Honest Debate, was this a great RWC for Wales considering who they beat and who they didnt?

Irrespective of what style the Welsh team played in the RWC, or how much the team has improved in the last year or so. Was this really a great RWC for Wales?

Of course a semi-final appearence is something to note. However this is marred by who Wales beat and who they didnt and at what crucial times.

Even slight losses are bad, especially matches teams were in a position to win, rugby after all like all sport is about winning. Wales are not a team like Samoa who if they run a classic superpower close, the galliant loss should be noted and heralded as the maximum performance the team could of put in.

Wales should and could beat teams like SA, Aus and certainly Fra.

My point is that, if you ignore the structure of the competition, Wales's record is unspectacular. Wins over Namibia (worst team in RWC); Samoa and Fiji (sides which in reality are the SH's version of Italy but worse) and Ireland in a 1/4 final.

Only one of those victories is remotely special. Ireland like most home nations teams are usually equally matched, so a victory is hard, but not rare. The only thing that puts the victory over Ireland into anything other than 'another match, another year' was that it was knockout rugby.

However, when you consider that victories for NH teams over SH are rare, rarer still for Wales, they failed to get a result that would of gone down in history. Once again Wales failed to kill the game in an important fixture, all three games they lost at this RWC should of been won, but they choked (leaving aside the passionate debate on the france game).

In the cold light of day it is business as usual for Wales. They beat three minowes, beat a side of their size and lost against the big boys. I don't want to see Wales just losing to big sides, I want to see them win and win trophies so that it matters. There have been far too many 'brave' loses against big sides and scant victories.

What do people think?

Honest Debate, was this a great RWC for Wales considering who they beat and who they didnt?

No based on that it was a case of near misses. However based on qualification and expectations before tournament it was a success.

Hmmm...!

Wales' last two performances missing key top players like Warburton, Adam Jones and Priestland, that had all made a massive contribution to the team prior obviously massively effected their game.

Today the players look tired, after having played their previous 63 mins of rugby with one man less in the semis they were bound to suffer.

Still I think this RWC has been a huge success, wales finished forth, we made the semis, we qualified with our heads held very high from the group of death, we beat a resurgent Irish effort convincingly.... Then Priestland didn't recover from a shoulder injury, Sam put in a silly tackle and Adam tore a muscle. Our world cup effort was dying.

Same would happen to any of the semi finalists if they had of had similar scenarios I am convinced.

Great effort, proud as punch of the lads, a young team and all bodes well for the future.

yes it was a success - a qualified success. They need an extra level of ruthlessness and belief to turn the three narrow defeats into victories next time round. Let the players graft their nuts off over the next 4 years and very good things could happen. Let the Henson effect take a few players off course and it could all go horribly wrong. Basically what Josh Lewsey said on Scrum V last week.

If you don't win then the only thing that matters is the performance. They've shown they can compete with some of the best but they're not quite there. If they push on from here its a success. If this is a peak then it's not great.

For me this has been a very successful RWC for Wales. Finishing 4th is excellent and the fact that they have a very young core team bodes very well for the future for them.

Sorry, wrong thread, I was looking for dishonest debate....

Seriously, we did better than expected, and it was certainly an improvement on 2007. I think the players and fans still have a lot to be proud of

Wales had a good RWC looking at the fact that they finished 4th. The fact that they still need to beat other top sides has been the case for some years now.

They have a young team with lots of potential, the question is now whether they can build from there to achieve the promise that they have been lacking for some time.

It is also a question of where do they want to see themselves in world rugby, if they want to progress into the top three, then there is still some work to be done.

If they just want to remain a top tier team with the odd victory against top nations then they are almost there if they can sustain what they have vuilt on over the past few months

The problem for Wales will be maintaining this form. Beaten by Australia today who we (Ireland) beat convincingly, and Wales gave us a tactical lesson. The gap between the northern hemisphere and the southern hemipshere (bar New Zealand) is narrowing, but by the same token, the gap between Ireland, Wales and France is just as narrow. If Ireland played Wales again next week Ireland might very well beat them and the close record over the past decade has suggested.

Wales need to sort out their 9/10 channel. Priestland looked like he could be the future there, and his kicking against us was magnificent. Phillips is a problem. For all his strongpoints, and he is the best 9 when it comes to physicality and taking a step to create a gap for himself in the defensive line, is that his distribution remains slow and often poor. For all the talk of this Welsh team playing the 'Welsh way', it was often the very anthesis of running running with Roberts used as a battering ram to create space. Effective, yes. Just remember how he was used by the Lions and how poor the intervening 2 years he has ben on the international scene.

You know I dont think I can judge this RWC a real success yet. Its been a good tournament for Wales no doubt about that, we exceeded most peoples expectations although a few of us were talking about a semi before it started. For me however we can judge this world cup as a success if it really does become the springboard for a truly great team. 99 for England may have been a failure in some respects but it laid the foundations of Englands win in 2003. The same could be said for SA in 2003-2007 or NZ 2007-to date (If as I expect they win of course).

I think its a bit too soon and the dust needs to settle before we can make an accurate assessment of the RWC for Wales. In a years time if we have beaten Aus 3 times out of 5 (yes were 0-1 at the moment) and won the 6N then I think we can see this as the start. If we implode in the 6Nations and get walloped three times in Oz then many people will see it all as a fluke.

Ymlaen Cymru!!!

poorly conceled wum for a first post. what other names have you used in the past?

dogtooth wrote:poorly conceled wum for a first post. what other names have you used in the past?

Well they seem to have failed miserably to Wind anyone up haven't they...

Again, i think that it was a sucess for Wales. A couple of players that people possibly had doubts about playing on the biggest stage really came out looking very good. As an Irishman, i would have been more than happy with 4th place and would have considered it a sucess.

In total, Wales lost all their games with a total of 5 points difference where in the past we would get totally spanked by South Africa, France and Australia (even Ireland).

After the 6 nations I didnt expect us to get out of the groups, after seeing the way we played against SA I KNEW we were going to get out of the groups and everything after that was a bonus.

Was it a wum? I thought it was quita reasoned assessment in some respects.

Do we need a third topic on this debate?

you can spin wales record either way. You can choose to see them as a team that lost 3 of 4 against top 10 teams or as a side who played the second best rugby in the torunament and threw away 3 games they should have won and a chance to contest the final which they deserved on merit. The truth is somewhere between.
All the 5 nations have been through this recently. A good run of games leading to mass optimism and overhype, its usually followed by a flump. Lets see if wales can keep up their play and start backing it up with results against top sides.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Do we need a third topic on this debate?

you can spin wales record either way. You can choose to see them as a team that lost 3 of 4 against top 10 teams or as a side who played the second best rugby in the torunament and threw away 3 games they should have won and a chance to contest the final which they deserved on merit. The truth is somewhere between.
All the 5 nations have been through this recently. A good run of games leading to mass optimism and overhype, its usually followed by a flump. Lets see if wales can keep up their play and start backing it up with results against top sides.

+1, I agree with that comlpletly.

maestegmafia wrote:

dogtooth wrote:poorly conceled wum for a first post. what other names have you used in the past?

Well they seem to have failed miserably to Wind anyone up haven't they...

only me it seems

In terms of who they beat and didnt it wasnt the best world cup performance. But you have to take in to account the expectations before the comp and the way they played and how close they were to great things. You could ask if anybody can really claim to be the best in the world with the tournament formatted the way it is, New Zealand have beaten realistically a poor France, Australia and Argentina who are not the team of 4 years ago to be in the final. Does this prove their dominance? To get a real view of who the best team is every team in the RWC would have to play every other team as in a league, but that would take too long or you'd have to lose most teams and just have a league of 8-10, which would be pretty un-inclusive to lower nations. Until that happens we can take the glory that we finally got a break and could get to the last 4 cos of Ireland beating the aussies. Cheers Ireland for that!

In terms of who we beat? Probably. Ireland and Samoa are good teams, better than, say, England at present, that we've lost too many times before.

In terms of the development in Warburton, Lydiate, Faletau, Charteris, Priestland, JD2, North & Halfpenny? And the team as a whole?

The way we proved, beyond doubt and on neutral turf, that we can compete with the best?

Oh yes.

Could be fair to say this world cup came four years early for this team.

LOL Samoe better than England? Your having a laugh, samoa have NEVER beaten England, ever! England are ranked 5th in the world and oly lost 1 game, Samoa are ranked outside the top 10 and lost 2 games!

Wales were the width of a post away (twice) from it being a great tournament for them - either beating SA on a neutral ground or France with 14 men would have been an epic win.

Perhaps the luck wasn't with them, but they'll certainly look back at the tournament as at least a qualified success. Not sure you can say the same for us or Scotland. Not sure how the Irish are viewing their tournament - one great performance, but went out at least a round earlier than they'd have expected after beating Australia.

Wales, Wales,Wales, and the Welsh, when will you ever learn ? You are minnows and small fry whose best hope in Rugby, as in national life is to punch above your weight, which i feel you did at this tournament, but sorry, its back to the Engine room where you can gaze upon the Big boys from below deck, and this will really stick in your craw, but England are, and remain one of the big boys. But again well done, for Wales!!

OP, yes it was ?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Do we need a third topic on this debate?

you can spin wales record either way. You can choose to see them as a team that lost 3 of 4 against top 10 teams or as a side who played the second best rugby in the torunament and threw away 3 games they should have won and a chance to contest the final which they deserved on merit. The truth is somewhere between.
All the 5 nations have been through this recently. A good run of games leading to mass optimism and overhype, its usually followed by a flump. Lets see if wales can keep up their play and start backing it up with results against top sides.

I quite like it when you take control of a situation Peter.

Call me.

We have progressed,so it has been a positive.Players have broken through and some experieced players appear reenergised.Very proud of the boys and very pleased.It is sad when other country's "supporters" resort to sad sniping coz they havent got much to take comfort from their own team's performance.

dummy_half wrote: Not sure how the Irish are viewing their tournament - one great performance, but went out at least a round earlier than they'd have expected after beating Australia.

It's a small success from my point of view.We achieved something we'd never done before by winning the group but then desperately disappointed to bow out in the quarters.

Great? na....no way.
Promising? Yup......completely.

ultra wrote:Great? na....no way.
Promising? Yup......completely.

Is that because your expectations of Wales were higher than they achieved...?

maestegmafia wrote:

ultra wrote:Great? na....no way.
Promising? Yup......completely.

Is that because your expectations of Wales were higher than they achieved...?

No, I think my expectations turned out to be about right, very promising side. Not great simply because of the old could, woulda, shoulda syndrome. They coulda and they shoulda but something I can't explain keeps me thinking but they won't.

Wales were worth a final for the players they have. THAT would of been a great world cup. It's turned out to be 'just good'.

Fair point...!

I think that mood is changing as the team leaders of the last five to ten years move out of the side. there is a lot to be said about the changing of the guard, especially Stephen Jones...

Shane, Wellies, Powell, Byrne, all should have played their last games for Wales now, Shane against Oz in a few weeks as a swansong otherwise as Gatlands hinted its time to start planning for the next world cup. 6 Nations 22 with everyone fit shuld look somthing like this,

1. Gethin
2. Smiler
3. Adam
4. Charteris.
5. AWJ
6. Lydiate
7. Warburton
8. Faletau
9. Phillips
10 Priestland
11. Stoddart
12 Roberts
13 JD
14 North
15. Halfpenny

16. James
17. Hibbard
18. Bradley
19. McCusker
20. Lloyd Williams
21. Tovey
22. Scott Williams

with people like Bevvington, Mitchell, Ian Evans, Tipuric, Rhys Webb, Turnbull, Brew, Ben Morgan, Cuthbert, Pretorius, Kristian Phillips, Gardiner, Biggar, Fish,

english warrior wrote:Wales, Wales,Wales, and the Welsh, when will you ever learn ? You are minnows and small fry whose best hope in Rugby, as in national life is to punch above your weight, which i feel you did at this tournament, but sorry, its back to the Engine room where you can gaze upon the Big boys from below deck, and this will really stick in your craw, but England are, and remain one of the big boys. But again well done, for Wales!!

England are the laughing stock of world rugby, with all your talents and resources you get booted by the French because you are too busy off the pitch.

I would rather be a minnow than a clown

Honest debate?

On results - no
on performances - yes and no
on kickers - no
on strength in depth - no
on flipping calf injuries - no
on ref - decisions - yes and no
on mental edge - NO
on promise for the future - ABSOFECKINGLUTELY
on heart, esprit de corps, not behaving like chumps, honour, pride passion , respect of the rugby world, making friends in NZ, and all those things rugby stands for in Wales - goes without saying

Am I the only Welshman secretly thinking that if we had won last week against the French just and then gone out like today against NZ we could have been beaten by a lot more. I feel we have just run out of steam and subs

Gatts wrote:

english warrior wrote:Wales, Wales,Wales, and the Welsh, when will you ever learn ? You are minnows and small fry whose best hope in Rugby, as in national life is to punch above your weight, which i feel you did at this tournament, but sorry, its back to the Engine room where you can gaze upon the Big boys from below deck, and this will really stick in your craw, but England are, and remain one of the big boys. But again well done, for Wales!!

England are the laughing stock of world rugby, with all your talents and resources you get booted by the French because you are too busy off the pitch.

I would rather be a minnow than a clown

Oi! gis me big red nose back Welshy!

Just because my shoes are 17 sizes too big is no need to take the pish.

Do you want to smell my flower? This one here on my jacket pocket, come on, lean closer and give it a good sniff - you know you want to......


SQUIRT

PJHolybloke wrote:

Gatts wrote:

english warrior wrote:Wales, Wales,Wales, and the Welsh, when will you ever learn ? You are minnows and small fry whose best hope in Rugby, as in national life is to punch above your weight, which i feel you did at this tournament, but sorry, its back to the Engine room where you can gaze upon the Big boys from below deck, and this will really stick in your craw, but England are, and remain one of the big boys. But again well done, for Wales!!

England are the laughing stock of world rugby, with all your talents and resources you get booted by the French because you are too busy off the pitch.

I would rather be a minnow than a clown

Oi! gis me big red nose back Welshy!

Just because my shoes are 17 sizes too big is no need to take the pish.

Do you want to smell my flower? This one here on my jacket pocket, come on, lean closer and give it a good sniff - you know you want to......


SQUIRT

Do you do bahmitzvahs?

England are the laughing stock of World Rugby ??

Well, my little Welsh minnows, that may be true, but where does that leave you, as we have won a World cup, beaten SH opposition home and away on 14 consecutive occasions and won the 6 nations this year, oh, and also beaten Australia home and away, and Wales haven't. Oh dear, oh dear, you've beaten ireland and now you are World beaters. Oh well 10 out of 10 for optimism!!

Look, you can only play who is in front of you. And Wales got to the Semi and lost by a point in a terrific and brave performance.
How can this not be a success?

I can say it again if you like. i woudl rather be a minnow than a clown.

Any self respecting England fan knows it is the truth, from top to bottom England are a shambles and frankly i am not interested in comparing a side with the respect of the rugby world with a side with no self respect. This is not an England v Wales debate is it so lets draw a line under it.

Yes wales did well.
Without jones warburton and priestland not sure it was that likely they would beat a near full strength oz side.

doctor_grey wrote:Look, you can only play who is in front of you. And Wales got to the Semi and lost by a point in a terrific and brave performance.
How can this not be a success?

absolutely doc, and it is not to diminish that success by discussing where we failed. I think we lost out on 3 victories by a TOTAL of 5 points!

I have mixed feelings, of complete respect and admiration for their achievement and of utter frustration at their lack of killer instinct.

But, look at it this way. Since 2005 we have been on a net rise in terms of our stock and performances. With this new cadre of youth having been bled in this way we can only thrive

Gatts wrote:I can say it again if you like. i woudl rather be a minnow than a clown.

Any self respecting England fan knows it is the truth, from top to bottom England are a shambles and frankly i am not interested in comparing a side with the respect of the rugby world with a side with no self respect. This is not an England v Wales debate is it so lets draw a line under it.

Fire up the Quatro Jonny!

Fook boss, the doors have fell off an I can't see for all this fookin smoke, pass me the bucket of confetti....

Taylorman wrote:Yes wales did well.
Without jones warburton and priestland not sure it was that likely they would beat a near full strength oz side.

yep these were key losses, 3 7 and 10. That siad our turnover stats, Ryan Jones especially, were outstanding

Gatts wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:

Gatts wrote:

english warrior wrote:Wales, Wales,Wales, and the Welsh, when will you ever learn ? You are minnows and small fry whose best hope in Rugby, as in national life is to punch above your weight, which i feel you did at this tournament, but sorry, its back to the Engine room where you can gaze upon the Big boys from below deck, and this will really stick in your craw, but England are, and remain one of the big boys. But again well done, for Wales!!

England are the laughing stock of world rugby, with all your talents and resources you get booted by the French because you are too busy off the pitch.

I would rather be a minnow than a clown

Oi! gis me big red nose back Welshy!

Just because my shoes are 17 sizes too big is no need to take the pish.

Do you want to smell my flower? This one here on my jacket pocket, come on, lean closer and give it a good sniff - you know you want to......


SQUIRT

Do you do bahmitzvahs?

Depends, blondes or brunettes?

It was a good campaign in that we exceeded our expectations. Having raised those expectations the results against tier 1 nations were disappointing. If you'd offered me 4th place in the WC at the end of the 6N I would have happily accepted it. It was also a good WC for development, as long as the young players in the squad continue to develope and other young players are brought in.

its irrelevant who wales beat or didn't beat.
The improvement of this team in so far as how they play and the style they are now playing in both attack and defense is far more important.

I cant help but think that there would be a number of supporters of other teams that wish their team had done likewise.

aucklandlaurie wrote: its irrelevant who wales beat or didn't beat.
The improvement of this team in so far as how they play and the style they are now playing in both attack and defense is far more important.

I cant help but think that there would be a number of supporters of other teams that wish their team had done likewise.

But England have the market cornered on massive shoes and checked suits, Hartley was even filmed driving a classic clown conveyance (get my alliteration), trying to drive it up a steep hill with no success due to the density of the passengers, if that isn't the pinnacle of clowning tell me what is.

Credit where credit is due, England are the imperial clowns.

Yeah Wales did well, but where were the essential clowns? Even Andy Powell stayed on limits.... sad times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YfgY8uxF88&feature=related
England squad take a turn to show appreciation to fans