50 greatest fighters of all time

The link is from ESPN.

I'm not going to argue too much about the top 10 or even the list per se. the criteria used are:
In-ring Performance
Achievements
Dominance
Mainstream Appeal

Firstly how can you use mainstream appeal? Mainstream appeal would differ country by country. That's another story. But using that criteria...performance, achievement, dominance, how on earth can they rank LaMotta above Hagler for example?

Chavez should be ranked far higher using the above criteria.

http://boxing.about.com/od/history/a/50_greatest.htm

Thoughts?

Note that this isn't an old timer/post modernism boxer debate.

Eder Jofre is criminally low on that list. He should score heavily in every category except for ' mainstream appeal, ' and he only loses out then because he is Brazilian. Greb is also far too low, in my opinion.

I much prefer the IBRO top twenty.

HumanWindmill wrote:Eder Jofre is criminally low on that list. He should score heavily in every category except for ' mainstream appeal, ' and he only loses out then because he is Brazilian. Greb is also far too low, in my opinion.

I much prefer the IBRO top twenty.

I like Hearns, but I would rank Pernell above him every day of the week. And what on earth is RJJ doing so low down on the list.

It's a shocker, azania.

Pretty sure the names are the right ones, but the order stinks, for me. Look at the great fighters BELOW Jake LaMotta, for example.

Crazy.

Here's the IBRO top twenty :

1, Sugar Ray Robinson

2. Harry Greb

3. Henry Armstrong

4. Muhammad Ali (Tie)

4. Joe Louis (Tie)

6. Sam Langford

7. Roberto Duran

8. Benny Leonard

9. Willie Pep

10. Bob Fitzsimmons

11. Joe Gans

12. Ezzard Charles (Tie)

12. Sugar Ray Leonard (Tie)

14. Jimmy Wilde

15. Eder Jofre

16. Mickey Walker

17. Archie Moore

18. Jack Dempsey

19. Jack Johnson

20. Gene Tunney

Just missing the cut: Stanley Ketchel, Barbados Joe Walcott, Rocky Marciano, Tony Canzoneri, Barney Ross, Ike Williams, George Dixon, Sandy Saddler, Roy Jones Jr., and Larry Holmes.

Don't agree with all of those, either, ( Jofre too low AGAIN, for example, ) but it's a darned sight better than the one for which you've provided a link.

Charles below Frazier!? I'd have Ezz in the top 5.

I'd have SRL in any top 10. Hated the git, but respect wonderful talent. Also put Holmes in there. And Sandy Saddler. I wouldn't put Frazier in the top 50. Certainly not ahead of RJJ.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Charles below Frazier!? I'd have Ezz in the top 5.

No Bob Fitzsimmons either, John.

Daft.

Erik Morales at 49? He shouldn't be in the top 100. This is ATG we're talking about.

Mike Tyson ahead of James Jeffries seems odd to me too.

I really disagree.

Who wrote that list?

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Mike Tyson ahead of James Jeffries seems odd to me too.

Not to me. JJ didn't fight on HBO.

It's that "Mainstream Appeal " thing that's messing it up. If fame is a factor then Ali is #1 by a mile anyway.

azania wrote:

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Mike Tyson ahead of James Jeffries seems odd to me too.

Not to me. JJ didn't fight on HBO.

Just when we were agreeing on something, mate.

Seriously, though, Jeffries MUST be the most misunderstood and under rated champion, at any weight, in the entire history of boxing.

Irritates me beyond belief.

If we include ring entrances as a category for greatness then where's Naz?

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Mike Tyson ahead of James Jeffries seems odd to me too.

Not to me. JJ didn't fight on HBO.

Just when we were agreeing on something, mate.

Seriously, though, Jeffries MUST be the most misunderstood and under rated champion, at any weight, in the entire history of boxing.

Irritates me beyond belief.

I dont see how he could have been under rated seeing as they dragged him out of retirement as the great white hope. People must have rated him to imagine he could have beaten Johnson. I think Jack London did it for him.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:If we include ring entrances as a category for greatness then where's Naz?

Nothing beats this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maOkR-TwgYw&feature=fvst

Classic

azania wrote:I dont see how he could have been under rated seeing as they dragged him out of retirement as the great white hope. People must have rated him to imagine he could have beaten Johnson. I think Jack London did it for him.

He certainly wasn't under rated at the time, azania. That's what makes it such a shame that he's overlooked today. One third of his fights were against HOFers ; he was unbeaten and never off his feet till the Johnson debacle ; he still holds the record for the fastest kayo in lineal heavyweight history, as far as I know ; many of his peers or near peers, including Tommy Burns, Jack Dempsey, promoter Tex Rickard and others insisted he was the best heavyweight of the lot, ( Dempsey lived till 1983, don't forget, ) and yet today only hardcore fans know who he is.

azania wrote:

John Bloody Wayne wrote:If we include ring entrances as a category for greatness then where's Naz?

Nothing beats this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maOkR-TwgYw&feature=fvst

Classic

I remember watching that wanted it to happen after that ring walk.

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:I dont see how he could have been under rated seeing as they dragged him out of retirement as the great white hope. People must have rated him to imagine he could have beaten Johnson. I think Jack London did it for him.

He certainly wasn't under rated at the time, azania. That's what makes it such a shame that he's overlooked today. One third of his fights were against HOFers ; he was unbeaten and never off his feet till the Johnson debacle ; he still holds the record for the fastest kayo in lineal heavyweight history, as far as I know ; many of his peers or near peers, including Tommy Burns, Jack Dempsey, promoter Tex Rickard and others insisted he was the best heavyweight of the lot, ( Dempsey lived till 1983, don't forget, ) and yet today only hardcore fans know who he is.

Well he is tainted as a racist and as such PC over-rides what he did. As I said, Jack London did it for him. From what I read, he was awesome. But you obviously know better seeing as you saw him fight live.

Monzon at 45? Whitaker at 44? George Foreman at 20......Is the writer on glue?

Bob wrote:Monzon at 45? Whitaker at 44? George Foreman at 20......Is the writer on glue?

My thoughts exactly. I wouldn't put foreman so high. Certainly not ahead of Pernal and Monzon.

Are these 4 categories assumed to carry equal weight? If so then there are certainly some odd results thrown up. In some ways "dominance" and "acheivements" contradict themselves as dominance would imply ruling a division and acheivements would suggest moving across weights.

LaMotta has been identified already and Chavez, Hopkins. Greb and Jofre would appear to be criminally low on the basis of the criteria.

For instance I would score Chavez:

In-ring Performance: 8
Achievements: 9
Dominance: 9
Mainstream Appeal: 9

Total = 35

Hopkins:

In-ring Performance: 8
Achievements: 9
Dominance: 10
Mainstream Appeal: 4

Total = 31

Jake LaMotta:

In-ring Performance: 7
Achievements: 6
Dominance: 3
Mainstream Appeal: 9

Total = 25

Raging Bull did it for LaMotta

Certainly agree that Jeffries should be up there.

In-ring Performance: 9
Achievements: 9
Dominance: 9
Mainstream Appeal: 9

Total = 36

On the basis of the criteria I could only see Demsey, Ali and Louis rivaling Jeffries.

I've just read the list again and have noticed that Charley Burley doesn't make the cut. Granted, he might lose a point or three for ' mainstream appeal, ' since he never held a title, but ANY list of the fifty best fighters without Burley is absurd.

Wait till jeffrowley finds out.

D4thincarnation wrote:I really disagree.

Who wrote that list?

Not you, otherwise the top ten would read:

1. Manny Pacquiao
2. Erik Morales
3. Medgeon Singsurat
4. Rustico Torrecampo
5. Freddie Roach
6. Nonito Donaire
7. Amir Khan
8. Antonio Margarito
9. Joshua Clottey
10. Buboy Fernadez

FMJ 48? He must at least be top 30. Sandy Saddler 29 he is 3-1 against Willie Pep who is at a debateable 5 behind Louis and Armstrong which I can't agree with. Poorly put together list.

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:I really disagree.

Who wrote that list?

Not you, otherwise the top ten would read:

1. Manny Pacquiao
2. Erik Morales
3. Medgeon Singsurat
4. Rustico Torrecampo
5. Freddie Roach
6. Nonito Donaire
7. Amir Khan
8. Antonio Margarito
9. Joshua Clottey
10. Buboy Fernadez

You forgot Mosley, Sugar Boy.

You know, the reborn, Dorian Gray version.

prettyboy1304 wrote:FMJ 48? He must at least be top 30. Sandy Saddler 29 he is 3-1 against Willie Pep who is at a debateable 5 behind Louis and Armstrong which I can't agree with. Poorly put together list.

HumanWindmill wrote:

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:I really disagree.

Who wrote that list?

Not you, otherwise the top ten would read:

1. Manny Pacquiao
2. Erik Morales
3. Medgeon Singsurat
4. Rustico Torrecampo
5. Freddie Roach
6. Nonito Donaire
7. Amir Khan
8. Antonio Margarito
9. Joshua Clottey
10. Buboy Fernadez

You forgot Mosley, Sugar Boy.

You know, the reborn, Dorian Gray version.

Also you missed out the 'prime welterweight' de la Hoya that manny faced!

azania wrote:

prettyboy1304 wrote:FMJ 48? He must at least be top 30. Sandy Saddler 29 he is 3-1 against Willie Pep who is at a debateable 5 behind Louis and Armstrong which I can't agree with. Poorly put together list.

Take it the man who said Joe Calzaghe was Britains greatest ever fighter disagrees with me. What is it you disagree with?

HumanWindmill wrote:I've just read the list again and have noticed that Charley Burley doesn't make the cut. Granted, he might lose a point or three for ' mainstream appeal, ' since he never held a title, but ANY list of the fifty best fighters without Burley is absurd.

Wait till jeffrowley finds out.

Has Rowley seen this!?

prettyboy1304 wrote:

azania wrote:

prettyboy1304 wrote:FMJ 48? He must at least be top 30. Sandy Saddler 29 he is 3-1 against Willie Pep who is at a debateable 5 behind Louis and Armstrong which I can't agree with. Poorly put together list.

Take it the man who said Joe Calzaghe was Britains greatest ever fighter disagrees with me. What is it you disagree with?

There's another thread going on about Pep/Saddler and my views echo yours.

And JC is UK's #1

Jimmy Wilde, sir?

Benny Lynch?

Have to say that's a criminally bad list

imperialghosty wrote:Have to say that's a criminally bad list

Would like to know who helped put it together because their boxing team on ESPN are very good and knowledgeable. Brian Kenny, Teddy Atlas and Dan Rafael who runs the boxing page on their website are very good although Atlas can talk a bit to much. Bert Sugar also used to make programmes for ESPN their have been a few on classic lately. Can't see it being them probably done through a computer like boxrec.

prettyboy1304 wrote:

imperialghosty wrote:Have to say that's a criminally bad list

Would like to know who helped put it together because their boxing team on ESPN are very good and knowledgeable. Brian Kenny, Teddy Atlas and Dan Rafael who runs the boxing page on their website are very good although Atlas can talk a bit to much. Bert Sugar also used to make programmes for ESPN their have been a few on classic lately. Can't see it being them probably done through a computer like boxrec.

Dont know much about Dan Rafael, but Atlas and Kenny just annoy me too much.

azania wrote:

prettyboy1304 wrote:

imperialghosty wrote:Have to say that's a criminally bad list

Would like to know who helped put it together because their boxing team on ESPN are very good and knowledgeable. Brian Kenny, Teddy Atlas and Dan Rafael who runs the boxing page on their website are very good although Atlas can talk a bit to much. Bert Sugar also used to make programmes for ESPN their have been a few on classic lately. Can't see it being them probably done through a computer like boxrec.

Dont know much about Dan Rafael, but Atlas and Kenny just annoy me too much.

They are very knowledgeable though. Rafaels alright the ESPN website is a very good one.

Kenny seems to gave issues with Floyd and Atlas just talks too much.

Yeah Kenny does Floyd hates him and they've had it out on air a few times because Kenny has asked him some questions he doesn't like. Kenny doesn't like Floyd as a person that is obvious and I think he would love to see him get KOd or just lose his 0. Sometimes it clouds his judgement when it comes to FMJ. He's a decent host though their have been a view programmes on ESPN classic lately that were good but he just hosts doesn't really have an opinion.