Regional attendances so far this season

First topic message reminder :

Righty, I nabbed this off the ScarletsFever forum, because I was too lazy to work out the average attendances for myself:

Blues: 4,847, 5,466, 8,198, 6,913, 10,358, 4,557. Total: 40,339. Average: 6,723.16
Dragons: 4,197, 4,554, 4,646, 5,160. Total: 18,557. Average: 4,639.25
Ospreys: 5,424, 5,179, 5,590, 5,726, 4,463, 12,332, 7,732. Total: 46,446. Average: 6,635.14
Scarlets: 6,493, 8,823, 6,188, 6,314, 7,075, 7,860, 7,950. Total: 50,703. Average: 7,243.28


Interesting to note that despite both the Blues and O's having one set of attendaces over 10K, that the Scarlets still have a better average. Also results are a bit scewed for the Dragons due to one of their home games being rained off, and also the development of a new stand.

Just wondering what fans from respective regions thought?

As a Scarlet I'm quite happy, especially as we have yet to play Munster and Saints at home in the Heineken, or the O's and Blues in the Pro12 and we are guaranteed really big crowds for all of them. Would love to see our average go over 8K this season. The only really disappointing game was the one against Castres (7860), as that was about 1,000 down on our crowd for Perpignan last season.

rugbydreamer wrote:Agree with you completely Stag.

PyS isn't difficult to get to either, and they run a great parc and ride service to it throughout Llanelli (although it would be helpful if they put the timetable up on the website!) Rodney Parade is a short walk from the stadium. THe O's have parking facilities (same as PyS) a short walk from the stadium, and they have a park and ride from the train station to.

Aslo from a Scarlet perspective, we are currently trying really hard to get away from the Llanelli link. We no longer have free tickets to see Llanelli RFC play in with the Scarlets season ticket package. We are also utilising our other feeder clubs better this season. Tis no coincidence that Llandovery are top of the welsh premiership at the moment. We are splitting the talent between Llanelli, Llandovery and even the Quins now, which is exactly as it should be.

the park and ride service doesn't run anymore, which is why there's no timetable. (not the one from Stradey school anyway)

Put it this way, it's 'more' difficult to get to than Stradey Park was, and yes people are using it as an excuse, so there must be something in it.


And this 'trying to get away from the Llanelli link' gets my goat, yes, it's a region, yes we should cater for fans from outside of Llanelli, but never forget where the core supporters are based.
And just what has the 'Llanelli RFC free ticket package' got to do with utilising our other feeder clubs?
And also, they've been splitting the talent between the clubs for years, not just 'now'.
Weird post from you TBH, seems like you're pandering to someone

I live in Wales but my nearest region is over four hours away

Cymroglan wrote:I live in Wales but my nearest region is over four hours away

your posts are like Groundhog Day to be honest. Hey, you could always move south.

He shouldn't have to move.

It does Tursketer, I get the parc and ride from the train station nearly every time i go to Y Parc. It goes every half hour I think (so like 1:30, 2:00 etc).

Yes we've been splitting players between the clubs but not equally, we've always favoured Llanelli, that's only started to change in the last couple of seasons.
I never said the llanelli free ticket package was anythign to do with utilising the feeder clubs, I said getting rid of it was a way of seperating the link more between Llanelli and Scarlets.
And yeah sure we've got a great core base in Llanelli, we've also got a bunch of small minded people in Llanelli who also refuse to go to PyS because it's not Stradey. The Scarlets do a load of good work in Llanelli, and long may that continue, but they shouldn't forget the support they get outside of the town. They are really starting to work on that, they get bus loads of fans from much further out in West Wales now, and we need to keep working on that to get crowds to improve.

And not sure how I'm pandering to anyone?

I love the fact that the Scarlets are trying to do more things then just in the Llanelli area. I'm not from Llanelli, I don't relate to Llanelli, but I relate to the Scarlets. THe more they do to embrace the whole region, not just the town, the happier I am, and there's a heck of a lot of fans just like me in the Scarlets region who think the same.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:He shouldn't have to move.

normally I'd agree with you, but he's been on here before saying he thinks one of the 4 current Regions should be disbanded and then relocated to North Wales, I can see that going down like a lead balloon.

Cymroglan wrote:I live in Wales but my nearest region is over four hours away

Ummm, supports Connacht and lives in Belgium. He travels 18 hours to a 'home' match.

Maybe he has, Turkster, but today all he's done is state a fact.

How about linking the sale of tickets for Wales at the MS with sale of tickets to the regions.

So perhaps every season ticket holder is guaranteed a ticket for each game.
If you attend on an adhoc basis then for every 3/4 matches you attend you are eligible to but one international ticket.

Would this reduce the number of blondes in pink cowboyhats at the MS though?

Turkster wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:I live in Wales but my nearest region is over four hours away

your posts are like Groundhog Day to be honest. Hey, you could always move south.

And that attitude was shared by the WRU fortunately Gatland has more vision.

Cymroglan wrote:I live in Wales but my nearest region is over four hours away

Luck of the draw my friend. If you live in Donegal in Ireland, you are 4 hours from Connachts games and nearly 3 hours from Ulsters ones. It would take about 7 hours to get to Munster and about 9 to get to Leinster.

Cymroglan wrote:I live in Wales but my nearest region is over four hours away

Which region is supposed to represent the North? Can't they play alternate games in Wrexham or somewhere?

Failing that you could always just start supporting Sale

No Stag it's not luck of the draw it's just poor vision by the WRU when they set up the regions in the first place.
Common sense dictates that you cant ignore a third of the population especially in a small country like Wales.

rugbydreamer wrote:It does Tursketer, I get the parc and ride from the train station nearly every time i go to Y Parc. It goes every half hour I think (so like 1:30, 2:00 etc).

Yes we've been splitting players between the clubs but not equally, we've always favoured Llanelli, that's only started to change in the last couple of seasons.
I never said the llanelli free ticket package was anythign to do with utilising the feeder clubs, I said getting rid of it was a way of seperating the link more between Llanelli and Scarlets.
And yeah sure we've got a great core base in Llanelli, we've also got a bunch of small minded people in Llanelli who also refuse to go to PyS because it's not Stradey. The Scarlets do a load of good work in Llanelli, and long may that continue, but they shouldn't forget the support they get outside of the town. They are really starting to work on that, they get bus loads of fans from much further out in West Wales now, and we need to keep working on that to get crowds to improve.

And not sure how I'm pandering to anyone?

I love the fact that the Scarlets are trying to do more things then just in the Llanelli area. I'm not from Llanelli, I don't relate to Llanelli, but I relate to the Scarlets. THe more they do to embrace the whole region, not just the town, the happier I am, and there's a heck of a lot of fans just like me in the Scarlets region who think the same.

It's been a running argument about where the new stadium has been located, if you really want to say it's for the region then it should be the other side of Llanelli, nearer Carmarthen, and seeing as I remember going to Stradey and there being 12,000 to 15,000 every single home game then something has definitely gone wrong, ok that was the 80's, there were no live matches, but it shows there's a lot of fans being turned off the game by something. By the way, the Scarlets have always drawn support from further west, they've always been seen as a regional club, so saying they're only getting bus loads now is wrong, I can even remember buses coming down from Merthyr every home game.

Cymroglan wrote:No Stag it's not luck of the draw it's just poor vision by the WRU when they set up the regions in the first place.
Common sense dictates that you cant ignore a third of the population especially in a small country like Wales.

Common sense would suggest you appeal to where the market is. There is a clear rugby appetite in south Wales it made sense to locate there.

What was stupid was calling them regions. The WRU should have had the stones to call these what the were - franchised superclubs.

roddersm wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:I live in Wales but my nearest region is over four hours away

Which region is supposed to represent the North? Can't they play alternate games in Wrexham or somewhere?

the Scarlets tried that, hardly anyone turned up, it's like the Celtic Warriors situation again, people are moaning there's no region anymore but no-one turned out to support them while they were there.

red_stag wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:I live in Wales but my nearest region is over four hours away

Luck of the draw my friend. If you live in Donegal in Ireland, you are 4 hours from Connachts games and nearly 3 hours from Ulsters ones. It would take about 7 hours to get to Munster and about 9 to get to Leinster.

Not necessarily stag. You'd never really be more than a few hours drive from Galway or Belfast.

The difference is Donegal is still part of Ulster whereas North Wales is totally disconnected from the regions.

roddersm
The Scarlets was the region that drew the short they were selected to take in North Wales as part of their region.
I love watching the Scarlets play as much as I do the other regions but having a affinity with a side that's so far away is very difficult.

rugbydreamer.... It has been brought to my attention that you are a She when I thought you were a He. Is this true?

Turkster the Scarlets would play occasional here against lower ranked sides.
You need to understand that fans support sides they have a affinity with.
Fill your stadiums then I would have no case.

Common sense would suggest you appeal to where the market is. There is a clear rugby appetite in south Wales it made sense to locate there.


There is a huge market in North Wales it would not need to compete with any other region and a third of the population live here.
There are no major football clubs here so the scope for sponsorship is huge.

Cymroglan wrote:roddersm
The Scarlets was the region that drew the short they were selected to take in North Wales as part of their region.
I love watching the Scarlets play as much as I do the other regions but having a affinity with a side that's so far away is very difficult.

Yeah I can understand that, you guys were shafted by the WRU but its a financial thing really I suppose. Unfortunately the population of Wales is heavily concentrated in the south and there is north/ south devide in peoples minds.

I am 1.5 hours from Ravenhill but don't feel in anyway disconnected from Ulster rugby, other than perhaps logistically. It makes it feel all the more special when I see them play.

Leicester has Birmingham - the 2nd biggest city in the UK (as far as I know), Coventry - a city, Nottingham - a big city and Derby - a big city - none of whom have a comparitive rugby team.

Birmingham and Coventry are almost as close to Worcester (closer in Birmingham's case) as they are Tigers with Saints just as close to Coventry. Nottingham and Derby are a) massive football cities and b) Nottingham have a Championship level team playing in the city centre.

Turkster wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:It does Tursketer, I get the parc and ride from the train station nearly every time i go to Y Parc. It goes every half hour I think (so like 1:30, 2:00 etc).

Yes we've been splitting players between the clubs but not equally, we've always favoured Llanelli, that's only started to change in the last couple of seasons.
I never said the llanelli free ticket package was anythign to do with utilising the feeder clubs, I said getting rid of it was a way of seperating the link more between Llanelli and Scarlets.
And yeah sure we've got a great core base in Llanelli, we've also got a bunch of small minded people in Llanelli who also refuse to go to PyS because it's not Stradey. The Scarlets do a load of good work in Llanelli, and long may that continue, but they shouldn't forget the support they get outside of the town. They are really starting to work on that, they get bus loads of fans from much further out in West Wales now, and we need to keep working on that to get crowds to improve.

And not sure how I'm pandering to anyone?

I love the fact that the Scarlets are trying to do more things then just in the Llanelli area. I'm not from Llanelli, I don't relate to Llanelli, but I relate to the Scarlets. THe more they do to embrace the whole region, not just the town, the happier I am, and there's a heck of a lot of fans just like me in the Scarlets region who think the same.

It's been a running argument about where the new stadium has been located, if you really want to say it's for the region then it should be the other side of Llanelli, nearer Carmarthen, and seeing as I remember going to Stradey and there being 12,000 to 15,000 every single home game then something has definitely gone wrong, ok that was the 80's, there were no live matches, but it shows there's a lot of fans being turned off the game by something. By the way, the Scarlets have always drawn support from further west, they've always been seen as a regional club, so saying they're only getting bus loads now is wrong, I can even remember buses coming down from Merthyr every home game.

Sigh. I know the Scarlets have always drawn support from further West and been seen as a regional club, I'm from further West myself. I used the term now because in the years after our move to PyS we weren't getting those bus loads. We have started to get them more again this season and last season to an extent.

In the village I'm from, and the nearby town, most people there became Ospreys fans after the regions were formed. 1. because they had all of Wales' start. 2. Because they had the impression that the Scarlets were only botehred with Llanelli and nothing outside of it, and they didn't like it.

Now finally, the Scarlets are making a huge effort outside of Llanelli and it's really starting to pay off, these people who supported Llanelli before regionalisation (as they were the only big club nearby), are now starting to be drawn back as the Scarlets is embracing itself being a proper region.

I think the WRU missed a trick with the creation of the regions by attaching them, and naming them as affiliates of towns with already existing top level pro teams.

Perhaps they should have followed the Irish Example.... Munster is called Munster because they are in the Region of Munster. It creates a natural affliation.

To give an English example... Ask a Leicester man if he is the same as a Northampton man (and vice a versa) and they will almost certainly deny the heritage of your father and curse your ancestors.... but ask them if they are Eastern Midlanders and they will probably both say yes. We do identify with & share that connection.

Now rewind to Wales... ready made provinces based upon the old kingdoms of Gwynned (north wales), Deheubarth (west wales), Powys (East Wales) and Brycheiniog, Morgan & Gwent (South Wales)... bit of a mouthful I grant you but I'm sure they could have come up with something shorter MorGwenBry (?)

Instead we got Cardiff, Newport, Llanelli, Swansea etc.

Immediately you have created alienation from the other areas in the region because you named the region after a place in the region... instead of naming it after the region. If that makes sense?

That's why O's, Dragon & Scarlets have dropped the town names.... but the damage is done. It can be overcome but I fear it will take years.

Metal Tiger wrote:
Perhaps they should have followed the Irish Example.... Munster is called Munster because they are in the Region of Munster. It creates a natural affliation.

Thats the big difference. You can't manufacture a connection that doesn't exist.

I don't support Ulster because the IRFU tells me I should. I support them because I'm an Ulsterman. Whether I live 2 minutes or 2 hours from Ravenhill is irrelevent.

roddersm

Nail on head

Cymroglan wrote:Turkster the Scarlets would play occasional here against lower ranked sides.
You need to understand that fans support sides they have a affinity with.
Fill your stadiums then I would have no case.

whatever! as I said your posts are like Groudhog day. Now if you were to come out and say start a 5th region in the north I'd listen, until then it's boring.

Morgannwg wrote:rugbydreamer.... It has been brought to my attention that you are a She when I thought you were a He. Is this true?

Just seen this, and indeed I am a she, tis on my profile. Who brought it to your attention out of interest?


With regards to getting a north wales side, isn't RGC going to be put into the welsh premiership in a couple of seasons? And isn't Robyn McBryde starting soem development scheme up north sometime soon? I know it's not great, an it's slow progress but it's better then nothing. After all, when North Wales was in the Scarlets' region, and they did play games up tehre, no one really went to watch them play anyway.

Did it need to be said ? I thought it was rather obvious by the fact I said the regions were too far away.
Turkster I shall tell you what is tedious is listening to the silly excuses for the regions being so empty.

They aren't winning. Its the biggest reason.

Teams who don't win, don't get full stadiums.

Putting a region into the North won't fix that.

rugbydreamer the myth about nobody going to watch them play is nonsense , I went to watch them play there twice and the crowd was over 5000 one of those games was against a poor Borders side.
Look up the attendance records for the Scarlets at the Racecourse.

Red but it will enable the WRU to try and find potential talent in a area that holds a third of the population of Wales.
To me the regions are just feeder clubs to the national side and to have a strong Wales we need to search for players from every corner of Wales.

In regards to the attendances...Cardiff give away free tickets all the time to schools and clubs. Dont get me wrong I think its good that kids and the parents go for free/cheap but it shows how desperate they are to get people in. Iv been to 3 games since the fake regions came in and didnt have to pay for any of them

As far as North Wales goes.....

....the whole time wales were looking for a successor to Adam Jones, there was a ready-made beast up in north wales, who then had to go to and english club because of the clear lack of opportunities he was given. From there, he's always been put at a disadvantage (in comparison to the props who move to one of the welsh regions) as far as the welsh squad is concerned. And now, for the timebeing, he's in France.

This example for me, proves that the WRU are cutting off their noses to spite their face, theres a lot of untapped resource in north wales.

To ignore that as a business (which is what the WRU are first and foremost) makes no sense.

To ignore that resource from a rugby-related view, makes no sense.

To ignore what North Wales has to offer, makes no sense to me.

Why aren't Llanelli looking after North Wales like they promised. One of the very reasons they were aloud to be a stand alone fake region in the first place was due to them being "The region to represent the North"

red_stag wrote:They aren't winning. Its the biggest reason.

Teams who don't win, don't get full stadiums.

Putting a region into the North won't fix that.

Stag, you mentioned earlier that a Welsh team needs to win a Heineken Cup to boost their attendance. I agree that would help, and it seems to have worked in Ireland, but it can't be the only reason: in England Sale, Quins, Exeter, London irish, Gloucester have never won the Heineken Cup but they have better attendances on average than than the Welsh regions, yet some of the Welsh regions have gone farther in the HC than those English teams. Clearly winning the HC is not the determining factor for those teams. We're told that it's not beacuse they have a bigger population either, so what is it?!

Fenby, McCusker and North are all from North Wales and the Scarlets snapped them up so there is clearly talent up there for those willing to look for it, and I would agree that it would make sense to invest more up in North Wales, which is why I hope RGC really does take off, especially when it finally gets into the Welsh Premiership. I think invtesting in that over time, and building up a core fan base for that side is the way to go. Yes it will take time, but in the long term I reckon that would be fare more successful.

Cymro just checked the stats for attendances in North Wales: 5,000 or so the first season we became a region, that fell the next season to 4,000, fell again the next season to 3,000 and then North Wales was removed from being part of the Scarlets' region. That's a pretty big fall year on year really.

Jimmy Moz wrote:Why aren't Llanelli looking after North Wales like they promised. One of the very reasons they were aloud to be a stand alone fake region in the first place was due to them being "The region to represent the North"

The Scarlets did represent the North of Wales for the first 3 seasons (that's why there are posts on this thread about them playing games up there), then it was removed from their region due to the WRU going to invest in the area instead. That appears to be happening very slowly with the RGC set up.

The fall was due to the fact they rarely played here and when they did it was against the lower sides.

Scarlets did nothing wrong it's the WRU's fault for not planning the regional concept thoroughly.
The way it was set up was very amateurish.

Stag thats just one aspect of it. The reality is that the regions are manufactured entities which a lot of people feel disconnected from.

If the IRFU decided to tinker with the provincial boundaries and told you were now to support Leinster or Connacht or a new invented province rather than Munster how would you feel?

Cymroglan wrote:The fall was due to the fact they rarely played here and when they did it was against the lower sides.

Scarlets did nothing wrong it's the WRU's fault for not planning the regional concept thoroughly.
The way it was set up was very amateurish.

That's welsh rugby all over unfortunately. We're only just now starting to get our head around professionalism, we've got years to catch up on other unions around the world but at least it looks like our academies are starting to work

rugbydreamer wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:rugbydreamer.... It has been brought to my attention that you are a She when I thought you were a He. Is this true?

Just seen this, and indeed I am a she, tis on my profile. Who brought it to your attention out of interest?

maestegmafia did. Ah I see, it appears I am still unfamiliar with viewing profiles.

Comfort wrote:As far as North Wales goes.....

....the whole time wales were looking for a successor to Adam Jones, there was a ready-made beast up in north wales, who then had to go to and english club because of the clear lack of opportunities he was given. From there, he's always been put at a disadvantage (in comparison to the props who move to one of the welsh regions) as far as the welsh squad is concerned. And now, for the timebeing, he's in France.

This example for me, proves that the WRU are cutting off their noses to spite their face, theres a lot of untapped resource in north wales.

To ignore that as a business (which is what the WRU are first and foremost) makes no sense.

To ignore that resource from a rugby-related view, makes no sense.

To ignore what North Wales has to offer, makes no sense to me.

your example is wrong, Eifion Roberts was offered a contract by the Scarlets and he turned them down.

Eifion Roberts was offered a contract with the Scarlets as a development player with no guarantee of what the future may hold, it would have been quite an easy decision for him to make regarding Sale , He was able to play the game he loved and be home with his family in less than a hour.

Metal Tiger wrote:I think the WRU missed a trick with the creation of the regions by attaching them, and naming them as affiliates of towns with already existing top level pro teams.

Perhaps they should have followed the Irish Example.... Munster is called Munster because they are in the Region of Munster. It creates a natural affliation.

To give an English example... Ask a Leicester man if he is the same as a Northampton man (and vice a versa) and they will almost certainly deny the heritage of your father and curse your ancestors.... but ask them if they are Eastern Midlanders and they will probably both say yes. We do identify with & share that connection.

Now rewind to Wales... ready made provinces based upon the old kingdoms of Gwynned (north wales), Deheubarth (west wales), Powys (East Wales) and Brycheiniog, Morgan & Gwent (South Wales)... bit of a mouthful I grant you but I'm sure they could have come up with something shorter MorGwenBry (?)

Instead we got Cardiff, Newport, Llanelli, Swansea etc.

Immediately you have created alienation from the other areas in the region because you named the region after a place in the region... instead of naming it after the region. If that makes sense?

That's why O's, Dragon & Scarlets have dropped the town names.... but the damage is done. It can be overcome but I fear it will take years.

Newport Gwent Dragons haven't dropped the name Newport and Llanelli have been known as the Scarlets for at least 100 years or more if i'm not mistaken. Lord knows why Llanelli dropped their name as to me it's a unique marketing tool like no other. However they still wholeheartedly celebrate their history and tradition mind you, unlike Cardiff Blues who appear to totally ignore theirs.

You say the WRU missed a trick, but to put the boot on the other foot what would have happened if the English RFU told Leicester and Northampton that they had to merge to create a region? I suspect that both teams would tell the RFU in no uncertain terms to take a long walk off a short pier. Which IIRC, is basically what Cardiff and Llanelli told the WRU back in 2003.

Cardiff Dave wrote:Which IIRC, is basically what Cardiff and Llanelli told the WRU back in 2003.

I dont hate Llanelli and Cardiff for looking after their own interests. But lets not pretend that they appeal to a wider audience and actually give a flying about anyone but themselves. The only thing Cardiff have ever done for the Valleys is give away free tickets and that was to try and fill their...sorry...Cardiff City FCs empty soulless stadium

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Leicester has Birmingham - the 2nd biggest city in the UK (as far as I know), Coventry - a city, Nottingham - a big city and Derby - a big city - none of whom have a comparitive rugby team.

Birmingham and Coventry are almost as close to Worcester (closer in Birmingham's case) as they are Tigers with Saints just as close to Coventry. Nottingham and Derby are a) massive football cities and b) Nottingham have a Championship level team playing in the city centre.

My point was that Birmingham's Metropolitan area alone has a population which is the same as Wales' total population (according to Wiki) you can then add to that the populations of all the cities in East Midlands and any Leicester fans who may travel up from London (as it's easier to get to London on the train from Cardiff than it is to get to Llanelli from Cardiff late at night - I'd imagine it's even easier to get to Leicester).

That gives you a potential target audience in what must be easily in excess of 6 million, and although you have to divide that by 3 AV teams and 5 Football teams (3 Prem sides) - you compare that to Wales where you can realistically discount everybody in North Wales as the A roads are so bad it takes a 3 hour drive to get down and another 3 to get back and public transport is non-existent (meaning you could only attend sat afternoon games, of which there are about 5 a season) - you have a target audience of around 2 million of which a large proportion of the rugby fans are disaffected. You then need to divide this by the 4 regions and 2 football teams (1 Prem 1 Championship/almost Prem), then you can see that there is much more competition for the fans in S Wales - and on top of this there is a strong culture in S Wales (apologies don't know if there's the same culture in N Wales) of you're either a football fan or a rugby fan - rarely both.

It will get better and these things will die down once a strong identity and culture have been developed but it will take years - as it has for Leicester and the other English clubs

Griff wrote: in England Sale, Quins, Exeter, London irish, Gloucester have never won the Heineken Cup but they have better attendances on average than than the Welsh regions, yet some of the Welsh regions have gone farther in the HC than those English teams. Clearly winning the HC is not the determining factor for those teams. We're told that it's not beacuse they have a bigger population either, so what is it?!

No the English clubs have been around for decades - its their Premiership heritage that has fed them - and have the population to sustain them. For modern creations like the regions and the Irish provinces (they are modern in that they play reguarly before 1995 it was 4 games a year) it is the HEC which is a benchmark.

Jimmy Moz wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:Which IIRC, is basically what Cardiff and Llanelli told the WRU back in 2003.

I dont hate Llanelli and Cardiff for looking after their own interests. But lets not pretend that they appeal to a wider audience and actually give a flying about anyone but themselves. The only thing Cardiff have ever done for the Valleys is give away free tickets and that was to try and fill their...sorry...Cardiff City FCs empty soulless stadium

Agreed and they give away tickets all over the place, not just the valleys.
I would also like to add that historically, Cardiff have always had support from valley folk.

red_stag wrote:

No the English clubs have been around for decades - its their Premiership heritage that has fed them - and have the population to sustain them. For modern creations like the regions and the Irish provinces (they are modern in that they play reguarly before 1995 it was 4 games a year) it is the HEC which is a benchmark.

What are your views on Cardiff est 1876? They had decent attendances at The Arms Park 10 or so years ago. Some were sellouts.