Is Liam Williams a liability for Wales?

After reading this Beeb article about his discipline over the last year,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29908162

do you think he knows how to control himself as Howley wants?

I think Williams is a fantastic talent, he clearly gives it his all in every match he plays, but he does have a tendency to make costly disciplinary mistakes. As head coach of Wales how do you get this guy to behave on the field? The last thing we want is a repeat of the 2nd test in SA, which in my opinion was a completely unnecessary shoulder charge.

First off he was not at fault in the 2nd test if NORTH yes ST GEORGE himself had tackled his man first then Williams wouldn't have been in that situation.

Williams is a fantastic attacking instinctive player, yes he has a tendency to give away penalties but no more than forwards who go off their feet or enter from wrong side etc.

Maybe (depsite it not being his fault) the summer tour taught him to try and curb it but he's been the form back in Wales this season and I would have started him at XV>

So for me No he's not a liability

Thing is, in one of his first games back for the Scarlets he picked up a red card, so I'm not entirely convinced he learnt his lesson on the tour, but we'll see.

I don't really want to get into a debate about who was at fault for the Hendricks try, but fact remains he made an illegal shoulder charge, he knew what he was doing and did it anyway which lead to a penalty try.

You brought the debate up with mentioning the 2nd test and if North had done his job then Williams wouldn't be cast as the bad man in it all. Wasn't his red for Scarlets for 2 technical penalty offences, which ok is not good but then again a lot of that is ref interpretation etc rather than an illegal tackle.

Williams looks like a very talented player, but also a bit of a knob (referencing the throat cutting gesture he made to Owen Williams a couple of weeks ago) who can at times be very clumsy.

Is he a liability - I doubt it.

For me, I find it so refreshing when I see a fullback who would rather RUN at the opponents rather than just kick the ball in the air and hope for the best, this kid does not take being tackled as an answer, he will just keep running and wriggling with two or more players ripping into him, and this is the thing, yes he does give it a lot, but he also takes it a lot as well, you never see him complain when he is smashed, he just gets on with it, he is only young, and yes he does need to curb his emotions, but I would not change him for the world, he is a FAR better fullback than Halfpenny, but Halfpenny is a better winger than Liam, which is why I am confused about this weekends selection, but a liability NO. You want to see a liability ? Then watch Cuthbert and North in defence on Saturday, they are the two biggest babies in the Welsh squad, if they had the same attitude as Liam Williams they would be the real deal.

Not too sure of the types of transgressions he has committed for these cards, but I think there are two reasons for players getting carded in contact, the first is being technically deficient, and the second which in my view is more concerning, cowardice.

Biltong wrote:Not too sure of the types of transgressions he has committed for these cards, but I think there are two reasons for players getting carded in contact, the first is being technically deficient, and the second which in my view is more concerning, cowardice.

Biltong, one yellow card was for a supposedly deliberate knock on, when he was clearly making a tackle, the second one was far more cynical as he tripped a player whilst running back.

LordDowlais wrote:

Biltong wrote:Not too sure of the types of transgressions he has committed for these cards, but I think there are two reasons for players getting carded in contact, the first is being technically deficient, and the second which in my view is more concerning, cowardice.

Biltong, one yellow card was for a supposedly deliberate knock on, when he was clearly making a tackle, the second one was far more cynical as he tripped a player whilst running back.

Tripping a player falls under the latter for me

Correct biltong. In the past he has been guilty of cowardly tackles. Aka cheap shots.

Maybe he has put that all behind him. Only time will tell.

quinsforever wrote:Correct biltong. In the past he has been guilty of cowardly tackles. Aka cheap shots.

Maybe he has put that all behind him. Only time will tell.

Care to give any examples ?

LordDowlais wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Correct biltong. In the past he has been guilty of cowardly tackles. Aka cheap shots.

Maybe he has put that all behind him. Only time will tell.

Care to give any examples ?

To be honest the challenge in SA that gave the PT seemed the, for want of a better word, cowardly option.

I would also include the knees in the back of the try scorer - but then so many players do this now. Possibly my biggest bugbear at the moment and I wish refs would penalise it.

LordDowlais wrote:For me, I find it so refreshing when I see a fullback who would rather RUN at the opponents rather than just kick the ball in the air and hope for the best, this kid does not take being tackled as an answer, he will just keep running and wriggling with two or more players ripping into him, and this is the thing, yes he does give it a lot, but he also takes it a lot as well, you never see him complain when he is smashed, he just gets on with it, he is only young, and yes he does need to curb his emotions, but I would not change him for the world, he is a FAR better fullback than Halfpenny, but Halfpenny is a better winger than Liam, which is why I am confused about this weekends selection, but a liability NO. You want to see a liability ? Then watch Cuthbert and North in defence on Saturday, they are the two biggest babies in the Welsh squad, if they had the same attitude as Liam Williams they would be the real deal.

I agree with what you're saying, but I really want to see if he can control himself, because he does get a bit too excited at times. As long as he doesn't do anything monumentally stupid(I could quite easily see him doing what Stuart Hogg did in our last game against them) in a Welsh shirt again I'm happy to start him at fullback.

You could level many things at Williams, but cowardice? Unlikely.
The shoulder tackle was super-dull, but he could have gone with a swinging arm to dislodge the ball and taken Hendrick's head off, which would have been worse for me.
I think people need to bear in mind that it was only what, 2 or 3 years ago that the guy was a scaffolder, and sometimes it looks like he doesn't quite understand the environment he's in just yet.
He will be a mainstay if the team after this autumn.

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Correct biltong. In the past he has been guilty of cowardly tackles. Aka cheap shots.

Maybe he has put that all behind him. Only time will tell.

Care to give any examples ?

To be honest the challenge in SA that gave the PT seemed the, for want of a better word, cowardly option.

I would also include the knees in the back of the try scorer - but then so many players do this now. Possibly my biggest bugbear at the moment and I wish refs would penalise it.

Yes, and I agree, but not so long back, in Cardiff, I remember St Johnny Wilkinson doing the exact same thing to Johnathan Thomas, he then played no other part in the game due to being practically knocked out, but we were all told that it was not cheap or dirty it was just reckless, plus I have seen countless Samoans/Tongans/Fijians swinging arms like that, but we are all supposed to accept that, because it is their way, that sort of tackle goes on all the time. Do I think it is ok ? No, I do not, but if we are going to single this kid out for THAT particular challenge, then you will have a long, long list of other names to ridicule as well.

A scaffolder eh????????

So that's why he's such a dab hand at taking them down fast?

Sanjay is a cracking player even with his hot head. He's that sort of guy you love to hate but if he was playing for your own team he'd be a loveable rogue kind of character.
As for the red card he saw against us (Ulster) the first yellow he received was nothing more than a mere knock-on as has been said and I always felt there was very little in the trip incident so hardly an example of the guy's hot headedness. He'll settle with experience but when he's not playing my beloved Ulster he's a very exciting player to watch and is the opposite of cowardly.

I think its harsh a) him being labelled as such and b) how he had to apologise to the rest of the team.

firstly... does he have form ala  Butch James? If so coaches have to realise that you can only rein in certain players so much. They play on the edge and if you take them away from that point they lose much of their use. If you don't like it, don't play them. If no, then one tackle shouldn't be how he is defined as a player.

He was not the covering tackler. Others missed their men. Yes he didn't wrap around but that's the margins of rugby. Had he wrapped I think Hendricks would have scored because the impact would have been far less than a shoulder charge.

The one thing Wales should have been wary of is that had they let him score then Steyn would have still have had to make the kick from the 5m line. It was not on the best side for a rightfooted kicker either so Wales would still have been 1 point ahead with the try scored with a tough kick to come. Instead he had an easy shot in front of the posts.

But that's hindsight and that's a lot of expectation on a relative test newbie.

Wales were 17 points ahead at the 30 min mark. I think the team as a whole should have apologised not Williams.

[quote="fa0019"]I think its harsh a) him being labelled as such and b) how he had to apologise to the rest of the team.

I know this is not about whose fault ut was in SA BUT that he had to apologise for it was what really got my back up and why I have little respect for North at the moment as it was his fault in the first instance.

That said if North is making the headlines for the right reasons Saturday and not because of his poor defence then I will be very happy

bedfordwelsh wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I think its harsh a) him being labelled as such and b) how he had to apologise to the rest of the team.

I know this is not about whose fault ut was in SA BUT that he had to apologise for it was what really got my back up and why I have little respect for North at the moment as it was his fault in the first instance.

That said if North is making the headlines for the right reasons Saturday and not because of his poor defence then I will be very happy

North should have been the one apologising.

LordDowlais wrote:Yes, and I agree, but not so long back, in Cardiff, I remember St Johnny Wilkinson doing the exact same thing to Johnathan Thomas, he then played no other part in the game due to being practically knocked out, but we were all told that it was not cheap or dirty it was just reckless, plus I have seen countless Samoans/Tongans/Fijians swinging arms like that, but we are all supposed to accept that, because it is their way, that sort of tackle goes on all the time. Do I think it is ok ? No, I do not, but if we are going to single this kid out for THAT particular challenge, then you will have a long, long list of other names to ridicule as well.

It was Twickenham in 2008 and not really the same challenge.

http://www.rugbydump.com/2008/02/339/jonny-wilkinson-hit-knocks-out-jonathan-thomas

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Yes, and I agree, but not so long back, in Cardiff, I remember St Johnny Wilkinson doing the exact same thing to Johnathan Thomas, he then played no other part in the game due to being practically knocked out, but we were all told that it was not cheap or dirty it was just reckless, plus I have seen countless Samoans/Tongans/Fijians swinging arms like that, but we are all supposed to accept that, because it is their way, that sort of tackle goes on all the time. Do I think it is ok ? No, I do not, but if we are going to single this kid out for THAT particular challenge, then you will have a long, long list of other names to ridicule as well.

It was Twickenham in 2008 and not really the same challenge.

http://www.rugbydump.com/2008/02/339/jonny-wilkinson-hit-knocks-out-jonathan-thomas

So that tackle was ok then was it ?

It was a swinging arm that rapped the side of his face/head and then the shoulder went in afterwards, I suggest you watch the video of it as there is not much of a difference.

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Correct biltong. In the past he has been guilty of cowardly tackles. Aka cheap shots.

Maybe he has put that all behind him. Only time will tell.

Care to give any examples ?

To be honest the challenge in SA that gave the PT seemed the, for want of a better word, cowardly option.

I would also include the knees in the back of the try scorer - but then so many players do this now. Possibly my biggest bugbear at the moment and I wish refs would penalise it.

Yes, and I agree, but not so long back, in Cardiff, I remember St Johnny Wilkinson doing the exact same thing to Johnathan Thomas, he then played no other part in the game due to being practically knocked out, but we were all told that it was not cheap or dirty it was just reckless, plus I have seen countless Samoans/Tongans/Fijians swinging arms like that, but we are all supposed to accept that, because it is their way, that sort of tackle goes on all the time. Do I think it is ok ? No, I do not, but if we are going to single this kid out for THAT particular challenge, then you will have a long, long list of other names to ridicule as well.

Apologies do not remember Wilko one - but would not have defended it.

I do not see why we should accept swinging arm tackles or any tackle that ends up above the shoulder. Does not matter where a player comes from.I really hate the "it started low" excuse. Absolute Love sacks - if you target the upper chest then you are liable if it ends up above the shoulders.

And finally the long list of dickheads who think it is OK to drop their knees into the back of the try scorer. Yes it is long and yes all who do it repeatedly should be manshamed.

So I cannot say bo.ll.ocks but can say silly billy - filters eh.

looking at that footage it is a high challenge by Wilkinson - in part because he aims at the chest and in part because Thomas stoops to try and drive through the tackle. In my book should have been a penalty.

LondonTiger wrote:So I cannot say bo.ll.ocks but can say silly billy - filters eh.

I just use bollox.

ooh I can say dickheads but not the singular - weird

I don't think Williams is a liability. I am not usually one for moving players out of position but I would even consider moving him to 13 and leaving North on the wing. I reckon Williams would make a decent centre and he loves being involved.

I think centre will be norths long term position.

LondonTiger wrote:I think centre will be norths long term position.

Not until he learns how to tackle it wont.

I don't think his defence is good enough to be in the centre

His tackling technique is much more suited to centre than on the wing imo

LondonTiger wrote:His tackling technique is much more suited to centre than on the wing imo

I hope you are right otherwise Christian Leali'ifano will have a field day on Saturday.

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Correct biltong. In the past he has been guilty of cowardly tackles. Aka cheap shots.

Maybe he has put that all behind him. Only time will tell.

Care to give any examples ?

To be honest the challenge in SA that gave the PT seemed the, for want of a better word, cowardly option.

I would also include the knees in the back of the try scorer - but then so many players do this now. Possibly my biggest bugbear at the moment and I wish refs would penalise it.

Yes, and I agree, but not so long back, in Cardiff, I remember St Johnny Wilkinson doing the exact same thing to Johnathan Thomas, he then played no other part in the game due to being practically knocked out, but we were all told that it was not cheap or dirty it was just reckless, plus I have seen countless Samoans/Tongans/Fijians swinging arms like that, but we are all supposed to accept that, because it is their way, that sort of tackle goes on all the time. Do I think it is ok ? No, I do not, but if we are going to single this kid out for THAT particular challenge, then you will have a long, long list of other names to ridicule as well.

Apologies do not remember Wilko one - but would not have defended it.

I do not see why we should accept swinging arm tackles or any tackle that ends up above the shoulder. Does not matter where a player comes from.I really hate the "it started low" excuse. Absolute Love sacks - if you target the upper chest then you are liable if it ends up above the shoulders.

And finally the long list of dickheads who think it is OK to drop their knees into the back of the try scorer. Yes it is long and yes all who do it repeatedly should be manshamed.

The tackle is completely different.

Wilkinson was a swinging arm illegal tackle (a fine line for what is legal and what is not as you never connect arms rather the tackling arm is arced so that it looks like you would).
Williams was a full on rugby league shoulder charge. No arms even attempted.

One is illegal but on the margins of acceptability.. had Thomas been 5 inches higher it would have been legit.

Williams was illegal any way, any height.

Not the point anyhow. It was one tackle and the team should take responsibility for the loss. Without the illegal hit I'm sure Hendricks would have scored. Those are the margins.

Think he had a few cheap shots against the Tigers the other week, but nothing major. He tackled B. Youngs when he was standing around 5 meters away from a ruck. As i said nothing major, just think he's a bit hot headed sometimes.

fa0019 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Correct biltong. In the past he has been guilty of cowardly tackles. Aka cheap shots.

Maybe he has put that all behind him. Only time will tell.

Care to give any examples ?

To be honest the challenge in SA that gave the PT seemed the, for want of a better word, cowardly option.

I would also include the knees in the back of the try scorer - but then so many players do this now. Possibly my biggest bugbear at the moment and I wish refs would penalise it.

Yes, and I agree, but not so long back, in Cardiff, I remember St Johnny Wilkinson doing the exact same thing to Johnathan Thomas, he then played no other part in the game due to being practically knocked out, but we were all told that it was not cheap or dirty it was just reckless, plus I have seen countless Samoans/Tongans/Fijians swinging arms like that, but we are all supposed to accept that, because it is their way, that sort of tackle goes on all the time. Do I think it is ok ? No, I do not, but if we are going to single this kid out for THAT particular challenge, then you will have a long, long list of other names to ridicule as well.

Apologies do not remember Wilko one - but would not have defended it.

I do not see why we should accept swinging arm tackles or any tackle that ends up above the shoulder. Does not matter where a player comes from.I really hate the "it started low" excuse. Absolute Love sacks - if you target the upper chest then you are liable if it ends up above the shoulders.

And finally the long list of silly billy who think it is OK to drop their knees into the back of the try scorer. Yes it is long and yes all who do it repeatedly should be manshamed.

The tackle is completely different.

Wilkinson was a swinging arm illegal tackle (a fine line for what is legal and what is not as you never connect arms rather the tackling arm is arced so that it looks like you would).
Williams was a full on rugby league shoulder charge. No arms even attempted.

One is illegal but on the margins of acceptability.. had Thomas been 5 inches higher it would have been legit.

Williams was illegal any way, any height.

Not the point anyhow. It was one tackle and the team should take responsibility for the loss. Without the illegal hit I'm sure Hendricks would have scored. Those are the margins.

How can you talk such nonsence ? An illegal tackle is exactly what is, an illegal tackle, yes Liam Williams was wrong and he should not have done it, but neither should have Wilkinson have done it either, watch the footage, Johnny Wilkinson was swinging his arm, then he lead with the shoulder, never mind fine lines, illegal is illegal, what Johnny done was against the rules, I could put a spin on Liam Williams's tackle as well. Perhaps if Heindricks was not diving for the line then it would have been more a body check tackle with an attempt to wrap his arms around him (a fine line for what is legal and what is not as you never connect arms rather the tackling arm is arced so that it looks like you would). There, see what I did there.

nathan wrote:Think he had a few cheap shots against the Tigers the other week, but nothing major. He tackled B. Youngs when he was standing around 5 meters away from a ruck. As i said nothing major, just think he's a bit hot headed sometimes.

I was at that game, and let me tell you, yes he did give it out, but he only gave as good as he was getting. Also, the whole affair was like that both sides with multiple players giving the needle, so if you are going to single him out, others should be as well.

Well, he can and has been a liability for Wales and the Scarlets before now. He's also turned in some very good performances for both. Does that make him a liability in general terms? I'm not sure. He has potential but definitely needs to sort out certain aspects of his discipline which are not currently up to standard.

I haven't yet brought up the 2nd SA test seeing as people have rightly pointed out that North was primarily at fault for flopping off a crucial tackle. But that doesn't clear Williams of all guilt in my book. I saw two players attempt to tackle the same guy, one missed and one did it illegally. So neither of them are blameless in my eyes. Your teammate's failure to tackle shouldn't be an excuse for you to fail in a different way. That's just part of the essence of it being a collective team sport: the team i.e. the other players rectify the odd individual error which inevitably occurs.

[quote="Knowsit17
I haven't yet brought up the 2nd SA test seeing as people have rightly pointed out that North was primarily at fault for flopping off a crucial tackle. But that doesn't clear Williams of all guilt in my book. I saw two players attempt to tackle the same guy, one missed and one did it illegally. So neither of them are blameless in my eyes. Your teammate's failure to tackle shouldn't be an excuse for you to fail in a different way. That's just part of the essence of it being a collective team sport: the team i.e. the other players rectify the odd individual error which inevitably occurs.[/quote]

Knowsit,

I totally agree but it was the way that blame was laid solely at Williams' door that got me riled while St George seemed untouchable.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Knowsit,

I totally agree but it was the way that blame was laid solely at Williams' door that got me riled while St George seemed untouchable.

It's not North's fault for the penalty try. A legal attempted tackle would have at least required a wide conversion. Players miss tackled. A full back is expected to make tackles when someone else misses them. If Williams' instinct is an illegal hit he's a liability (unless he players in a team with an unbreakable defensive line.

North is at fault for the try but the penalty try is all on Williams.

Sadly people on here have made their minds up on Liam Williams and have totally dismissed any similar type of play by countless others, including the deity that is Sir Johnny Wilkinson, Liam is still just a young kid, he would have learned from what happened in South Africa, and incidents like that will only make a player better as he gets older, that is of course if he is savvy enough to learn from it, for me players with a bit of an edge to them make them the players they are, I would not change Liam Williams for the world, at least he does not go around talking about being an "ENFORCER" and not living up to it on the pitch.

LordDowlais wrote:Sadly people on here have made their minds up on Liam Williams and have totally dismissed any similar type of play by countless others, including the deity that is Sir Johnny Wilkinson,

The difference is that while Wilkinson should have been penalised - it was a failure in technique in that he went slightly too high. Williams completely bottled it.

You accuse others of ignoring offences by "deities" while you seek to excuse deliberate foul play by your own little boy. You, sir, are as guilty of hypocrisy as those you accuse.

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Sadly people on here have made their minds up on Liam Williams and have totally dismissed any similar type of play by countless others, including the deity that is Sir Johnny Wilkinson,

The difference is that while Wilkinson should have been penalised - it was a failure in technique in that he went slightly too high. Williams completely bottled it.

You accuse others of ignoring offences by "deities" while you seek to excuse deliberate foul play by your own little boy. You, sir, are as guilty of hypocrisy as those you accuse.

Can you please point out to me were I have excused what Liam Williams has done ? Because consistantly through this thread I have said what he has done is WRONG. I will except your apology soon.

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Sadly people on here have made their minds up on Liam Williams and have totally dismissed any similar type of play by countless others, including the deity that is Sir Johnny Wilkinson,

The difference is that while Wilkinson should have been penalised - it was a failure in technique in that he went slightly too high. Williams completely bottled it.

You accuse others of ignoring offences by "deities" while you seek to excuse deliberate foul play by your own little boy. You, sir, are as guilty of hypocrisy as those you accuse.

I wouldn't say he bottled it. It wasn't a mental failure. His positioning was all wrong anyhow which made a wrap around difficult.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:
I haven't yet brought up the 2nd SA test seeing as people have rightly pointed out that North was primarily at fault for flopping off a crucial tackle. But that doesn't clear Williams of all guilt in my book. I saw two players attempt to tackle the same guy, one missed and one did it illegally. So neither of them are blameless in my eyes. Your teammate's failure to tackle shouldn't be an excuse for you to fail in a different way. That's just part of the essence of it being a collective team sport: the team i.e. the other players rectify the odd individual error which inevitably occurs.

Knowsit,

I totally agree but it was the way that blame was laid solely at Williams' door that got me riled while St George seemed untouchable.

bedford,

I get you. It annoys me too when people focus on one and not the other. My solution is simply to point out that both players were technically at fault. The failure of one doesn't justify that of the other and therefore, as it happened, they should both be held to account for squandering a golden opportunity for a famous win (again!)

But if I may guess at why people tend to round on Williams more than North, it's because the former's error was so characteristically unsubtle and undisciplined. North at least doesn't have a reputation for making crucial errors and while he continues to offer the positive aspects of his game, people will be more likely to forgive him the odd one-off. Williams, on the other hand, has built something of a reputation for being hot-headed and for not always being the best decision-maker. The existence of this thread more or less testifies to that reputation.

Knowsit17 wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:
I haven't yet brought up the 2nd SA test seeing as people have rightly pointed out that North was primarily at fault for flopping off a crucial tackle. But that doesn't clear Williams of all guilt in my book. I saw two players attempt to tackle the same guy, one missed and one did it illegally. So neither of them are blameless in my eyes. Your teammate's failure to tackle shouldn't be an excuse for you to fail in a different way. That's just part of the essence of it being a collective team sport: the team i.e. the other players rectify the odd individual error which inevitably occurs.

Knowsit,

I totally agree but it was the way that blame was laid solely at Williams' door that got me riled while St George seemed untouchable.

bedford,

I get you. It annoys me too when people focus on one and not the other. My solution is simply to point out that both players were technically at fault. The failure of one doesn't justify that of the other and therefore, as it happened, they should both be held to account for squandering a golden opportunity for a famous win (again!)

But if I may guess at why people tend to round on Williams more than North, it's because the former's error was so characteristically unsubtle and undisciplined. North at least doesn't have a reputation for making crucial errors and while he continues to offer the positive aspects of his game, people will be more likely to forgive him the odd one-off. Williams, on the other hand, has built something of a reputation for being hot-headed and for not always being the best decision-maker. The existence of this thread more or less testifies to that reputation.

You have got to be kidding me right ? George North has forged his own little reputation for not being able to defend and not being able to tackle, yes he is good going forward with the ball in hand but that's it. Also, I could point out numerous errors that St George has made, it's just because he is a mister nice guy that nothing gets said of him, if he had Liam William's never say die attitude George North, with his undoubted talent, would be one of the best player in the world.

LordDowlais wrote:Sadly people on here have made their minds up on Liam Williams and have totally dismissed any similar type of play by countless others, including the deity that is Sir Johnny Wilkinson

I didn't remember that Wilko tackle and have no trouble saying it would be a penalty today. Thanks for bringing it in to the discussion. It makes for an interesting comparison with Williams but not necessarily in the way you've suggested.

The headline question to this thread is about whether Williams is a liability. That's not just a case of how he plays but how he is perceived to play. Specifically, how referees see him playing.

If Butch James or someone like Trevor Leota, had done the same as Wilkinson, we'd all have said "there he goes again" and, even at the time, it would have been penalized. It was Wilkinson, though, and he has no record of cheap shots, so the ref wasn't looking at it with suspicions of ill-intent. Wilkinson's not the first player to benefit from a halo effect, and he won't be the last.

Williams can be thought of as a liability if he becomes a player that referees go looking for. I think you are right to get angry that Wales have spoken openly about his apology to the team, because that seems like a guaranteed way to draw attention to his record of indiscipline. Williams won't now get the benefit of the doubt and, if he plays on the edge, then that could be a problem. It's much easier for a ref to award a card when they are looking at a player with a reputation for attracting cards.

It's the same kind of problem as referees suddenly spotting Richie McCaw in offside positions. It's up to the player to get back on the right side of the officials (not necessarily on the right side of the offside line).

There aren't many players with a worse reputation than Dylan Hartley, but I don't see him as a liability for us currently, because he holds himself together at Test level. Now I've said that, he'll probably see red at the weekend.

North is fine at making big hits, so long as hes the one leading into the tackle or if they run straight,
Examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc0T0G796rw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mECeRwHllQ0

He just falls off them when they get on his outside.

LordDowlais wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:
I haven't yet brought up the 2nd SA test seeing as people have rightly pointed out that North was primarily at fault for flopping off a crucial tackle. But that doesn't clear Williams of all guilt in my book. I saw two players attempt to tackle the same guy, one missed and one did it illegally. So neither of them are blameless in my eyes. Your teammate's failure to tackle shouldn't be an excuse for you to fail in a different way. That's just part of the essence of it being a collective team sport: the team i.e. the other players rectify the odd individual error which inevitably occurs.

Knowsit,

I totally agree but it was the way that blame was laid solely at Williams' door that got me riled while St George seemed untouchable.

bedford,

I get you. It annoys me too when people focus on one and not the other. My solution is simply to point out that both players were technically at fault. The failure of one doesn't justify that of the other and therefore, as it happened, they should both be held to account for squandering a golden opportunity for a famous win (again!)

But if I may guess at why people tend to round on Williams more than North, it's because the former's error was so characteristically unsubtle and undisciplined. North at least doesn't have a reputation for making crucial errors and while he continues to offer the positive aspects of his game, people will be more likely to forgive him the odd one-off. Williams, on the other hand, has built something of a reputation for being hot-headed and for not always being the best decision-maker. The existence of this thread more or less testifies to that reputation.

You have got to be kidding me right ? George North has forged his own little reputation for not being able to defend and not being able to tackle, yes he is good going forward with the ball in hand but that's it. Also, I could point out numerous errors that St George has made, it's just because he is a mister nice guy that nothing gets said of him, if he had Liam William's never say die attitude George North, with his undoubted talent, would be one of the best player in the world.

You must be thinking of Cuthbert. Like I said, North doesn't have a reputation for this stuff. He's not immune to human error but it doesn't arise often enough for it to be considered characteristic of him. Or if you think it does, then find me some examples.

North at least is known for being a fierce attacker, his latest exploits for Northampton against the O's being just one of many examples. What he offers largely outweighs the mistakes he might occasionally make. In Williams' case, it's not so clear cut. He does some things well but I'm not sure it's enough to compensate for the brain-farts he also experiences. Hence why many refer to him as a liability.

They're not fully comparable cases anyway. You can't learn to never make mistakes as you'll invariably make at least a few along the way. You can however teach yourself to not make stupid mistakes such as Williams often does i.e. high tackles, taking players out in the air and not using the arms.

If Liam Williams learns to curb his emotions then he would be one heck of a player, that's is all I am saying.

As for George North, you must have forgotten what he was like during his last season for the Scarlets, he also carried that form through to Wales as well. I cannot speak about his form for Northampton as I have not seen enough of him, but what I will say is, I hope he proves me wrong during the next 5 weeks.