seen

Kiwireddevil wrote:

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:Obviously not enough people on here have seen Winterbottom play, the guy was outstanding. IMO he and Richard Hill are the 2 best players England has ever produced and the best in their positions the world has ever seen.

He got owned by Michael Jones on the '93 Lions tour.

That tour Winterbottom resorted to crying to the media about the All Blacks' rucking, showing off some scratches he's earned lying on top of the ball. Just a shame for him most of the AB's were earing similar battle scars.

Selective memory there Kiwi. The AB "rucking" was a disgrace and aimed at the face of players nowhere near the ball and Jones, although a great player himself couldn`t get anywhere near Winters.............legally that is!

Wondering why noone's calling Jones a cheat too.

Jones was just phenomenal. He's the equivalent of ice hockey's Mario Lemieux, the best player in the NHL (yes, including Gretzky) despite all those massive injuries. Add that to not playing on Sundays which took him out of 91 and 95 (well if he ate the chicken it wouldn't have mattered ) and jeepers his legacy would've taken some beating. Best player in the world in multiple positions too.

McCaw would be his replacement on Sundays though It's those two at the top of the tree for me.

Also would like to see Dave Gallaher mentioned, the original wing forward.

disneychilly wrote:Wondering why noone's calling Jones a cheat too.

Jones was just phenomenal. He's the equivalent of ice hockey's Mario Lemieux, the best player in the NHL (yes, including Gretzky) despite all those massive injuries. Add that to not playing on Sundays which took him out of 91 and 95 (well if he ate the chicken it wouldn't have mattered ) and jeepers his legacy would've taken some beating. Best player in the world in multiple positions too.

McCaw would be his replacement on Sundays though It's those two at the top of the tree for me.

Also would like to see Dave Gallaher mentioned, the original wing forward.

I figured nobody could have possibly seen him play

Ha good point Chequered. Emack may have been lol. Waiting for a Welshman to claim to have been there and say that Deans was in touch and Gallaher was bloody average

I saw Jones outplay Winterbottom in the 91 cup opener too (just backing you up KRD LOL)

The aura of Jones always tends to come up in these things. Like Richie mccaw his career cant be summed up in a few you tube videos in the way a lomu or shane williams might provide a glimpse of the players talent.

Like McCaw he hounded oppositions in a way they just couldnt cope but he had that extra athleticism that McCaw doesnt have. Then again, different eras and roles.

Jones is the type of player you had to live through to appreciate it- match after match he was the one to watch and I for one am one of the lucky ones to have seen him from a very young age.

I agree Biltong McCaw will be seen in that light in a few years and some will say why, what'd he do? When we know now oppostion teams and fans get completely frustrated and have done for years. Thats the sort of impact Jones had. And more. Its just a pity timing didnt see him against the boks at his best

I now have a problem in the next poll, because Jones is also definitely a contender for the best 6 of all time too, so if he wins this poll (not certain but likely) should I leave him in the next poll or is he already taken at 7? I suppose the aim of this is to look at the best players in specific positions not team so I should keep him in?

mr_stonelea wrote:Older Welsh fans - who was the regular No 7 during the 70s era? Was it Cobner? Or was he more of a blindside?

Cobner was the starting 7 on the 77 lions tour and played well that tour. Tony Neary I thought was good as well.

ChequeredJersey wrote:I now have a problem in the next poll, because Jones is also definitely a contender for the best 6 of all time too, so if he wins this poll (not certain but likely) should I leave him in the next poll or is he already taken at 7? I suppose the aim of this is to look at the best players in specific positions not team so I should keep him in?

Leave him out if he wins 7. Just means more discussion can go on about other players.

Richard Hill has already won the 6 shirt...

I can't possibly vote for Michael Jones as someone at work has that name and he is exceptionally irritating. I also can't go for Mccaw because although he is good I actually think Kronfeld was better.

Can anyone post the team so far? I've missed a few of them....

I love Kronfeld too (man NZ has been blessed in the 7 shirt) but feel McCaw edges it for his longevity, better scavenging (Kronfeld's support play when NZ was in possession was better IMO though) and leadership.

In that case I'd pick McCaw at 7 and Jones at 6. As good as Hill was I'd rather have Jones. Bit of a lovefest I know but I got to see him play at the peak of his powers and even for a kid you just saw he was everywhere.

Sadly I was at Athletic Park when his knee came off second best to the direction of the rest of his body. The hush was pretty striking that's for sure.

disneychilly wrote:I love Kronfeld too (man NZ has been blessed in the 7 shirt) but feel McCaw edges it for his longevity, better scavenging (Kronfeld's support play when NZ was in possession was better IMO though) and leadership.

In that case I'd pick McCaw at 7 and Jones at 6. As good as Hill was I'd rather have Jones. Bit of a lovefest I know but I got to see him play at the peak of his powers and even for a kid you just saw he was everywhere.

Sadly I was at Athletic Park when his knee came off second best to the direction of the rest of his body. The hush was pretty striking that's for sure.

7 is probably our strongest position (a list say from from 1956 onwards)
-Peter Jones
-Kel Tremain
-Ian Kirkpatrick
-Waka Nathan
-Graham Mourie
-Michael Jones
-Josh Kronfield
-Richie McCaw

Came across this list also:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/45889-greatest-ever-rugby-union-top-ten-flankers-of-all-time

has Jones at one and Pienaar at 2.

And another:
Kronfelds take on McCaws selection:

Although the then 20-year-old McCaw had only played seventeen matches for Canterbury, John Mitchell, the new All Black coach, selected him for the 2001 end of year tour to Ireland, Scotland and Argentina. This led Josh Kronfeld, a former All Black openside flanker, to criticise the selection: "You might as well just give All Black jerseys to everybody. The fact they picked guys off one NPC season is bloody incredible".

McCaw's debut international test was against Ireland at Lansdowne Road on 17 November 2001. His first touch of the game resulted in a knock on when he was hit in a tackle and New Zealand were trailing the Irish 16–7 at half-time. In the second half the All Blacks recovered to win 40–29 and McCaw was named man of the match, receiving a standing ovation at the post-match function.

Good one Kronfeld...

I went for Ruben Kruger, to me he was amazing.

Yeah late Ruben Kruger was the business, I am still convinced he scored a try in the 1995 RWC final.

Possibly one of the most under-rated players ever biltong. He was a good hard honest player. It was a sad day when he died.

He was quite an unassuming man, quiet hard working and immensely strong. He also wasn't the biggest guy, similarly built to Heinrich Brussow.

Always gave his all during any match he played.

Michael Jones walks it for me, with Francois Pineaar on the blindside, they pick themselves to be honest.

What about John Taylor? He could also take the goalkicks as well, like at Murrayfield in 1971.

Also what about the former Scottish No 7 Flanker David Leslie who played a vital role for Scotland during their 1984 Grand Slam season.

disneychilly wrote:Ha good point Chequered. Emack may have been lol. Waiting for a Welshman to claim to have been there and say that Deans was in touch and Gallaher was bloody average

I saw Jones outplay Winterbottom in the 91 cup opener too (just backing you up KRD LOL)

Deans grounded the ball short! it wasnt about being in touch, it was him wriggling to try and place the ball afterwards that caused the controversy a bit like Strettle really

As an aside I saw Winterbottom being outplayed on numerous occasions as well although he was a great player.

TycroesOsprey wrote:

disneychilly wrote:Ha good point Chequered. Emack may have been lol. Waiting for a Welshman to claim to have been there and say that Deans was in touch and Gallaher was bloody average

I saw Jones outplay Winterbottom in the 91 cup opener too (just backing you up KRD LOL)

Deans grounded the ball short! It wasnt about being in touch, it was him wriggling to try and stop the Welsh players dragging him back 5 yards before the referee caught up with the play that caused the controversy

Fixed that for you

Kiwireddevil wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:

disneychilly wrote:Ha good point Chequered. Emack may have been lol. Waiting for a Welshman to claim to have been there and say that Deans was in touch and Gallaher was bloody average

I saw Jones outplay Winterbottom in the 91 cup opener too (just backing you up KRD LOL)

Deans grounded the ball short! It wasnt about being in touch, it was him wriggling to try and stop the Welsh players dragging him back 5 yards before the referee caught up with the play that caused the controversy

Fixed that for you

The contrast of two perspectives.

Cheers TO, apologies I forgot it was that instead of the touch. But cheers to KRD for correcting that. I'm not 150 so can't recall too much of the details. If Scotland had've played us in 1924 the stink may have died down as that would have been NZ's first slam.

Speaking of that anyone remember that film Old Scores? I wish there were a digital copy somewhere. That cracked me up. Old Lucky...

Biltong Kruger was great too. But if he scored then the pass to Jonah with the line open was probably not forward Evened out in the end, but to be honest I'm sure you've watched that game more than I...