Heaslip most likely out of 6N with suspected broken vertabrae

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/jamie-heaslip-could-miss-rest-of-six-nations-with-suspected-broken-vertebrae-1.2104645

Just thought I'd leave this here after the comments about deserving an oscar and milking it. Doubt we'll see Pape for the rest of the tournament either.

Can anyone be sure it was intentional though? I though pape ran into join the maul and slipped slightly catching heaslip with the knee. Not sure you can cite someone without proving it was delibrate

(1) To any one who watched the game yesterday, i dont think any would of thought that Heaslip was as you are saying Milking it.


(2) I don't see how any one can say with 100% certainty can that Pape deberately ran in to Heaslip[. I do believe that it was a pure accident....Even the TMO could not say it was deliberate or not.

Looked deliberate Wayne Barnes was again weak in making a crucial decision. Why yellow card Pape?

That act of foul play is a red or nothing.

The incident was right infront of him and he re-watched it about twenty times.

The way it happened just didn't look right to me. I have only seen the replays shown during the match but 3 things were strange...
-Pape appeared to change stride (taking a deeper and springier step with his right foot before impact)
-His knee came up too high
-There seemed to be excessive force behind the knee
I thought it was intentional, and thats just my honest opinion

I thought he slipped as he went in to the ruck/maul so not so sure to be honest.

Impossible to tell intent from the replays I saw. Just as it was imposible to tell intent with Atwoods kick in George North's head or Haskell's knee in Halfpenny's face. Just not possible, in these instances, to tell from the video. Manu Tuilagi's punches on Ashton a few years back - now that was intent! Easy to spot that one on video.

http://www.theroar.com.au/2015/02/15/ireland-vs-france-2015-six-nations-live-scores-blog/

50 seconds... Pape projects himself off his right leg so his left knee can get higher up onto the back. I think it looks obvious

maestegmafia wrote:Looked deliberate Wayne Barnes was again weak in making a crucial decision. Why yellow card Pape?

That act of foul play is a red or nothing.

Was Sam Warburtons red card deserved for foul play against France in RWC 2011 ?

toml wrote:http://www.theroar.com.au/2015/02/15/ireland-vs-france-2015-six-nations-live-scores-blog/

50 seconds... Pape projects himself off his right leg so his left knee can get higher up onto the back. I think it looks obvious

Video link is unavailable. Also, I don't think its intentional.

I don't think slow mo's give a true indication of what happened and in most cases make thinks look worse.

The Payne incident showed that citing doesn't have to be based on intent. At best Pape was reckless and deserves a ban, at worst his action was deliberate and deserves a long ban.

It certainly looked deliberate to me.

majesticimperialman wrote:(1) To any one who watched the game yesterday, i dont think any would of thought that Heaslip was as you are saying Milking it.


(2) I don't see how any one can say with 100% certainty can that Pape deberately ran in to Heaslip[. I do believe that it was a pure accident....Even the TMO could not say it was deliberate or not.

I thought he was milking it at the time - maybe I got that wrong. Very clear it was a deliberate foul to me

Steve_rugby wrote:

toml wrote:http://www.theroar.com.au/2015/02/15/ireland-vs-france-2015-six-nations-live-scores-blog/

50 seconds... Pape projects himself off his right leg so his left knee can get higher up onto the back. I think it looks obvious

Video link is unavailable. Also, I don't think its intentional.

Sorry it must be australian only

how about this? 1:15

http://www.sarugbymag.co.za/blog/details/highlights-ireland-vs-france-2015

TJ wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:(1)  To any one who watched the game yesterday, i dont think any would of thought that Heaslip was as you are saying Milking it.


(2) I don't see how any one can say with 100% certainty can that Pape deberately ran in  to Heaslip[. I do believe that it was a pure accident....Even the TMO could not say it was deliberate or not.

I thought he was milking it at the time - maybe I got that wrong.  Very clear it was a deliberate foul to me

Steve_rugby wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Looked deliberate Wayne Barnes was again weak in making a crucial decision. Why yellow card Pape?

That act of foul play is a red or nothing.

Was Sam Warburtons red card deserved for foul play against France in RWC 2011 ?

Yes it was, according to the pages and pages of posts on here arguing so back in 2011.

I took this off a replay at the moment of impact. As i said he sinks lower onto the right leg than normal and then springs up pushing off his toes, lifting the left knee higher than his normal stride. From that it is my opinion it was a deliberately abnormal motion with the intent of injury to Heaslip. I would have given a red card. If it there wasn't intent then it was reckless.
But it isn't my opinion that matters, we'll see what the citing commissioners say in a few days.

The difference there was the act was clearly a red card, whether you agree with the laws or not. Intent is not relevant to tip tackles, except for the length of the ban, the onus is on the tackler to control it.
The difference here is we have to infer intent to decide whther the strike was deliberate or not. As it was Heaslip was appealing to the ref before he had even gone down without any knowledge of how the contact occured...as it turns out with good reason because hes been seriously injured by it.
But personaly I still dont think its clear cut from the video if the intent was there to strike the player or not, although on balance knowing what a cheap shot merchant he is its pretty likely. The TMO wasnt willing/able to make a call, Barnes fudged one....let sface it he'd be copping heat either way on that. Even when he said he was recommending yellow the TMO was hesitant in responding, I got the impression he though no foul. Barnes is getting hung out to dry on this one as the guy in the middle who had to make a 50/50 decision and going for 25.


If it is judged to be deliberate then Pape should cop a significant ban for it. How do things stand on players being cited for yellow card incidents now, can they be upgraded after the fact? They keep changing the rules on that kind of thing. I suspect the panel would be hard pressed to feel theres sufficient evidence of intent though

toml,

Playing devils advocate here, because I think he probably did do "as little as possible to avoid kneeing Heaslip in the back" (or try and take him out of the game knowing he was just back from injury if you want that translating from Afrikaans) but as you go into contact isnt it quite normal to try and do it with an explosive movement and maximum power? Wouldnt that be generated by exactly what you describe.

I do think its not entirely clear cut.

It would be a massive loss for Ireland if Heaslip misses the rest of the tournament. As said on the match thread, I still do not see it as clear cut intentional kneeing. I see it as dangerous play at best but that's just me. In a physical game, these things happen.

toml wrote:

I took this off a replay at the moment of impact. As i said he sinks lower onto the right leg than normal and then springs up pushing off his toes, lifting the left knee higher than his normal stride. From that it is my opinion it was a deliberately abnormal motion with the intent of injury to Heaslip. I would have given a red card. If it there wasn't intent then it was reckless.
But it isn't my opinion that matters, we'll see what the citing commissioners say in a few days.

I am not so sure. To me it looks as if it is deliberate, but you could make the argument he mistimed it and was getting ready to plant and drive off that foot.

Gooseberry wrote:toml,

Playing devils advocate here, because I think he probably did do "as little as possible to avoid kneeing Heaslip in the back" (or try and take him out of the game knowing he was just back from injury if you want that translating from Afrikaans) but as you go into contact isnt it quite normal to try and do it with an explosive movement and maximum power? Wouldnt that be generated by exactly what you describe.

I do think its not entirely clear cut.  

I think thats a fair comment, but even so it looked an unnatural way to enter contact... maybe thats the way he ethers contact sometimes or maybe it was nasty. I would guess if you looked back over his career that he doesn't go into contact with that body position ever

Watching it yesterday, admittedly while cooking dinner, I did not feel it was a deliberate attempt to knee a guy in the back. I would want to see all the replays from different angles at full speed before making my mind up definitively as slo-mo never gives a true picture.

So you're saying it's deliberate because you're guessing ?

Players typically lower their centre of gravity and lead with their upper body so they can pump their legs. Looks like a sly deliberate knee imo.

Lets face it, it's pretty clear cut. If it happened in football, it would be 6-9 months ban. Rugby always has this "was it deliberate" question - he'll probably get away with 2 matches. Never forget this is the Sport that didn't punish Mealamu & Umaga for the assault on O'Driscoll.

I bet that the guy who said he deserves an oscar yesterday feels like a right eejit. What a moron.

ebop wrote:Players typically lower their centre of gravity and lead with their upper body so they can pump their legs. Looks like a sly deliberate knee imo.

I'd agree with that, i doubt Pape normally enters rucks even more upright than normal running

Shizer. Hope he's ok and back soon.

John Cregan wrote:Never forget this is the Sport that didn't punish Mealamu & Umaga for the assault on O'Driscoll.

Agree, Jamie Heaslip got 5 weeks for kneeing McCaw in the head.

ebop wrote:

John Cregan wrote:Never forget this is the Sport that didn't punish Mealamu & Umaga for the assault on O'Driscoll.

Agree, Jamie Heaslip got 5 weeks for kneeing McCaw in the head.

You're bang on. The lack of proper bans for serious incidents almost gives players licence to try it on..............

Yeah that's a good point John, consistency between indiscretions is really lacking. I sympathise with the BOD incident by the way.

ebop wrote:

John Cregan wrote:Never forget this is the Sport that didn't punish Mealamu & Umaga for the assault on O'Driscoll.

Agree, Jamie Heaslip got 5 weeks for kneeing McCaw in the head.

IIRC that was Barnes first game reffing the ABs since their fans nearly lynched him for his RWC fiasco. Barnes refused to penalise McCaw for lying on the wrong side for the first 10 minutes, and Heaslip took the law into his own hands - was Pape thinking the same thing?

Did Pape mean it though????

I mean nobody can say 100%, can they????

I mean he DID shrug his shoulders as though he didn't know what the fuss was all about when the ref pinged him??  

Surely that's gotta mean he's a 100% innocent????


Christ, some of you guys are unbelievable with the constant 'can you say 100% he meant it???" excuses now for virtually everything that happens on a rugby field.  "Did he mean to illegally block, though?", "Was he really 100% concussed?" "Did he really take out a player in the air and not even attempt to go for the ball?"  "Did he mean to come in from the side?"  "Did he mean to take down the scrum?"  "Did he mean to put a foot out and trip the attacking player?"

I know what I saw though - an pronounced impulse reflex just before contact that changed the whole nature of Pape's natural knee movement.  As someone said earlier, it rose, it lunged forward, it made contact exactly where he meant it to go - and his eyes followed it all the way.  We're not looking at 'meaning', we're looking at visuals - as you'd watch a man pull a trigger of a gun.  No slip, no 'not-knowing-where-his-knee-was', no 'rugby-is-a-tough-contact-sport'.

Yeah, but you're not even 100% certain you saw what you saw, Fly!  Maybe you're just in a 100% bad mood and taking it 100% out on Pape?  Maybe you don't really mean to be mean to him but your 100% bias means that you can't help yourself?   Maybe............................................................... maybe.........................................maybe.................

majesticimperialman wrote:(1)  To any one who watched the game yesterday, i dont think any would of thought that Heaslip was as you are saying Milking it.


(2) I don't see how any one can say with 100% certainty can that Pape deberately ran in  to Heaslip[. I do believe that it was a pure accident....Even the TMO could not say it was deliberate or not.

maj,

I am with you on this I don't think he milked it nor do I think it was intentional but as this thread has proved we all have different opinions about on field issues.

All that said what I can't understand is that if Barnes thought it was deliberate which he must have done to award the yellow then it should have been the red.

As Pape was carded for original infringement can he now be suspended again if they look at it and think it deserves further punishment?

BTW does anyone have reference to where it states that all strikes with the knee are an automatic red card offence?

All it says in the laws is :

Any player who infringes any part of the Foul Play Law must be admonished, or cautioned and temporarily suspended for a period of ten minutes’ playing time, or sent-off.

This isnt another invention of TV pundits is it?

The thing that is the most worrying for me as a complete neutral is his body position; if he was just looking to join the maul and add some grunt, his body would be a lot lower, there is no way he can shove from that body position, he is vertical at the moment he makes contact with the maul. That for me shows intent to knee Heaslip or at least collide. It was also in at the side and not from behind the rear foot, he only goes around to the rear after he has made contact.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:(1)  To any one who watched the game yesterday, i dont think any would of thought that Heaslip was as you are saying Milking it.


(2) I don't see how any one can say with 100% certainty can that Pape deberately ran in  to Heaslip[. I do believe that it was a pure accident....Even the TMO could not say it was deliberate or not.

maj,

I am with you on this I don't think he milked it nor do I think it was intentional but as this thread has proved we all have different opinions about on field issues.

All that said what I can't understand is that if Barnes thought it was deliberate which he must have done to award the yellow then it should have been the red.

As Pape was carded for original infringement can he now be suspended again if they look at it and think it deserves further punishment?

Ashley Johnson got a 3 week ban after being 'yellowed' against Leinster the other week.

The famous 'ban after a yellow' goes back to 2002

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/international/1835153.stm

Hound of Harrow wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:(1)  To any one who watched the game yesterday, i dont think any would of thought that Heaslip was as you are saying Milking it.


(2) I don't see how any one can say with 100% certainty can that Pape deberately ran in  to Heaslip[. I do believe that it was a pure accident....Even the TMO could not say it was deliberate or not.

maj,

I am with you on this I don't think he milked it nor do I think it was intentional but as this thread has proved we all have different opinions about on field issues.

All that said what I can't understand is that if Barnes thought it was deliberate which he must have done to award the yellow then it should have been the red.

As Pape was carded for original infringement can he now be suspended again if they look at it and think it deserves further punishment?

Ashley Johnson got a 3 week ban after being 'yellowed' against Leinster the other week.

The famous 'ban after a yellow' goes back to 2002

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/international/1835153.stm

Cheers Harrow was quite sure, guess will depend on how 'deliberate' the panel view if it he is cited.

Pape is well known for fighting and getting into trouble. He led with the knee which should have been a straight red. Heaslip could have a serious injury now and him going off helped France. An example must be set.


I'd question Bastareaud as well. They said they'd target Sexton during the week and heres Basta tackling him with a flying headbutt. Sexton - the player they said they were targeting - had to go off and get a load of stitches and didn't play well after that.

Pape is an enforcer. Has a few brain farts during a game, costing his team penalties etc he's the french Jim Hamilton. That said this was his 1st yellow card playing for France so I dont count him as a vicious player. Worth making that point before everyone goes on a witch hunt against yet another French thug...and calls for an example to be set when barely anyone was bothered by Healy flying headbutt on Picamoles last year which should have cost Ireland the game.

Am sure Pape will receive a ban and deservedly so and wish the best recovery to Heaslip...

profitius wrote:Pape is well known for fighting and getting into trouble. He led with the knee which should have been a straight red. Heaslip could have a serious injury now and him going off helped France. An example must be set.


I'd question Bastareaud as well. They said they'd target Sexton during the week and heres Basta tackling him with a flying headbutt. Sexton - the player they said they were targeting - had to go off and get a load of stitches and didn't play well after that.

lol, i think your getting a little carried away.

Pape should get a ban and to me (i've only seen a slow mo replay) it does like he did it intentionally.

Regarding Bastareaud, i think thats where you are wrong. He was pretty much standing upright which isn't exactly the best way for a flying headbutt. It's not uncommon for a team to say they are going to target a players channel etc

Maybe the Citing Commission should take into account how long an injured player is out of the game. So if say Heaslip misses 10 games then Pape should miss at least that as well.

The Great Aukster wrote:Maybe the Citing Commission should take into account how long an injured player is out of the game. So if say Heaslip misses 10 games then Pape should miss at least that as well.

Thats what us Tigers fan were saying when Calum Clark snapped Hawkins arm

Pape meant the knee in the back. Heaslp clearly felt it and eventually had to go off.

Citing officer won't do anything.

Just like to apologise for my Oscar comment yesterday, in the heat of the moment and a one or two too many I felt he played for the yellow, obviously I was wrong and wish him a speedy recovery.

TightHEAD wrote:Just like to apologise for my Oscar comment yesterday, in the heat of the moment and a one or two too many I felt he played for the yellow, obviously I was wrong and wish him a speedy recovery.

TightHEAD wrote:Just like to apologise for my Oscar comment yesterday, in the heat of the moment and a one or two too many I felt he played for the yellow, obviously I was wrong and wish him a speedy recovery.

Good man, Tighthead. I did think it a little out of character from the brief bit I know about your posting to date.

TightHEAD wrote:Just like to apologise for my Oscar comment yesterday, in the heat of the moment and a one or two too many I felt he played for the yellow, obviously I was wrong and wish him a speedy recovery.

From my perspective, I cannot see how we can infer from the video the knee was intentional.  It may indeed have been, but I can't tell one way or the other.  To me, this is another one of those injuries where only the perpetrator knows for sure.  Regardless, he should receive a ban.  It was reckless (at the minimum).

I have to wonder if Heaslip had a pre-existing injury of some kind.  In my experience it is fairly difficult, though not impossible, to fracture a vertebrae with that kind of impact.  The back muscles protect the spine to a certain degree.  On the other hand, the term 'vertebral fracture' can mean almost anything from a hairline fracture of one of the small processes which are part or each vertebrae or something major.  I would be shocked if he didn't have an immediate X-Ray and MRI and the results are already known.  This is another of those injuries where no chances can be taken.  Anything close to the spinal column is dangerous.  Let's hope for the best.