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New English Players after the World cup

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Post by cb Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:46 am

As the "England's RWC Preparations" is meandering a bit and we in a bit of a phoney war situation, I thought I would raise a new topic looking at which new English players might be near the full squad, post work cup.

On my list would be (though obviously not all would ever make): -

Otoje
Ewers (offers a bit of muscle in the back-row)
Auterac
Slater
Kitchener (not really in favour with Rowtree/lancaster, but may be a bit underrated?)
Burgess

Slade (could easy make the final 31 for the World cup)
Cowan-Dickie (ditto as for Slade)
Wade (may be he might get a chance).
Devoto (actually can look a good inside centre)

The list in NOT exhaustive, please feel free to suggest more names and comment.


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Post by thomh Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:14 pm

If Jack Clifford stays fit then he'll be there, probably as a flanker rather than an 8 (where he played his u20).

Hooker is a position where there could be a vacancy. We don't know how Hartley's career will pan out now or how Youngs' set piece will fare. It could be a vacancy that's filled by the end of the tournament if George or someone steps up.

Brown may be in his last international years - maybe not - so there could be a back three vacancy. I'd like to see Nowell move to 15 and one of the other wing contenders like Yarde or Wade finally come good at international level. Not sure if any current u20s are excelling there. Wasn't there someone promising called Nathan Earle there a couple of years ago? Don't know much about him.

Most other positions are well stocked and still young, so it will be interesting to see if and where Lancaster or whoever else is coach feels the need to renew the side.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:24 pm

Can see Kitchener being ignored. He was the top line out stealer in the AP and is a 19 stone mobile machine. Thorn insists he'd be an All Black if he was a Kiwi. He's just not a tall back row unlike the favoured crop (Lawes, Slater, Parling, Launchbury, Kruis could all do a job at 6) so he doesn't fit he's an all out lock.

Slater must surely get a cap as he not only fits the pro forma for what the coaches are looking for but is the enforcer we desperately need.

LCD and Slade will be England players of that there is no doubt. Same with Itoje they are young players with too much ability to overlook, less so LCD but his attributes are favoured by the management.

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Post by king_carlos Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:39 pm

In some positions it is hard to tell. Particularly hooker, with noone is really sure if Hartley will be brought back in or how George or LCD will take to international rugby. Or whether Youngs will solidify a starting spot or Webber can refind a semblance of form for that matter.

In others, I don't think many players will be dumped straight into the cold but Parling will be moved on rapidly given the depth at second row. Similarly Haskell and Wood will need some big performances to hold of Itoje coming up on the rails.

I expect someone such as Kvesic will be given a go at openside at some point as well.

Wigglesworth and Dickson may struggle to hold onto a place if Simpson can keep his performances up or Robson can kick on at Wasps - with both of them there it will be interesting to see if they both improve and challenge each other or one falls behind.

Ashton will also be looking over his shoulder with Nowell, Watson, May, Wade, Yarde and Rokoduguni around. Although Watson may well move to FB in which case Brown and Goode will be getting itchy feet.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:05 am

Itoje and Clifford could be the flank combo of the next few years with a little bit of nurturing, they look really special.

The thing about Kitchener is he's a bit of show pony, I'm not sure he puts in enough graft to get to the next level. He certainly doesn't put his 19st mobile machine to great use imo.


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Post by Geordie Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:03 am

12's
Stephenson - Saints
Sam Hill - Exeter

The obvious ones:
Clifford
Kvesic
Slade
Itoje
Daly
Luke Cowan Dickie

Sinkler is a possibility as well...looks a real prospect if he can continue to progress.

Don't forget the squad is actually very young so there wont be huge changes or additions, but theres a couple of spots up for grabs and possibly a restructuring in the pack / back row.

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Post by Rugby Fan Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:22 am

A lot will depend on how we go in the Cup this year. On the one hand, a poor showing would likely see players dumped. In an extreme case, even the coach out the door.

A winning side would be harder to break into. After all, why ditch World Cup winning experience so easily.

To counterbalance that, some players might see a win as a career peak, and take the money in France if offers came.

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Post by Cumbrian Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:27 am

Slade, Itoje and Cowan-Dickie are the obvious calls being so close to the squad.
I believe that Clifford is a good call too, he has all of the skills and physical attributes to succeed, but he also has a very good rugby brain.  I can see him being around the England team for years.

I know there are plenty of young locks out there, but I will be interest to see how Matt Symon goes at London Irish, there was talk of him being called up the All Blacks before he decided to come home.  That is not to be sniffed at.
Earls is a good player, but he has an awful lot of young competition for a back three spot.  Off the top of my head I can think of Watson, Nowell, Wade, Yarde, May.  Or guys like Charlie Walker or Zach Kibirige who are very young, but are establishing themselves in Premiership squads.  That is without thinking of ‘older’ guys like Ashton, Rokoduguni and Sharples.

I’ll be interested to see what happens at fullback too.  As others have said,  both Brown and Foden are 30 this year and Goode just doesn’t seem to cut it at international level.  Who are our long term full backs ?Again, as others have said you would guess that Watson will eventually head back there full time but who else?    I’ll be keeping an eye on a few youngster over the next few years such as Aaron Morris, Howard Packman (reckon he will end up full back) and Simon Hammersley.

Finally there is the eternal problems of the centres (how many times have I said that?!).  Outside Centre on the surface seems fairly healthy. Joseph is nailed on and you would think after rehabilitation Manu will come in and provide competition. However, Manu has been a walking injury for the last year and Joseph hasn’t been without his injury issues either, so ideally there needs to be someone else to challenge. Don’t even get me started on inside centre; that could fill a thread all on it's own.
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Post by Cumbrian Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:30 am

Sinckler is a good call, he will learn a lot from being in a Quins scrum that is quite often on the back foot too.
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Post by Geordie Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:55 am

Ive just asked on the club threads aswell, but whats the crack with Auterac the LH at Bath. He's massive. But is he a good player or a gym Monkey?

If hes the real deal then he could be one to watch.

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Post by Cumbrian Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:07 am

Auterac is very good, incredibly strong. Whenever I saw him come on I thought he improved the scrum, although I don't think James adapted to the new scrum law particularly well. Another good thing about his situation is that he and Henry Thomas are coming through together, they will help each other improve.
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Post by Geordie Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:17 am

I think England really need a couple more players of immense physical strength (as long as they can play of course)


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Post by beshocked Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:27 am

From a Saracens perspective:

Most of the EQ Saracens forwards are on the radar already- Fraser might be back on it if he can avoid being injured.

Going to be a bit of a shake up in the Saracens backs.

De Kock is 36. Wigglesworth likely to be on world cup duty. 3rd choice Spencer must be feeling this could be his season.

Strettle has left Saracens - that wing spot is up for grabs, if Ashton makes the 31 then that's another spot (unlikely but possible).

With most of the Saracens backline likely to be on world cup duty there should be opportunities for the likes of Nick Tompkins,Ben Ransom,Ben Spencer,Nathan Earle and Aaron Morris, even youngster Perkins to break into the first team and hold down a spot.

There's also two older Englishmen, Streather and Ellery who might fancy their chances too.

Great thing is that the Saracens pack should still be able to give them plenty of good ball and they will get to work with Hodgson at 10 if he stays fit of course.

Maybe none of them will make it for England but gametime is what youngsters need.

If I was going to say who the best prospects are - I would say Tompkins and Earle.

If they have good runs in the AP they could make the 6 nations.

The reason I pick them is as Cumbrian says - the 13 shirt still doesn't have lots of depth - Joseph and Tuilagi are the main two but other than them there aren't many specialists.

Nathan Earle has played both full back and wing so fits Lancaster's love of full backs. Plus he's a quite big lad and fast.

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Post by Geordie Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:33 am

Beshocked,
Whos the young Tight head at Sarries? Abiyi or something. Wasn't he in the JWC winning team.
Will he get some gametime with you guys this season

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Post by beshocked Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:07 am

Geordiefalcon

Biyi Alo - don't know enough about him though I think it's unlikely.

Du Plessis - was scrummaging well last season even though he doesn't offer much round the park. Longbottom looked good before his injury.


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Post by thomh Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:26 am

Sloan at Quins is pretty promising as well, but he might struggle for games once Roberts arrives.

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Post by king_carlos Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:30 am

If our options can evolve into something like below over the next couple of seasons then I will be a very happy fan.

1.Marler, Mako, Waller - Hopefully Corbs can get back to where he was
2. ? Big chances at the world cup for all of Youngs, Webber, George and LCD to put a marker down
3.Cole, Wilson, Brookes, Sinckler
4.Launchbury, Slater, Kruis
5.Lawes, Kitchener
6.Itoje, Clifford, Wood/Haskell*
7.Robshaw, Kvesic, Fraser
8.Morgan, Billy V - I hope Hughes plays for Fiji but it looks likely he will break through as well

9.Youngs, Care, Simpson, Robson
10.Ford, Farrell, Slade

11.Nowell, Yarde
12.Tuilagi, Slade, Stephenson, Hill
13.Joseph, Daly, Slade
14.Wade, May, Rokoduguni
15.Watson, Brown, Nowell

* If Wood or Haskell are still deserving a squad place on merit then keep them involved. Our squad as a whole is young enough to not need to forcibly shelve anyone approaching 30! However I hope Itoje can surpass them rapidly post RWC. He has such a good skill set to compliment a pack containg Cole, Launchbury and Robshaw.

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Post by Geordie Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:51 pm

Whats peoples views on Robshaw post WC. I assume its his position until someone like Kvesic, Fraser or Clifford plays well enough to take it off him.

What about captaincy...is his leadership good enough?


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Post by propdavid_london Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:29 pm

Robshaw is still a young chap with a massive engine...I dont expect him to just step aside post WC! Although it would be good to have him playing regularly for Quins again. Same for Brown and Care.

The youngsters have to proove that they are another level on the incumbents.

Currently in my mind the only real positions where that is happening is at no. 2 with LCD and George pushing T.Youngs. (I expect Webber to be out of the picture post WC, and Hartley will be surplus to requirements).

Manu T will be back in the picture during the 6N as long as he doesnt do something stupid again.
Roko isnt a young chap is he, so he may get limited oportunities against younger oposition (but there is generally a high turnover at wing anyway).

The great thing about this current England squad is the average age - we arent going to see a mass exodus post WC that weve seen in the past.

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Post by lostinwales Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:40 pm

propdavid_london wrote:..
Manu T will be back in the picture during the 6N as long as he doesnt do something stupid again.  .. 

And if he gets fit in time. I think he will return eventually but it does sound as if his injury is taking its own sweet time to fix

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Post by Geordie Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:44 pm

Im still not convinced on the set up of the back 5. Think it could be tweaked a bit to give another more strength and power player...maybe Slater could be that player. Who knows.

Although all the potential hookers (Youngs, LCD, George) are big carriers so that should help.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:16 pm

Hughes will definitely be brought into the set up & watch out for Jake Cooper - Woolley at TH.
The other TH not mentioned is Henry Thomas what has happened there? I rate Brookes but am not convinced by Sinckler yet.

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Post by Geordie Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:27 pm

But Hughes would just be another 8. We already have Ben and Billy there.

I know theres a lot of debating about Itoje...but I really do hope he turns out to be the real deal at 6 as he might add some extra oomph.

I just want to see a bit more muscle and power / strength in there somewhere.

I mean at Prem level quins are a mobile athletic pack...but Olly Kohn gave them a real powerful guy. Just think England could do with someone like that.
Just my opinion of course...I could be very wrong

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:44 pm

Well I guess I am biased but Hughes is imo better than both Billy & Ben (sounds like a kids programme?) & I rate them both.

Itoje I'm sure will come in at 6 & with a fit Slater there will be plenty of power if required.

As always the midfield is the conundrum & there are many combinations that we haven't seen yet.
Manu, Slade, Hill, JJ, SB - what will be the best combo? When will they be tested?

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Post by beshocked Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:57 pm

Bigtrevsbigmac Hughes is unproven at international level.

If you say that you believe that Hughes is in better club form than Billy & Ben then you might have a good case but better no 8 at international level? Not a chance.

It would be like saying someone like LCD or George are better than Youngs - well we don't know unless one of them gets tried at international level and showed consistent good form.

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Post by DaveM Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:04 pm

Here's a possible side for the summer tour:

Auturac (he's an incredible athlete - I can't wait for Rowntree to work with him)
LCD
Brookes
Lawes
Itoje (remember he'll bulk up over the next 12 months)
Burgess
Robshaw (I reckon he's aiming for 2019, and I don't see who will take the shirt)
Vunipola
Youngs
Ford
Yarde
Slade
Joseph
Nowell
Watson

George
Vunipola
Cooper-Woolley
Launchbury
Clifford
Care
Farrell
Tuilagi

I think concerns about the carrying of the pack are hugely overstated, but that pack can carry. The backs are pacey with excellent skills. My only concern is whether slightly more bulk is required, in which case Tuilagi could come in for Joseph. I think it should be ok though, as the wingers can look after themselves, as can Slade and Joseph.

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Post by Geordie Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:12 pm

I think concerns about the carrying of the pack are hugely overstated, but that pack can carry

Dave, ive been one of the vocal ones about the carrying. I just feel we could do with a bit more.
However maybe its more than that...and we just need some extra dumb strength and power in there rather than carrying.

I just feel we're missing that something. Its great to have a fast athletic pack...but Lawes, Launchbury, Wood, Robshaw all offer very similar body types (tall, lean, rangy) and gamestyles.

I had hoped Attwood could provide that difference but that failed...maybe slater can be trialled. Maybe Itoje whilst similar to the other can provide more oomph.

EDIT - Yes Auturac would be someone with that kind of strength I was talking about....but he's young and Marler is quality LH to overtake.

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Post by DaveM Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:40 pm

Ok, but the pack I list above has a variety of body shapes in it. I'd give Marler next summer off, along with Cole.

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Post by Cumbrian Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:05 pm

First ever three test tour in Australia for England, will be really fired up to win it. Reckon we will take a very strong team. Although I like your team Dave, can see the bones of a side that will compete strongly for the next decade.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:13 pm

Cooper-Wooley is a bit of left field call, I didn't think he progressed as well as people thought.

It's a shame Francis hasn't seen the light and decided to play for his country.

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Post by Gwlad Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:24 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Cooper-Wooley is a bit of left field call, I didn't think he progressed as well as people thought.

It's a shame Francis hasn't seen the light and decided to play for his country.

He most assuredly has thumbsup

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:44 pm

beshocked wrote:Bigtrevsbigmac Hughes is unproven at international level.

If you say that you believe that Hughes is in better club form than Billy & Ben then you might have a good case but better no 8 at international level? Not a chance.

It would be like saying someone like LCD or George are better than Youngs - well we don't know unless one of them gets tried at international level and showed consistent good form.

Well I have seen both at Wasps and watched Billy's inevitable progress but from what I saw last season Hughes has the edge.
Because one player has played internationally and another hasn't doesn't automatically make them a better player. It is purely an opinion that's all. England will be in a very strong position at 8.

There are plenty of players selected to play for the Lions that imo aren't better than some that weren't, it's just an opinion & that's what the forum is for surely?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:00 pm

Gwlad wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Cooper-Wooley is a bit of left field call, I didn't think he progressed as well as people thought.

It's a shame Francis hasn't seen the light and decided to play for his country.

He most assuredly has thumbsup

He's English and plays in England....

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Post by Cumbrian Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:24 pm

Don't worry Sgt, we'll just have to limp along with the likes of Cole, Wilson, Brookes, Thomas, Balmain, Sinckler and Wilson  

It's not nice to lose a promising tight head, but we have to share the wealth!  Lets face it fans of other nations can't keep criticising our youth policy if they are profiting from it!
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Post by king_carlos Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:51 pm

DaveM wrote:Ok, but the pack I list above has a variety of body shapes in it. I'd give Marler next summer off, along with Cole.

Agreed on both counts. I'd add Lawes to that list as well.

Robshaw will likely be in need of a rest as well but I expect that will depend on whether he has retained the captaincy.

I expect that a few others might be looking in need of a rest as well by the end of a RWC, Six Nations and what is looking likely to be a very competive Prem. Some rotation of players between tests may be required for some postion depending on key players work loads throughout the season.

Tom Wood could be an interesting player in that regard. Given his injury record I would have thought a rest will be necessary by the end of the season. If he is playing for his place in the squad then he will be extremely reluctant to take the rest however.

1.Mako 2.Youngs/George 3.Wilson 4.Launchbury/Slater 5.Kitchener 6.Itoje 7.Robshaw/Kvesic 8.Morgan/Billy
9.Youngs/Care 10.Ford/Farrell 11.Nowell 12.Manu/Slade 13.Joseph 14.Wade 15.Watson

I would be very happy to see a side such as that in Aus. With the likes of Launchbury/Slater, Robshaw/Kvesic, etc sharing the workload a bit to avoid burnout and take a proper look at our options.

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Post by Gwlad Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:56 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Cooper-Wooley is a bit of left field call, I didn't think he progressed as well as people thought.

It's a shame Francis hasn't seen the light and decided to play for his country.

He most assuredly has thumbsup

He's English and plays in England....

and he's decided to play for his country. If the sole requirement choosing one's country was birthplace then most national sides would be half the team they are.

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Post by Cumbrian Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:08 pm

Yes, as a proud Yorkshireman (his words) who admits that he doesn't know the words to 'Land of My Fathers', I'm sure he'll serve 'his country' faithfully, although this might be a little more illuminating:

"I have spoken to England back in the autumn,” Francis said. “There was a lot of young talent in the tightheads and obviously I had only played five games then so they said, ‘Keep your head down and you are on the radar. We know you are English and if Exeter do well then it could happen’."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/11540643/Wales-look-set-to-beat-England-to-battle-for-Tomas-Franciss-services.html
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:17 pm

Gwlad wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Cooper-Wooley is a bit of left field call, I didn't think he progressed as well as people thought.

It's a shame Francis hasn't seen the light and decided to play for his country.

He most assuredly has thumbsup

He's English and plays in England....

and he's decided to play for his country. If the sole requirement choosing one's country was birthplace then most national sides would be half the team they are.

As far as I'm aware he's never played rugby in Wales and says he's English. At least most of these mercenaries actually play in the country they represent. I wouldn't be happy with a Welsh player, playing in Wales, turning out for England. Maybe he's a double agent send in by Stewie?

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Post by Gwlad Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:33 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Cooper-Wooley is a bit of left field call, I didn't think he progressed as well as people thought.

It's a shame Francis hasn't seen the light and decided to play for his country.

He most assuredly has thumbsup

He's English and plays in England....

and he's decided to play for his country. If the sole requirement choosing one's country was birthplace then most national sides would be half the team they are.

As far as I'm aware he's never played rugby in Wales and says he's English. At least most of these mercenaries actually play in the country they represent. I wouldn't be happy with a Welsh player, playing in Wales, turning out for England. Maybe he's a double agent send in by Stewie?


Oh i see so its okay if you play in the country first; gotcha
Well this guy is so good he is going to play FOR his country first. His choice surely so respect it. Stewie was obviously too shortsighted to see his worth or is so overwhelmed with options that Francis wouldn't get a look in.

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Post by Gwlad Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:46 pm

Manu, Hartley, Barrit, Rokodoguni all chose to play for England. Their choice was based on a variety of factors no doubt but their eligibility was based on residency. Good luck to them.

Francis' eligibility was based on his Gran and he's made his choice.

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Post by thomh Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:34 pm

Hartley and Barritt's was based on parents I believe.

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Post by lostinwales Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:01 pm

Gwlad wrote:Manu, Hartley, Barrit, Rokodoguni all chose to play for England. Their choice was based on a variety of factors no doubt but their eligibility was based on residency. Good luck to them.

Francis' eligibility was based on his Gran and he's made his choice.

We have done all this to death a few times. Lets just not go there before we start getting on to that well known Mancunian Lydiate or Brummy J Davies....

Francis plays in a position there is real strength in in England. Rightly or wrongly there is no guarantee he'd ever make it with England, and he had another route into international rugby. He made a choice to take that route and good luck to him.

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Post by DaveM Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:05 pm

Cumbrian wrote:First ever three test tour in Australia for England, will be really fired up to win it.  Reckon we will take a very strong team. Although I like your team Dave, can see the bones of a side that will compete strongly for the next decade.

England are arriving at a place were we have multiple options for each position. For instance, everyone's favourite problem position of 12: SL will be able to pick between Slade, Stephenson, Hill and Devoto. All are fine players and will get a lot better.

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Post by DaveM Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:23 pm

king_carlos wrote:
DaveM wrote:Ok, but the pack I list above has a variety of body shapes in it. I'd give Marler next summer off, along with Cole.

Agreed on both counts. I'd add Lawes to that list as well.

Robshaw will likely be in need of a rest as well but I expect that will depend on whether he has retained the captaincy.

I expect that a few others might be looking in need of a rest as well by the end of a RWC, Six Nations and what is looking likely to be a very competive Prem. Some rotation of players between tests may be required for some postion depending on key players work loads throughout the season.

Tom Wood could be an interesting player in that regard. Given his injury record I would have thought a rest will be necessary by the end of the season. If he is playing for his place in the squad then he will be extremely reluctant to take the rest however.

1.Mako 2.Youngs/George 3.Wilson 4.Launchbury/Slater 5.Kitchener 6.Itoje 7.Robshaw/Kvesic 8.Morgan/Billy
9.Youngs/Care 10.Ford/Farrell 11.Nowell 12.Manu/Slade 13.Joseph 14.Wade 15.Watson

I would be very happy to see a side such as that in Aus. With the likes of Launchbury/Slater, Robshaw/Kvesic, etc sharing the workload a bit to avoid burnout and take a proper look at our options.

I'm not sure the coaching staff will ever trust Wade enough to give him game time, particularly as there are plenty of other good wing options. The other place where I'd differ is at 6: SL loves Burgess, and I think Burgess can only play 6 in the long-term, which will push Itoje into the second row (where he'll surely be ahead of Kitchener?). Wood is a good player, but lacks the presence, USP and physicality of Burgess. SL is going to have some nice dilemmas to solve.

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Post by Gwlad Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:30 am

lostinwales wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Manu, Hartley, Barrit, Rokodoguni all chose to play for England. Their choice was based on a variety of factors no doubt but their eligibility was based on residency. Good luck to them.

Francis' eligibility was based on his Gran and he's made his choice.

We have done all this to death a few times. Lets just not go there before we start getting on to that well known Mancunian Lydiate or Brummy J Davies....

Francis plays in a position there is real strength in in England. Rightly or wrongly there is no guarantee he'd ever make it with England, and he had another route into international rugby. He made a choice to take that route and good luck to him.

Rolling Eyes exactly the point i was making, so not sure why you need to add your two penny worth if you don't want go there.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:56 am

Gwlad wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Cooper-Wooley is a bit of left field call, I didn't think he progressed as well as people thought.

It's a shame Francis hasn't seen the light and decided to play for his country.

He most assuredly has thumbsup

He's English and plays in England....

and he's decided to play for his country. If the sole requirement choosing one's country was birthplace then most national sides would be half the team they are.

As far as I'm aware he's never played rugby in Wales and says he's English. At least most of these mercenaries actually play in the country they represent. I wouldn't be happy with a Welsh player, playing in Wales, turning out for England. Maybe he's a double agent send in by Stewie?


Oh i see so its okay if you play in the country first; gotcha
Well this guy is so good he is going to play FOR his country first. His choice surely so respect it. Stewie was obviously too shortsighted to see his worth or is so overwhelmed with options that Francis wouldn't get a look in.

He's English, he's not going to play for HIS country. It's really not that hard to understand, Francis was born in England and plays for England. The desperation of Gatland (or the lack of quality in Wales) that they feel the need to scour other leagues/countries for players with any slight link is really sad imo.

I don't know who I feel more sorry for, Francis or the Welsh supporters.

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Post by Cumbrian Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:29 am

I personally don't have an issue with the fella, he has made his choice and good luck to him. If he turns out to a world class no.3 will probably be a bit jealous, but I will also always think that he jumped ship at 23 because he didn't have the fight or resolve to be an England tighthead. He looked at the options and decided he had more of a chance of getting a cap with Wales.

Genuine question, how good is he? As far as I can see he was being called up after a handful of starts and all I can see is some hyperbole about him 'dominating' Corbisero in a game at Sandy Park.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:36 am

He's looked dominant in a number of games Cumbrian which is rare in the AP, I think he's got huge potential and we're missing a trick allowing to play for Wales. I imagine all it would take is a call from SL and he'd be up for playing for his country.

I'd have him ahead of Brookes personally, who I don't rate too highly.

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Post by Cumbrian Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:00 am

Sounds impressive enough, he does have a very well drilled and experienced Exeter pack behind him too. Lets see what happens in his second season when teams have had a chance to get a proper look at him.  

Lancaster did call him, he told him to keep his head down and keep working and the call will come.  Gatland pitched up and told him and told him he would start him straight away (doubt he guaranteed him more than one cap though).  It was a choice between hard graft and instant gratification and Francis chose instant gratification, tells me a lot of what I need to know.
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Post by king_carlos Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:16 am

DaveM wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
1.Mako 2.Youngs/George 3.Wilson 4.Launchbury/Slater 5.Kitchener 6.Itoje 7.Robshaw/Kvesic 8.Morgan/Billy
9.Youngs/Care 10.Ford/Farrell 11.Nowell 12.Manu/Slade 13.Joseph 14.Wade 15.Watson

I would be very happy to see a side such as that in Aus. With the likes of Launchbury/Slater, Robshaw/Kvesic, etc sharing the workload a bit to avoid burnout and take a proper look at our options.

I'm not sure the coaching staff will ever trust Wade enough to give him game time, particularly as there are plenty of other good wing options.

I know this has been done to death so will try to keep my response short! Basically I do admit that Wade has poor positioning but just wish Lancaster would accept all his other options, Nowell aside, are poor defensively as well. Breaking down defence into it's most crucial components for a winger, tackling and positioning:

Nowell - Strong in both
Watson - Usually solid in positioning but poor in the tackle
May - Is usually soldid in both but has developed a tendency to fail under pressure in his own 22 - i.e. rushing out the line at Faletau to leave an overlap for a try and failing to tackle Morisi into touch when he should have.
Ashton - Has improved immeasurably in both and is actually very solid in positioning now but is still poor in the tackle.
Yarde - Poor in positioning to the point where he has a tendency to go missing in defence.
Wade - See Yarde.
Rokoduguni - One of the strongest in the tackle with the capability to put big hits in like Nowell due to his power. His postioning is better than Yarde or Wade but still gets caught out more than I'd like in this regard - one of the strongest defensively however.

All of them, Nowell aside, have their issues defensively IMO. Wade however adds the ability to change a game in attack due to his ability to beat a defender in no space at all from anywhere on the pitch.

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