England's greatest test XI

First topic message reminder :

we have done the aussies, now what do you think is england's greatest test xi...this is mine:

1.Len Hutton (cook, and trescohthick very close)
2.Graham Gooch
3.Wally Hammond
4.Ken Barrington
5.Kevin Piersten (gregers dont moan look at his test record, and his overall stats)
6.Ian Botham
7.Alan Knott
8.Fred Trueman
9.Graeme Swann
10.Derek Underwood
11.Bob Willis

Such was OK. Did a job whenever asked, and was a genuine wicket-taker on helpful pitches. Not in Swann's class, or even Monty's, but a more than decent option at the time.

Agree about Such - I think to some extent he was picked as the best of a bad lot for a while.

Interesting comments on Lathwell in particular - you may be right that the recent approach of England selection of giving players a number of games before the pressure came on might have suited him better than the rather more inconsistent selection policies of the time. Arguable that this, along with the emphasis on Gooch-esque physical training, failed to get the best out of a few talented players and shortened the career of some others (Gower being the obvious one, but also Robin Smith was discarded prematurely in my opinion).
There also appeared to be some favouritism in the selection policies, in that some players (and there was always the perception that County allegiances influenced this) were given multiple opportunities while others with perhaps better County records (for less fashionable Counties, such as Somerset, Glamorgan, Yorkshire at the time etc) were given one chance of maybe a couple of games before being discarded.

Your suggestion that Ramprakash was lacking upstairs also raises the interesting question of whether he'd have been a more successful Test player had he come into the side a little later and not suffered the baptism of fire he (and Hick) did against the West Indies - Ramps battled hard in his first few innings but had little to show for it (iirc, he scored a battling 20-odd first time up, and that was about his best for the series), and perhaps that eroded his confidence and the self-belief that he could be a successful Test player. A start against (say) New Zealand and a couple of bigger scores might have made a big difference.

My comparison of Bicknell and Ramps was more on the simple basis that both shone at County level throughout long careers, but never looked like world beaters at international level. You may be right about Bicknell's pace and length, but was he much different to Andy Caddick or Hoggard? And of course Glenn McGrath was hardly noted for beating batsmen for pure pace, but his Test career was sort of OK-ish.

Oh, and to come back to Peter Such - perhaps some of the issues are that he never looked like a top class sportsman, despite being a somewhat effective bowler. As a batsman and fielder he always looked clumsy and uncoordinated, moreso than even the likes of Tuffers or Monty.

As an aside, my wife bought me a little book about the Ashes, which includes (amongst other things) a number of quotes made by or about various players. One being Ian Chappell's comment on Tuffers, saying ' the other advantage for England of having Tuffnell bowling is that they don't have him fielding'.

Caddick had much more pace and height than Bicknell. Hoggard also had a bit more pace, and bowled about a yard shorter. Mike's point is that Bicknell's natural length tended to be a bit "floaty" at his pace. I'm not sure I agree with him (a more pertinent comparison would be Mohammad Asif - bowls about 78mph pretty full), but I see where he's coming from.

McGrath and Asif were a lot more accurate than Bicknell ever was.

That's the main difference.

Stella wrote:McGrath and Asif were a lot more accurate than Bicknell ever was.

That's the main difference.

They also had a natural length which was a yard shorter for Asif and 2 yards for McGrath. They also hit the pitch with more venom (possibly because they were taller?).

As MfC points out, Hoggard and Caddick all bowled a fair bit quicker (and slightly shorter): indeed in Hoggard's case it is interesting that when he lost a yard of pace he took 1-100odd and immediately (some say unfairly, I say ruthlessly) got dropped.

Such was a decent spinner, but never international class. Tuffnell was of course a better bowler (another one who was mis-managed, but in his case he has to take a fair amount of the blame).

MfC
I remember Vaughan making the point that Caddick also got a bit floaty when he pitched up, which is why I gave him as a comparison.

Hoggard had spells in his career when his stock ball was about 80mph (he did get up to 85mph or so when in a good rhythm), so wasn't exactly in a different ballpark. If anything he sometimes got criticised for bowling a little too short and not maximising the swing that was there.

Accuracy is a different issue, and yes at Bicknell's pace the margin for error against Test quality batsmen was narrow. It was probably this, rather than pure pace, that was the reason for his Test career never quite taking off.

It's a good point dummy, I think it's Nasser who in his autobiography ("Playing with Fire" - a cracking read IMO) says that Caddick was always at his happiest just bowling his "natural" length, and hence in team discussions on the board would always be written "Caddick bowl Caddick length".

Tuffers was a better spinner than Such, but never thrived at international level (partly his fault, partly the environment) the way he did for Middlesex. Neither was helped by the fact they couldn't bat or field (whereas someone like Croft offered a few runs for instance).

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

Stella wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:Has anyone got the BBC Video of the great Richie Benaud's finest selection of England's best players to have played since the second world war ? It has the following list of players selected by the great man himself :-

(OPENERS)
Graham Gooch
Geoff Boycott

(MIDDLE ORDER BATTERS)
David Gower
Allan Lamb
Mike Gatting

(ALL-ROUNDER)
Ian Botham

(KEEPER)
Alan Knott

(SPINNERS)
Jim Laker
Derek Underwood

(FAST BOWLERS)
Fred Trueman
John Snow
Bob Willis

(12th MAN)
Derek Randall

Was he drunk when he picked that middle order?

Must have been.
No May, no Barrington, no Dexter, no Compton???

That is because the BBC couldn't find any/enough quality footage of these excellent English batsmen which would have helped to sell this BBC Video Tape. Fair enough about someone like Compton who played most of his cricket between 1930 - 1950, but for someone like a Dexter or a Barrington, there can be no such excuses made for not considering that someone like Fred Trueman made it onto this Best of England Selection Team.

Stella wrote:Thorpe made his debut in 1993 and made a ton, so it wan't all bad.

Fair enough it wasn't all doom and gloom that particular test series in comparison to the 1989 test series in which England were a complete shambles right through that series especially in the batting department where guys like Tim Curtis, John Stephenson were given England test caps.

I thought Benaud was on record as saying that May was finest English batsman since WWII. It would be incredible to pick Gatting and Lamb in preference to May and Barrington....

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:I thought Benaud was on record as saying that May was finest English batsman since WWII. It would be incredible to pick Gatting and Lamb in preference to May and Barrington....

Like I said before, I believe that this Best of England Team Selection made by Richie Benaud in this video was flawed as it was based mainly on whether enough quality footage was available, which is why there is a heavy bias towards including players post the 1970's onwards such as Lamb and Gatting rather than including any of the very fine players who played for England pre the 1960's such as Graveney, Cowdrey, May, Hammond, Compton, Sutcliffe, Hobbs, Hutton.

GBoycs - I agree your explanation is by far the most likely. The other possibility is he did it for a joke to see if anyone complained....

My two-pennerth

From the historical stats:

Hobbs
Hutton
Sutcliffe
Hammond
Barrington
Grieg
Knott
Barnes
Trueman
Larwood
Laker


From my time watching:

Gooch
Cook
Gower
Pietersen
Thorpe
Stewart
Flintoff
Botham
Swann
Willis
Underwood

Can we relegate Pietersen from the Best Evers now?

kwinigolfer wrote:Can we relegate Pietersen from the Best Evers now?

Cruel.

Bu fair to say the last two matches haven't enhanced his reputation

It's a lean couple of Tests, happens to everyone. Ricky Ponting had a shocking 18 months or so, nobody relegated him from anything.

Fists of Fury wrote:It's a lean couple of Tests, happens to everyone. Ricky Ponting had a shocking 18 months or so, nobody relegated him from anything.

Fists - agreed. However, I don't see Morgan making anyone's All Time England XI for a while!

correct.

Now that England have suffered 2 horrendous batting collapses in a 2 consecutive test matches against what is an average Pakistan team, the greatest England XI to take on this current Pakistan Test XI is as follows :-

1 Jack Hobbs
2 Herbert Sutcliffe
3 Wally Hammond
4 Peter May
5 Denis Compton
6 Ken Barrington
7 Ian Botham
8 Alan Knott
9 Jim Laker
10 Fred Trueman
11 Sid Barnes

I included Compton rather than Hutton as Compton was a better player of spin bowling than Hutton was with his trademark sweep shot to spinners. Would have been very interesting to see Compton try this favourite shot of his against the Pak spinner Ajmal.

yh the doosra would probably go past the outside edge, and he would miss the ball completely!