Jamie Heaslip - Why is he one of Irelands most capped player of the last 5 years? NEW POLL ADDED!!!

There are lots and lots of Heaslip haters. Some of the reasons people dont rate him are absolutly hilarious:

He wears his pants too low.
He tweets too much.
He cant run anymore.
He has a nice haircut.
He owns a restaurant.

However, he is a key player for Ireland and one of the few players who manages to play test after test match without injury. Anyway here is an analysis from the NZ game of why he keeps getting picked for Ireland and what makes him such a key player and consistently one of the first names on the team sheet and in my opinion a bloody good player.

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/jamie-heaslip-ireland-1193036-Nov2013/

Feel free to post your love or hate for Heaslip here.

Hate often seems to go with players who show a lot of early promise then go off the boil for a while.

He does seem to be much more back to form these days but he did have an extended period when he was still getting picked but not up to much, after a stellar start to his career

Simple there has been a lack of competition for the Number 8 shirt.

I think he has been massively underrated. He has changed his game for the good of the team(s) and has done it really effectively. People don't see him as often and thus think he is anonymous.

His tackling, work at the breakdown and link play has been massive for us.

He is a good player but he did have a stinker in the 6 nations. Can't remember if it was vs England or Scotland. Perhaps both.

Decent player though.

When you think he has 60 caps for Ireland,two Lions tours, 3 HCs and 2 Pro12 titles with Leinster and 1 GS with Ireland that's not a bad career so far.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:He has changed his game for the good of the team(s) and has done it really effectively.

Thats great and all, but given we lack ball carriers from 1-15 it would be much better if he could change it back! I do often wish we had a better ball carrying option at 8.

He wasn't as good as some fans thought and wasn't as bad as others thought. There was and still is a serious lack of competition for his place but if can keep up Sunday's showing that would be an aside.

I guess it all comes down to O'Brien - and what he might say after a game.  He certainly said it after that last one.

Ireland and Irish players need to 'grow up'.  

Was that some pseudo psychological stuff again coming from Irish camp, or was it just what a father might say to one of his less mature children?

I think it's the latter.  I think he's bluntly saying that in spite of all the guff we've listened to over the years about injuries, and having to................wait for it wait for it!......... earn the right to go wide, and about us just not being 'the finished article yet', O'Brien is saying the truth is the players know themselves that they simply haven't been willing to play the needed tempo and ferocity of International rugby during International rugby periods.

He's saying they're all smart.  They all know, and knew all along, the intensity and attention to detail needed to play high quality rugby and that they've been simply letting themselves down by continually using an ocean of excuses for seldom doing so.

But the other important point in what he says is that individual players who know they must give totally of themselves physically must know and be confident that their team mates (all of them) will do the same - as there is nothing as soul destroying as one or two players giving it their all as most of the others stay in chug along Pro12 mode.

So I think his main message was that the New Zealand game effort requires 100% intensity from all players and that when it comes from all, Ireland will be a force to be reckoned with.

So Heaslip - if he plays like he did on Sunday, we cetainly won't be looking for any other 8s to replace him - but we will still want 8 alternatives to compliment him and add to his work, either in a first or second half (as Schmidt is already alluding to - increasing the pool in order to sustain tempo).  But his work, and O'Brien's work, and Best's work and O'Connell's work etc, - as individuals - will come to nothing if it's not a complete team 100% commitment into each and every International game.

He was truly word class and possibly our best player for a couple of years and whilst he has definitely not played as badly as some have made out he hasn't quite reached those heights since. Here's hoping Sunday marks a return to that form.

In answer to the OP's question, he is a consistent player, has stayed injury free and has faced a lack of competition for his spot.

is there or has their been anyone better sitting on the sidelines over that period?

Perhaps he gets over shadowed by O'Brien a little with his charges and when Ferris was playing (that's a while back now come to think of it) the huge hits he would put in.

Doesn't mean he's not a decent player. In the NH there are quite a few noted no.8 now and he's slipped a little down the pecking order but still, he's a decent test player.

fa0019 wrote:is there or has their been anyone better sitting on the sidelines over that period?

Perhaps he gets over shadowed by O'Brien a little with his charges and when Ferris was playing (that's a while back now come to think of it) the huge hits he would put in.

Doesn't mean he's not a decent player. In the NH there are quite a few noted no.8 now and he's slipped a little down the pecking order but still, he's a decent test player.

First lions tour he was on he looked the best home nations no.8 by some distance. Its not a statement you could make with any certainty any more but then I guess there are a lot more quality challengers now. The captaincy thing didnt really help either

Let's see if he reassumes command of the European 8 position under our new coach. Much too early to say 'he was and is no more'. The Pheonix might arise again

Heaslip was great for a few seasons around 2009.

I think he's went right off the boild personally (or perhaps flattered a bit in 2009???).

He does the dirty work quite well but has lost a lot of his pace from the base.

A decent 8 but probably the worst of all the home nations.

Given the way that modern No 8's are expected to play, I find it hard to imagine a number 8 having a good but anonymous game. Unfortunately Heaslip does this too often.
As others have posted, in 2009 he was the stand out No 8 among the home nations and a shoo in for the B+I Lions test team in SA. Since then there have been too many anonymous performances, such that I think it was a point of debate if he should even be selected for the recent Lions tour. I guess my overall feeling is that all too often he could do better. More performances of the intensity and skill he showed on Sunday would help.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Heaslip was great for a few seasons around 2009.

I think he's went right off the boild personally (or perhaps flattered a bit in 2009???).

He does the dirty work quite well but has lost a lot of his pace from the base.

A decent 8 but probably the worst of all the home nations.

Strange the way he got picked for most tests in both of the last two Lions tours (five out of six tests) than any other home nation 8 and is the only 8 to have got a world player of the year nomination.

Yet not strange that when Faletau played there was a huge improvement in performance of the team.

"Feel free to post your love or hate for Heaslip here."

I don't hate him but I don't rate him.

As I said he was fantastic in 2008/9 but has failed to reach those levels since imo. He was dreadful in the 6N.

For it's down to inconsistency. Despite being consistently selected, Heaslip's form varies wildly from world class to useless. He can vanish for whole tournaments, only to put in a rip roaring performance in the next game.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear in my earlier post.  

No point in being a dashing, line-breaking, Errol Flynn type number 8 if your team aren't organised to take advantage of you, aren't interested in climbing over your back in rapid response support of you, not there to give you the kind of right/left support runners needed to make all your daring do worth the effort.  Even O'Brien in recent years was often caught out in his explosive bits when he realised he was on his own and his team mates were even less ready and willing to respond to his heroics than the opposition were.

Heaslip isn't the only thing that went down in the Irish team over the last number of years - and casual watchers would know Ireland's woes weren't down to one player in one position.  So, in light of the fact that the team in general went way off the boil, the dynamic displays of a rampant 8 can become bloody comical to be blunt about it.  In bad years, sails need trimming... stay at home and try to offer solidity to a underperforming team rather than putting on a cape and going for broke.

When he has the freedom to trust others and a new more aggressive attacking game that everyone is adding to, maybe he'll emerge again to do the TV replay stuff.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Yet not strange that when Faletau played there was a huge improvement in performance of the team.

"Feel free to post your love or hate for Heaslip here."

I don't hate him but I don't rate him.

As I said he was fantastic in 2008/9 but has failed to reach those levels since imo. He was dreadful in the 6N.

I knew Faletau was there somewhere lurking and not being spoken about. To say Heaslip is - is to claim Faletau isn't?

By the way, in response to Exiled. Faletau can be almost invisible to me when on Regional duty...maybe the two players just prioritise?

I'm not a Welsh fan Secretfly, far from it.

I just think Faletau is a much better player and it showed in that final test.

I'd have personally took Beattie & Faletau as 8's in the Lion tour.

To answer the title question: because there are no other real choices at 8 for Ireland so even when he has been off form he has played.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not a Welsh fan Secretfly, far from it.

I just think Faletau is a much better player and it showed in that final test.

I'd have personally took Beattie & Faletau as 8's in the Lion tour.

Well, you have a right to that opinion too Pooly. But we'll see. We'll see. Schmidt isn't Kidney. And I sense Irish player's minds are returning to International after perhaps too long being selfish and holding back for Provincial.

I make no qualms about being a huge Toby fan but that doesn't mean I don't rate Heaslip either.

On form both are world class players, Toby seems a bit more consistent at the moment then again he hasn't been around as long as Heaslip.

Yeah, Faletau is definitely a better player right now- just on form, he's been better than Heaslip and I don't see how anyone can deny that.

Obvioulsy Heaslip has been underperforming for a number of years and if he maintains the level of performance he showed in the New Zealand game its a 50/50 call.

Heaslip has been able to change his game for the benefit of the team, and so keeps getting selected. When Ferris was playing Heaslip had license to carry from the base because Fez was putting in the tackles that Jamie now has to make. Ferris was an animal in the tight exchanges and the team needs someone to do that job. Heaslip has stepped up to the plate and so has to be praised for doing so but otoh he's no Ferris (neither is O'Mahony). He is having to do a job he's not particularly suited to, but Ireland don't have another 6 who can free him up to do the job he excels at.

Far from being inconsistent, I think he has consistently delivered what the coaches have asked him to and that is why he keeps getting picked and why Kidney elevated him to Captain.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think he has been massively underrated. He has changed his game for the good of the team(s) and has done it really effectively. People don't see him as often and thus think he is anonymous.

His tackling, work at the breakdown and link play has been massive for us.

Shocking discipline though. Red & Yellow cards for stupidity internationally.
The worst record of any player clubwise.
For instance Jamie - 8 Yellow Cards in 168 games for Leinster.
Denis Leamy (considered to have poor discipline   3 YC in 112 games for Munster.

Could it be that Heaslip doesn't have anyone really challenging him for the 8 berth?

He is Ireland's established number 8, initially on form (when he was at his best imo during his early days playing in green) but increasingly due to the establishment itself and the fact that no other Irish 8's boast his track record. Or those who could have potentially developed into powerful 8s being used in other positions (O'Brien? O'Mahony?).

Knowsit17 wrote:Could it be that Heaslip doesn't have anyone really challenging him for the 8 berth?

He is Ireland's established number 8, initially on form (when he was at his best imo during his early days playing in green) but increasingly due to the establishment itself and the fact that no other Irish 8's boast his track record. Or those who could have potentially developed into powerful 8s being used in other positions (O'Brien? O'Mahony?).

He lacks the versatility to be moved around. He either starts at 8 or doesn't make the 23. That has helped him bigtime.

The Great Aukster wrote:Heaslip has been able to change his game for the benefit of the team, and so keeps getting selected. When Ferris was playing Heaslip had license to carry from the base because Fez was putting in the tackles that Jamie now has to make. Ferris was an animal in the tight exchanges and the team needs someone to do that job. Heaslip has stepped up to the plate and so has to be praised for doing so but otoh he's no Ferris (neither is O'Mahony). He is having to do a job he's not particularly suited to, but Ireland don't have another 6 who can free him up to do the job he excels at.

Far from being inconsistent, I think he has consistently delivered what the coaches have asked him to and that is why he keeps getting picked and why Kidney elevated him to Captain.

I don't buy that. As Notch alluded to above, why would Heaslip be asked to carry less when we have lacked decent ball carriers in Ireland for a good few years now? O'Brien, Heaslip and O'Mahony are all very well balanced players, so they can switch roles very proficiently. Heaslip carried a lot more than usual against NZ, and for the Lions, but for years he has been very lacklustre going forward. For the record, you can't tackle when your team has the ball, so having a good tackle count is a strange excuse for not carrying much ball. SOB usually has a high tackle count as well as good carrying stats. Ferris was the same.

Ideally you do want an 8 who has a good work rate, just like Heaslip, but just as importantly (maybe more so) you need an 8 to give you some momentum as a primary ball carrier. The likes of Kieran Read, Duane Vermeulen and Toby Faletau all do both. You get some 8s who are very dangerous ball carriers (Picamoles, Morgan, Galan) with not just as high a work rate. However, having an 8 with a high work rate who carries ineffectively is rare and a bit of a waste.

I think many big fans of Heaslip are excusing his anonymous performances as being the mythical "unseen work" that many welsh fans praise Lydiate for when he also has an average game. If Heaslip can be more consistent and play like he did against the All Blacks, he more than deserves his place. This isn't the case though.

I always think Heaslip can make up for his lack of 'brute' with the sparkling link play he's capable of but thats been largely absent for the last few years in green... of course, under Kidney our continuity game in general was very, very poor so maybe now he'll be able to shine in that respect.

Parisse and Read wouldn't be the most physical 8s but they are creative, classic eights who link with the backs and create opportunities for the men around them. Heaslip could be a similar if slightly less world class player in that mould. I just want to see him given license to play, and not be lost in breakdowns and hard graft. I'd rather we picked a 6 who played closer to the ruck to free him up from the role he's playing now.

Notch wrote:I always think Heaslip can make up for his lack of 'brute' with the sparkling link play he's capable of but thats been largely absent for the last few years in green... of course, under Kidney our continuity game in general was very, very poor so maybe now he'll be able to shine in that respect.

Parisse and Read wouldn't be the most physical 8s but they are creative, classic eights who link with the backs and create opportunities for the men around them. Heaslip could be a similar if slightly less world class player in that mould. I just want to see him given license to play, and not be lost in breakdowns and hard graft. I'd rather we picked a 6 who played closer to the ruck to free him up from the role he's playing now.

Just to note last weekend POM was not as obvious as usual but if you look at the game he hit a lorryload of rucks and was instrumental in securing our own ball as well as some important tackles in other words more like a no.6. Heaslip was a lot more obvious than usual.

Yeah O'Mahony had a good game. He's a pretty versatile player, and it's not clear to me that the Munster and Ireland coaches have figured out how to make the best use of his talents yet.

Rory_Gallagher wrote: If Heaslip can be more consistent and play like he did against the All Blacks, he more than deserves his place. This isn't the case though.

Who in the Irish set-up has been consistent though, Rory?  I mean, when we focus on one player we always lose focus on the full picture.  Has Heaslip been alone in his inconsistency?  
Kearney is off and on like a tap in a crowded house.  More off than on, in my opinion.  A welcome return of the emotionally involved Kearney on Sunday.  
O'Connell sometimes minces it with - and minces - the very best, other times he hasn't been at the office.  
Bowe, sometime a full blast performance, other times caught on the wing waiting and waiting and largely unseen in an entire game.  
O'Driscoll, sometimes heroic cut, slash and burn, sometimes a punch drunk idiot wandering around just getting in the way.  
Darcy - well we all know what some people think of him...world hunger and all that...  
Zebo, sometimes a brazen rascal of giddy evasion, other times a non-entity guy walking around with socks down and looking to stay out of trouble.  
Fitzgerald - well a few Bibles has been written on his inconsistency at this stage.
Ross - sometimes Sunday, sometimes the Saturday before.
Sexton - the running, creative 10 who reverted to a bad kicking 10 when in an Irish shirt.

Just which player in Ireland camp in recent times has performed constantly and consistently to the standards required for consistently acceptable International standard rugby?

That's been our constant cry in the last number of years.  Few of them have.  But a team needs to function more than isolated individuals have to, or you just end up looking like an idiot - as for example many times Kearney has as he chased down high balls, collected them and got gobbled up by the opposition as nobody was rushing after him to make his heroics count.  I just don't see how Heaslip can be isolated as the guy who needs to pull up his socks.  All of them needed to.  

Let's see if all of them can keep the standard now set by the New Zealand game.  And - let's see if the players yet to be picked can reach that standard set by the New Zealand game.  It's a team game, they all have a responsibility to make each other look good.  Indeed, as I've just said that, that in itself is a declared philosophy of Schmidt himself.

Well Fly he does wear his trousers quite low so surely thats reason enough to single him out.

There are a number of comments to the extent that he modified his game to suit where the team was at and shouldnt be blamed for not always being at his remarkable best. I hope this indeed is the case, but what about the captaincy? Maybe he just wasnt the right choice but you cant hide as a captain the way you can with 'unseen' work. And his captaincy was poor.

Maybe like Easter he is a good officer but a bad leader...

He is still a good player but he used to be a great one

Re captaincy he had a remarkable record as captain with Leinster prior to his apointment as Ireland captain. Ireland were always going to have a bad six nations last year. For the Italy game for example there were over 15 international players missing. There isnt much anybody could do about that.

Ireland were dreadful v Australia - POC was captain
Ireland were good v Samoa - Heaslip was captain

Does that mean Paul O'Connell is a bad captain? Of course not but a bad six nations campaign doesnt mean Heaslip is a bad captain. Far from it.

Guns - did I not see you recently say on here that Heaslip is a terrible captain?  Possibly even after the Samoa game?

If he pulls his trousers up, he could be a good Captain again....

Anyway, I think I'm outta here until the new year. Enjoy.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Guns - did I not see you recently say on here that Heaslip is a terrible captain?  Possibly even after the Samoa game?

I was being sarcastic. I think he is a very good captain but very unpopular amongst fans and the media. A scapegoat for our dreadful 6N campaign last year. Both the media and fans are very fickle.

Robshaw for example during last years Nov internationals was called a terrible captain because of his indecision v Australia then England beat NZ and they have a good six nations campaign and he is popular again. England get hammered by Wales and he is a bad captain again. Warburton has been criticised a lot too. Heaslip was made captain for a reason and poor results cant detract from that IMO. That said POC is clearly a better option with Best and Heaslip able deputies.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Heaslip was great for a few seasons around 2009.

I think he's went right off the boild personally (or perhaps flattered a bit in 2009???).

He does the dirty work quite well but has lost a lot of his pace from the base.

A decent 8 but probably the worst of all the home nations.

I think this is a bit harsh but also not far of the mark. Since '09 Heaslip has been consistently average, interspersed with upticks of form, some sporadic some sustained for a few games -mostly for Leinster.

When you consider the calibre of international no8's around in recent seasons in both hemispheres then Heaslip simply doesn't measure up well - and I don't accept this donkey work stuff, his influence on games in the key position of no8 too often hasn't been good enough.

One thing about Heaslip though is his core skills are always good but that isn't a substitute for physicality and athleticism.

I think the big issue is how good Ferris and Wallace were, and how good they made everyone else look when they played.

That said he had a good Lions tour and was sensational against the ABs.

Notch wrote:Yeah O'Mahony had a good game. He's a pretty versatile player, and it's not clear to me that the Munster and Ireland coaches have figured out how to make the best use of his talents yet.

Dear boy, I'm afraid you must have had an irony bypass. Here we are in a thread where those who praise Heaslip say 'but he had to change his game- he was doing the unseen work'. POM put in a rather pitiful amount of tackles compared to his backrow partners and barely carried the ball. But 'he hit the rucks' so he had a good game? A forward, hitting rucks? My God, its revolutionary. Throw the man a parade.

In a game where the vast majority of players played between very well and outstanding, POM put in nothing more than an average performance. I thought McLaughlin was a step up when he came on. In, what, twenty five minutes McLaughlin made the same amount of tackles and carried the ball nearly 600% further than O'Mahony. Sorry Notch, you've been drinking from Frankie's Koolaid again. POM is all Munster hype machine and little substance when in green. A different animal for Munster mind. That's the sort of POM i can get behind. Of course he requires TOD in there to do all the unglamorous work for him. I'd rather McLaughlin, Henry or TOD than POM in the Irish backrow. Its a more balanced unit.

Hookey Ireland were 22-10 up when POM went off  

Not that anyone would want to disagree with hookie but McLaughlin when he came went missing for franks try and was all over the shop for the last try. I wouldn't worry too much about hookies analysis...its usually just rubbish. Funnily enough most of the papers and pundits said otherwise...

Sin é wrote: Hookey Ireland were 22-10 up when POM went off  

Reminds me of last years match against Wales.
-Ireland on top for 50 min then POM goes off.
-The opposition start to dominate and Ireland have to make loads of tackles near the end.
-POM criticised for his tackle count.


Stats used without context are damn lies!

Awk Munster petals, have I upset you.  

How many tackles did SOB or Heaslip make during the time POM was on the pitch?  Considerably more.  POM is work shy.  He wants to be the Irish Tom Croft, but he hasn't the speed or athleticism.  If he didn't have the Frankie hype machine telling people that Peter O'Mahony doesn't take a backward step^tm then no one would buy it.  You want him so desperately to be another ligind of the Munster old guard that you can't see past his distinct averageness for Ireland.  I'd rather than TOD and Coughlin every day of the week. Ah but sure, he's a future captain don't you know.  If that's the case, we're doomed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7RIgs3eygo

If you honestly believe that POM going off had anything to do with us losing then you really are utterly indoctrinated.  

For Franks' try he actually goes through/under POC, not McLaughlin.  I wouldn't blame him for it, it was only two yards out. He had nothing to do with the last try- I'm pretty sure he was at the bottom of a ruck.  Watch Madigan's failing arm again. I suppose POM may have done something about that- he does enjoy standing out on the wing after all.

Oh oh...he putting links to dads army clips...bless. The timing is about right for his understanding of rugby.

Clueless as usual hookie...

The aim is not to have to make tackles in the first place hookie - much more tiring. 

That's a wee bit of an over the top reaction there Hookie. Think you should just take a breathe, sit down...  

I'm not suggesting he was one of our best players or even our best backrow, just that he did play fairly well. I would say he's been playing at a similar level to Heaslip for Ireland though Heaslip was better against NZ. Both players leave me unconvinced about how they are being used. I had no concerns about the way they played last weekend though.

Hookisms, you're trying to use stats there to make a point. So how about this. The players wear GPS trackers that track their movement around the field. Thats nothing new but wouldn't you concede its a better reflection of workrate than tackle stats?!


You probably didn't see POM because he was hitting rucks all the time. Why not have a look at the ruck stats instead and you'll see Ireland didn't do too badly against one of the best rucking teams in the world.

No its not a better reflection.  It can certainly add to an overall picture.  The stats I pointed at are a disappointing reflection on a player you rate.  So obviously he must have been doing the 'unseen work'.  Exactly the same argument used to pillory Heaslip.  Your stats might reflect that he was in the vicinity of a ruck, but don't indicate whether he actually hit any, or if he hit any how effective his rucking actually was.  Of course he hit plenty, I'm not suggesting otherwise as I saw him hit many a ruck.  But someone like Falateau for instance, an 'average player' to plenty of Irish fans defending Heaslip, can manage to hit alot of rucks, carry effectively, and invariably put in a vast amount of tackles.  Yet he is 'average' and someone like Heaslip is 'word class' and POM is the second coming who 'never takes a backward step'^tm and a ligind in the making.  

If you have a link to the ruck stats I'll be delighted to look at them and even more delighted to be proved wrong.  I'm not sure where to find them and Google are being remarkably unhelpful. Otherwise he's all Frankie hype machine, little substance.