Lewis or Vitali?

First topic message reminder :

I was reading another post there by onetwoforever about Lewis being an all time great he makes a very good point about the fight with Vitali. Not many people knew how good Vitali was when Lewis fought him and Lwis was expected to win easily beacuase he was a class above. So Lewis got very little credit for winning the fight even though he smashed Vitali up completely no other heavyweight has come close to doing that. Vitali became a great champ afte rLewis retired and now people know how good he was so Lewis should get more credit for that win. Imo Lewis is the second best of all time only Ali is better but some people do not have Lewis number 2 so maybe he desrves higher from those people for beating Vitali he was also at his worst that night and not in peak condition he had to take the fight at very short notice so the win showed his class to be able to beat a guy like Vitali when he was at his worst.

But I was shocked to see people that think Vitali would have won that fight if it had not been stopped did you see the guys face?? He was getting completely smashed up he was very lucky the ref stopped it or Lewis would have knocked him out he was coming on much stronger than Vitali who was starting to struggle.

The ref was spot on to stop that fight those cuts were the worst I have seen Vitalis career could have been over if it was stopped but imagine the fight was not stopped who do people think would have won? Me? I reckon Lewis would have knocked him out soon after he was coming on strong and catching Vitali with to many big shots the guy needed 60 stitches this shows how badly he was getting smashed.

superflyweight wrote:

He also trains Wlad who is Vitalis brother.

My favourite post of all time!

brilliant...there's certainly been more chuckles about since waingro came along - along with a fair bit of head holding

milkyboy wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

He also trains Wlad who is Vitalis brother.

My favourite post of all time!

brilliant...there's certainly been more chuckles about since waingro came along - along with a fair bit of head holding

We are just taking our lead from our noble government. Holding Waingros head underwater isn't torture - its waterboarding which is technically different from torture. God save the Queen (From Waingro)

What a tonic these last few posts are. Genuinely funny, and the perfect antidote to the endless stream of unpunctuated, simplistic nonsense which they lampoon.

manos de piedra wrote:Vitali was winning the fight up to the point of the stoppage. That is what the stats are supporting. You can argue they mean little by way of the final result, or on what might have happened - which I would agree with. But to suggest the stats somehow indicate Lewis was having the better of the fight is not true as far as I am concerned. The fight itself as supported by the stats and the judges cards would clearly show Vitali was having the better of the fight up until the point of stoppage. I am not arguing that Vitali would have won, or that the win was not legit. I am merely disputing the fact that the stats suggest Lewis was having the better of the fight.

i agree 100% with you.

The punch stats show that Lewis was landing the cleaner punches, Vitali threw alot of punches but Lewis was making him miss and this is why he was coming on stronger because Vitali was tiring from missing too much.

Waingro wrote:The punch stats show that Lewis was landing the cleaner punches, Vitali threw alot of punches but Lewis was making him miss and this is why he was coming on stronger because Vitali was tiring from missing too much.

The punch stats show Vitali landed more punches in every single round. Vitali landed 60% MORE power shots than Lewis. That is a lot more power shots. Whatever way you try to spin it Vitali landed more jabs and more power shots in every round.

Watching the fight as I have, Lewis was landing the cleaner punches, the statistics make it appear more one sided than it actually was.

Vitali was throwing more punches he was punching himslef out this is because Lewis was making him miss and landing the cleaner shots so imo the stats show Lewis was doing better by making Vitali throw and miss alot and being more accuate with his own shots which lets be honest were destroying Vitali. Just look at his face he needed 60 stitches.

Waingro wrote:Vitali was throwing more punches he was punching himslef out this is because Lewis was making him miss and landing the cleaner shots so imo the stats show Lewis was doing better by making Vitali throw and miss alot and being more accuate with his own shots which lets be honest were destroying Vitali. Just look at his face he needed 60 stitches.

How can you suggest Vitali was punching himself out when in the 6th and final round he was still throwing more punches than Lewis and landing more punches? Makes no sense to try and argue he was exhausted etc when he could throw more punches and land more punches.

fact is Vitali landed more punches and was ahead on ALL 3 of the judges scorecards. It´s quite clear that Vitali was winning the fight upto round 6.

I was going to rubbish waingro's post until i rechecked the stats...

Punchstats Total Punches
Lewis Klitschko
Landed 102 156
Thrown 222 432
Pct. 46% 36%
Jabs Lewis Klitschko
Landed 52 77
Thrown 120 240
Pct. 43% 32%
Power Punches
Lewis Klitschko
Landed 50 79
Thrown 102 192
Pct. 49% 41%
clean punches landed: Lewis 20 klitschko 5
dirty punches landed: Lewis 1 klitschko 20
really filthy punches landed: Lewis 0 klitschko 5

lovely_london wrote:

Waingro wrote:Vitali was throwing more punches he was punching himslef out this is because Lewis was making him miss and landing the cleaner shots so imo the stats show Lewis was doing better by making Vitali throw and miss alot and being more accuate with his own shots which lets be honest were destroying Vitali. Just look at his face he needed 60 stitches.

How can you suggest Vitali was punching himself out when in the 6th and final round he was still throwing more punches than Lewis and landing more punches? Makes no sense to try and argue he was exhausted etc when he could throw more punches and land more punches.

fact is Vitali landed more punches and was ahead on ALL 3 of the judges scorecards. It´s quite clear that Vitali was winning the fight upto round 6.

I had the fight level so I do not think Vitali was winning yes he was throwing more punches but he was missing a huge amount this was down to Lewis skill at making Vitali hit and miss. Lewis was coming on alot stronger before it was stopped this shows Vitali was tiring he was punching himself out Lewis was a much smarter fighter who was conserving his energy, making Vitali miss and doing the cleaner work he was starting to get on top in the fight and probably would have stopped Vitali in the next round or two.

milkyboy wrote:I was going to rubbish waingro's post until i rechecked the stats...

Punchstats Total Punches
Lewis Klitschko
Landed 102 156
Thrown 222 432
Pct. 46% 36%
Jabs Lewis Klitschko
Landed 52 77
Thrown 120 240
Pct. 43% 32%
Power Punches
Lewis Klitschko
Landed 50 79
Thrown 102 192
Pct. 49% 41%
clean punches landed: Lewis 20 klitschko 5
dirty punches landed: Lewis 1 klitschko 20
really filthy punches landed: Lewis 0 klitschko 5

People like Klitschko have no consideration for others - why cant they wash their gloves before they punch people eh?

Lennox Lewis W TKO Rnd Six vs Vitali Klichco - No other stat really matters.

if the ref didn't sop it his corner would at some point

rowley wrote:Lennox Lewis W TKO Rnd Six vs Vitali Klichco - No other stat really matters.

This is true but my question was about what peoples opinions were if the cut had not happened some people were saying Vitali would win but looks like most people think Lewis would have won by knock out which i agree with. Lewis was doing the cleaner work and coming on the stronger so it would not have been long before he knocked Vitali out he just had to much skill for Vitali.

Waingro wrote:

lovely_london wrote:

Waingro wrote:Vitali was throwing more punches he was punching himslef out this is because Lewis was making him miss and landing the cleaner shots so imo the stats show Lewis was doing better by making Vitali throw and miss alot and being more accuate with his own shots which lets be honest were destroying Vitali. Just look at his face he needed 60 stitches.

How can you suggest Vitali was punching himself out when in the 6th and final round he was still throwing more punches than Lewis and landing more punches? Makes no sense to try and argue he was exhausted etc when he could throw more punches and land more punches.

fact is Vitali landed more punches and was ahead on ALL 3 of the judges scorecards. It´s quite clear that Vitali was winning the fight upto round 6.

I had the fight level so I do not think Vitali was winning yes he was throwing more punches but he was missing a huge amount this was down to Lewis skill at making Vitali hit and miss. Lewis was coming on alot stronger before it was stopped this shows Vitali was tiring he was punching himself out Lewis was a much smarter fighter who was conserving his energy, making Vitali miss and doing the cleaner work he was starting to get on top in the fight and probably would have stopped Vitali in the next round or two.

all 3 judges had vitali winning by 2 rounds.

What judges think can be largely irrelevant, the only way of basing an opinion is by watching the fight. Scorecards and statisitics are no replacement for that.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:What judges think can be largely irrelevant, the only way of basing an opinion is by watching the fight. Scorecards and statisitics are no replacement for that.

But Vitali was clearly winning the fight. Landed more jabs landed more power punches and was ahead on the judges scorecards and most people think Vitali was ahead in that fight. Rounds 1-4 go to vitali in my eyes and rounds 5 and 6 are either way.

Vitali was clearly winning the fight up to round 6.

Statistically he may appear to have been winning clearly but I only had one round in at the time of the stoppage not what I would personally call someone winning clearly, you appear hung up on the statistics rather than the actual fight.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Statistically he may appear to have been winning clearly but I only had one round in at the time of the stoppage not what I would personally call someone winning clearly, you appear hung up on the statistics rather than the actual fight.

it's hard for you to argue lewis was winning the fight when he received more punches including power punches (Klitschko landed over 60 more power punches) and all 3 judges had lewis down as losing.

Fair enough your opinion is lewis was winning or whatever you think but I am happy that I believe klitschko was clearly winning and I believe this because he landed more jabs and more power punches and he had all 3 judges think he was winning.

Again basing it purely on compubox and the scorecards, neither of which are available as you're watching a fight.

Having watched the fight several time (its been one of the few half decent heavyweight contests this millenium) , I think it a fair point that the punch statistics as well as the judges cards were a reasonably fair reflection of the fight up until the stoppage. Occasionaly judges cards or punch statistics can distort the truth but in this fight I dont believe they do. They were reasonably in line with what I saw in the fight. Vitali was winning and the stats and judges would support this.

Colonial Lion wrote:Having watched the fight several time (its been one of the few half decent heavyweight contests this millenium) , I think it a fair point that the punch statistics as well as the judges cards were a reasonably fair reflection of the fight up until the stoppage. Occasionaly judges cards or punch statistics can distort the truth but in this fight I dont believe they do. They were reasonably in line with what I saw in the fight. Vitali was winning and the stats and judges would support this.

Do you base on opinion on them though? I would say a definitive no, you watch a fight with an open mind and think that the perception of this fight is well out of line with what i've seen, Vitali was slightly ahead but he wasn't by any means dominating or on his way towards victory.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

Colonial Lion wrote:Having watched the fight several time (its been one of the few half decent heavyweight contests this millenium) , I think it a fair point that the punch statistics as well as the judges cards were a reasonably fair reflection of the fight up until the stoppage. Occasionaly judges cards or punch statistics can distort the truth but in this fight I dont believe they do. They were reasonably in line with what I saw in the fight. Vitali was winning and the stats and judges would support this.

Do you base on opinion on them though? I would say a definitive no, you watch a fight with an open mind and think that the perception of this fight is well out of line with what i've seen, Vitali was slightly ahead but he wasn't by any means dominating or on his way towards victory.

I wouldnt say Vitali was dominating by any means. The fight was competitive all the way the through. But I think only the most loyal Lewis fans would try to make an argument for Lewis being ahead. So in that sense I would say Vitali was clearly winning the fight. Be it by three rounds, two rounds or one round. I wouldnt have thought there was any real ambiguity about who was wining the fight. And I believe in this instance the judges cards and the statistics would tend to support the fight as I saw it.

As for statistics I think it depends. If I havent watched fight, and was only given statstics to go off. Provided they were not heavily in favour of one fighter or another I would decline to place to much emphasis on them. A fighter can have a huge first round and land a huge number of shots but have subsequent poor rounds that the statistics would then disguise. But if , for arguments sake, I was handed stats of each round and in almost every round one fighter was outlanding the other then I suppose I would have to take that on board at least as relevant information, if not outright conclusiveness.

Judges cards are different. They can be wrong or misleading of course but if I hadny seen a fight and only seen the result of the cards then I would have more faith in them. Especially if they were all unanimous in agreement by the same or similar score. I dont think I would question them too heavily. Although there are times when the cards can be misleading, I think in general they are a solid enough to form a conclusion.

Obviously watching the fight oneself and forming a firsthand opinion is the best source though. While I would certainly agree that judges get it wrong or stats can mislead, the Klitschko versus Lewis contest would not really be an example of this in my own view. I think having watched the fight firsthand, the judges cards and stats would validate what I saw for the most part. Something like the more recent Ward versus Froch fight might be an example where the cards did Ward an injustice in a fight I thought he won with alot more decisiveness than the judges credited him with.

Personally think compubox is meaningless, the only useful way of coming to an opinion is watching a fight, whether the scorecards or stats back up a certain fight they are so often wrong or misleading to render them useless.