Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
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Poorfour
whocares
LondonTiger
Exiledinborders
Notch
Kingshu
Mad for Chelsea
Sin é
lostinwales
ScarletSpiderman
Bathman_in_London
Geordie
doctor_grey
GunsGerms
HammerofThunor
Biltong
broadlandboy
Pot Hale
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: Club Rugby
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Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
The ongoing row over the European Cup has brought up a number of issues around qualification methods, financial divvy-up, rest/rotation of players, control of the competition, etc.
I thought it would be interesting to focus on just one of these issues - rest/rotation of players and the use of foreign players to bulk up squads and add particular skills to a team's line-up.
Everyone can see the buying frenzy that has infected French club rugby over the last 5 years, with substantial contracts capturing headline names from South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, Argentina, England, Ireland and Wales, and a lot of players from poorer nations such as Tonga, Fiji, Samoa, and Georgia.
Last year's Heineken Cup final saw Toulon field 13 non-French players to win the cup.
Some saw this as the ultimate perversion of the cup original ideals in helping to promote and develop domestic/indigenous talent in the Six Nations; others saw it as a natural, inevitable development of the professional commercial game akin to its sister sport in soccer.
Whilst it could be argued that what teams within their own domestic or cross-border comp do with their playing squads during league game is their own business, should the European Cup (by whatever name it is called) seek to do more to ensure that domestic playing talent gets its opportunity in order to prepare them for test level - still the biggest revenue generator for many rugby unions across the world?
ERC Regulations state that only a maximum of two "foreign players" can be in a playing squad. This seems to be ignored by all and sundry.
The IRFU impose a limit of four "foreign" or NIQ players on their provinces. This has had its benefits, and still has its drawbacks whereby players in particular positions don't get enough playing time - at league or H Cup level.
Other unions/league have different rules - or in some cases, apparently none at all.
Given the likely, and inevitable, increased buying power that will accrue to the English and French clubs under a new negotiated competition, should part of that agreement seek to regulate the use of foreign players to be used in the European competition? Specifically, I'm not applying this to domestic leagues only the European competition.
Some would argue that restrictions are impossible to enforce due to EU legislation, post Bosman.
Yet, some unions seem to be able to impose limits without sanction.
Rather than limits on foreign players, should there be a positive agreed quota ruling that a squad should field at least say 19/20 players who either play for, or could play for the test team of the union of their club?
Should there be some agreed player management protocols across the three leagues that impose maximum playing time for players?
Rather than complain about other unions rest/rotation policies, should some leagues see this as a positive step, and seek to enforce similar policies?
I'm not seeking to have the whole European Cup row all over again in yet another thread, just simply focus on this one issue, which doesn't seem to be a big priority on any of the parties' agendas.
I thought it would be interesting to focus on just one of these issues - rest/rotation of players and the use of foreign players to bulk up squads and add particular skills to a team's line-up.
Everyone can see the buying frenzy that has infected French club rugby over the last 5 years, with substantial contracts capturing headline names from South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, Argentina, England, Ireland and Wales, and a lot of players from poorer nations such as Tonga, Fiji, Samoa, and Georgia.
Last year's Heineken Cup final saw Toulon field 13 non-French players to win the cup.
Some saw this as the ultimate perversion of the cup original ideals in helping to promote and develop domestic/indigenous talent in the Six Nations; others saw it as a natural, inevitable development of the professional commercial game akin to its sister sport in soccer.
Whilst it could be argued that what teams within their own domestic or cross-border comp do with their playing squads during league game is their own business, should the European Cup (by whatever name it is called) seek to do more to ensure that domestic playing talent gets its opportunity in order to prepare them for test level - still the biggest revenue generator for many rugby unions across the world?
ERC Regulations state that only a maximum of two "foreign players" can be in a playing squad. This seems to be ignored by all and sundry.
The IRFU impose a limit of four "foreign" or NIQ players on their provinces. This has had its benefits, and still has its drawbacks whereby players in particular positions don't get enough playing time - at league or H Cup level.
Other unions/league have different rules - or in some cases, apparently none at all.
Given the likely, and inevitable, increased buying power that will accrue to the English and French clubs under a new negotiated competition, should part of that agreement seek to regulate the use of foreign players to be used in the European competition? Specifically, I'm not applying this to domestic leagues only the European competition.
Some would argue that restrictions are impossible to enforce due to EU legislation, post Bosman.
Yet, some unions seem to be able to impose limits without sanction.
Rather than limits on foreign players, should there be a positive agreed quota ruling that a squad should field at least say 19/20 players who either play for, or could play for the test team of the union of their club?
Should there be some agreed player management protocols across the three leagues that impose maximum playing time for players?
Rather than complain about other unions rest/rotation policies, should some leagues see this as a positive step, and seek to enforce similar policies?
I'm not seeking to have the whole European Cup row all over again in yet another thread, just simply focus on this one issue, which doesn't seem to be a big priority on any of the parties' agendas.
Pot Hale- Posts : 7780
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 62
Location : North East
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
EU & Kopak players are not deemed "foreign" under EU law which takes precedence.The IRFU basically run their provinces so can choose who they employ.The RFU offer a finacial incentive to have a set number of EQ players in their match day squad. It would seem that it would also displease the IRB
"What he does expect to see is a continuation of the South Seas rugby migration to Europe – and whatever his national coach might say, the International Rugby Board wants to see it too. The sport’s governing body has never said so publicly, but it sees club rugby in England and France as a valuable finishing school for the Fijians, Samoans and Tongans – a place where they can learn the harsher, darker realities of the union game at professional level and use their new-found expertise as a counterweight to the wilder, more exuberant and infinitely less structured brand of rugby they play in the islands."
A quote from an article in the Indy http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/news-comment/aviva-premiership-the-invasion-of-south-seas-players-8845299.html
"What he does expect to see is a continuation of the South Seas rugby migration to Europe – and whatever his national coach might say, the International Rugby Board wants to see it too. The sport’s governing body has never said so publicly, but it sees club rugby in England and France as a valuable finishing school for the Fijians, Samoans and Tongans – a place where they can learn the harsher, darker realities of the union game at professional level and use their new-found expertise as a counterweight to the wilder, more exuberant and infinitely less structured brand of rugby they play in the islands."
A quote from an article in the Indy http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/news-comment/aviva-premiership-the-invasion-of-south-seas-players-8845299.html
broadlandboy- Posts : 1153
Join date : 2011-09-21
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
It may not necessarily be a bad thing for the sport in terms of spectacle, the football Premier League is arguably a lot better to watch than international football because of the quality of the clubs. And this could increase club rugby's popularity.
On the other hand, not producing your own talent makes it difficult to follow a team, why would I support Cardiff City when they only have a couple of Welsh players in their first team?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_City_F.C.#First-team_squad
Technically I should be supporting the Club because they represent Cardiff, my home, but theres something that irks me about it.
On the other hand, not producing your own talent makes it difficult to follow a team, why would I support Cardiff City when they only have a couple of Welsh players in their first team?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_City_F.C.#First-team_squad
Technically I should be supporting the Club because they represent Cardiff, my home, but theres something that irks me about it.
Guest- Guest
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
It is a fair question Pot Hale.
But I don't think it will change.
From the outside it looks to me like the Tycoons who own the clubs in France are more concerned about their ego's than what is good for French rugby.
But I don't think it will change.
From the outside it looks to me like the Tycoons who own the clubs in France are more concerned about their ego's than what is good for French rugby.
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
One of the reasons the WRU, etc get away with the player quotas is because it's linked to funding. The £6M the WRU give the Regions is not just for player release, but also for meeting the WQ player quota. The RFU effectively have one which is 65% of the playing squad on average over the year. If a club doesn't meet this they don't get a payout. I believe they currently all do and the generally numbers of the foriegn players has gone down a little (I think it's about 70% English instead of 65% now, or 193 players instead of 179). Also you can have a limit as long as no-one challenges it in court. In French or England a club could challenge the legality of limits if they were forced on them.
Unfortunately the FFR seem to be completely unwilling to give anything to get anything.
Unfortunately the FFR seem to be completely unwilling to give anything to get anything.
HammerofThunor- Posts : 10471
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Location : Hull, England - Originally Potteries
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
What do you mean by 'get away with player quotas? Are you suggesting that they're breaking laws by having quotas? They might be breaking laws if they advertised for positions and then didn't allow foreign players to apply, but I've never seen a job advert for a tight head prop, for example, at a professional club. Clubs/regions/franchises approach the players they want and offer them a job. They are therefore not discriminating against anyone as they're not turning down/excluding/sacking/etc. based on being 'foreign'. There's no rule in rugby that teams have to offer jobs to foreign players, so when they don't no rules are broken.HammerofThunor wrote:One of the reasons the WRU, etc get away with the player quotas is because it's linked to funding. The £6M the WRU give the Regions is not just for player release, but also for meeting the WQ player quota. The RFU effectively have one which is 65% of the playing squad on average over the year. If a club doesn't meet this they don't get a payout. I believe they currently all do and the generally numbers of the foriegn players has gone down a little (I think it's about 70% English instead of 65% now, or 193 players instead of 179). Also you can have a limit as long as no-one challenges it in court. In French or England a club could challenge the legality of limits if they were forced on them.
Unfortunately the FFR seem to be completely unwilling to give anything to get anything.
Guest- Guest
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
I would like to see a pan European cap on foreign players. 3 per team 5 per squad.
It does very little for NH rugby IMO to have such an influx of overpaid mercenaries. Toulon for example are the most horrible uninteresting team ever to win the Hcup. The best champs are the ones that have strong community roots IMO, Leicester, Toulouse, Leinster and Munster for example.
It does very little for NH rugby IMO to have such an influx of overpaid mercenaries. Toulon for example are the most horrible uninteresting team ever to win the Hcup. The best champs are the ones that have strong community roots IMO, Leicester, Toulouse, Leinster and Munster for example.
GunsGerms- Posts : 12542
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Somehow think that the Bosman Ruling would prohibit that
broadlandboy- Posts : 1153
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Damn Belgians.broadlandboy wrote:Somehow think that the Bosman Ruling would prohibit that
GunsGerms- Posts : 12542
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Why should Rugby follow EU regulation? Rugby should follow the dictates of soccer-playing Eurocrats?broadlandboy wrote:EU & Kopak players are not deemed "foreign" under EU law which takes precedence.....
Really?
We are Rugby. Does anyone here think a soccer-playing can take on a Rugby player?
No.
Methinks revolution is in the air. Freedom from EU for Rugby. Rugby uber alles.........
doctor_grey- Posts : 11870
Join date : 2011-04-30
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
I'd like to see a cap on foreigners per team...however I think the RFU/ Prem League have got round this and England are subsequently benefitting from the bonus to clubs fielding lots of English players. Hence more financially rewarding to bring through quality youngsters than to play woeful average joe foreigner journeymen.
France in a few years could be in serious trouble.
The England Football Association could learn alot.
Curiously this is what the German football Federation did after two successive failures at major competitions...the result..European Club champions with mostly german players, back as one of the best teams in the world.
France in a few years could be in serious trouble.
The England Football Association could learn alot.
Curiously this is what the German football Federation did after two successive failures at major competitions...the result..European Club champions with mostly german players, back as one of the best teams in the world.
Geordie- Posts : 28323
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Rugby uber alles... Its got a ring to it...
The direction the various RFU's seem to be going in is to reward teams who have a certain % of qualified players, rather than penalising those who do (although arguably it amounts to the same thing).
I wonder if an unintended (and unwelcome) effect of a tightening up on foreign players will mean a reduction in the quality of Samoa, Argentina, Georgia etc, or pretty much everyone who doesn't have a strong domestic league. France will still be their destination of choice, but surely the maddness there can't last for ever.
The direction the various RFU's seem to be going in is to reward teams who have a certain % of qualified players, rather than penalising those who do (although arguably it amounts to the same thing).
I wonder if an unintended (and unwelcome) effect of a tightening up on foreign players will mean a reduction in the quality of Samoa, Argentina, Georgia etc, or pretty much everyone who doesn't have a strong domestic league. France will still be their destination of choice, but surely the maddness there can't last for ever.
Bathman_in_London- Posts : 2266
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Whats the Bosman ruling? I thought that was something to do with signing players who are nearing the end of their contract.broadlandboy wrote:Somehow think that the Bosman Ruling would prohibit that
ScarletSpiderman- Posts : 9944
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
It seems all about getting the balance right - and that is easier for us English in that there are enough teams to absorb NEQ and still have a fair number of EQ's in key positions. I don't think anyone would deny that the PI players in particular bring a lot to the league.
It is hard to get that balance right though. All I can say for certain is that in France the balance is currently wrong
It is hard to get that balance right though. All I can say for certain is that in France the balance is currently wrong
lostinwales- lostinwales
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
It was the Welsh, Irish and Scots decision to move to regions as opposed to working on their club league structure as the English and French have done. If this has resulted in LESS players available (but possibly of a higher quality) then surely its down to them...lostinwales wrote:It seems all about getting the balance right - and that is easier for us English in that there are enough teams to absorb NEQ and still have a fair number of EQ's in key positions. I don't think anyone would deny that the PI players in particular bring a lot to the league.
It is hard to get that balance right though. All I can say for certain is that in France the balance is currently wrong
Geordie- Posts : 28323
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Taken from BBC
THE BOSMAN RULING EXPLAINED
On 15 December 1995, the European Court of Justice ruled that players should be free to move when their contracts had expired
It also ruled that EU clubs could hire any number of European Union players
I Believe this also covers Kopak players as well
THE BOSMAN RULING EXPLAINED
On 15 December 1995, the European Court of Justice ruled that players should be free to move when their contracts had expired
It also ruled that EU clubs could hire any number of European Union players
I Believe this also covers Kopak players as well
broadlandboy- Posts : 1153
Join date : 2011-09-21
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Percentages over the last 3 weeks:
Surprised at the size of Leicester non england qualified contingent at 40%.
Surprised at the size of Leicester non england qualified contingent at 40%.
Sin é- Posts : 13725
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Interesting figures. Thanks for posting that.Sin é wrote:Percentages over the last 3 weeks:
Surprised at the size of Leicester non england qualified contingent at 40%.
GunsGerms- Posts : 12542
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Very interesting...alot of what i expected..but certainly a few surprises.
Curious why ours were so low...but we have a large Scottish contingent.
Curious why ours were so low...but we have a large Scottish contingent.
Geordie- Posts : 28323
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
I found it interesting that in both the Aviva and the Rabo it seems to be (in general) the weaker teams who have the least home grown players. Probably because you're more likely to get international recognition playing for the bigger clubs and as such the better homegrown players tend to look elsewhere. London Irish are certainly a good example of this, the amount of quality EQ players who have left in the last few seasons is very high indeed...
Mad for Chelsea- Posts : 12103
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Wales, Ireland and Scotland don't have the playing population to support a bigger number of professional teams. In simple population terms, You're looking at 3-7m vs 55/60m.GeordieFalcon wrote:It was the Welsh, Irish and Scots decision to move to regions as opposed to working on their club league structure as the English and French have done. If this has resulted in LESS players available (but possibly of a higher quality) then surely its down to them...lostinwales wrote:It seems all about getting the balance right - and that is easier for us English in that there are enough teams to absorb NEQ and still have a fair number of EQ's in key positions. I don't think anyone would deny that the PI players in particular bring a lot to the league.
It is hard to get that balance right though. All I can say for certain is that in France the balance is currently wrong
You can't change populations that much, but you can control/affect the number of indigenous players that get a chance to develop their talent/skills against a number of foreign player imports.
In fact, I've said specifically that the numbers playing in the league could be left to free market principles, and only the European Comps should have positive quotas of domestic talent in order to develop skills for test level.
Pot Hale- Posts : 7780
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
This bit is key - there's nothing saying they have to hire x % of their players from abroad, so they can have none if they want and it doesn't break any rules.broadlandboy wrote:Taken from BBC
THE BOSMAN RULING EXPLAINED
On 15 December 1995, the European Court of Justice ruled that players should be free to move when their contracts had expired
It also ruled that EU clubs could hire any number of European Union players
I Believe this also covers Kopak players as well
Guest- Guest
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
True it is their choice but a restriction can not be imposed on them. You can encourage them to like the RFU do, that is the difference
broadlandboy- Posts : 1153
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
You can impose a restriction or promote a quota if the three participating leagues/six rugby unions in any new European comp are getting together to decide how it will be run - if every league agrees to it, along with any proposed changes to financial split, participation, qualification, etc. Encouragement comes in many guises - it's up to the parties to decide how it can be done. As the old saw goes - if there's a will, there's a way.broadlandboy wrote:True it is their choice but a restriction can not be imposed on them. You can encourage them to like the RFU do, that is the difference
Pot Hale- Posts : 7780
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Truly, if there is will..........Pot Hale wrote:You can impose a restriction or promote a quota if the three participating leagues/six rugby unions in any new European comp are getting together to decide how it will be run - if every league agrees to it, along with any proposed changes to financial split, participation, qualification, etc. Encouragement comes in many guises - it's up to the parties to decide how it can be done. As the old saw goes - if there's a will, there's a way.broadlandboy wrote:True it is their choice but a restriction can not be imposed on them. You can encourage them to like the RFU do, that is the difference
I would certainly like to see a requirement for a % national Qualifieds in the match day 15 and 22 for each club in the Premiership. Supports more promotion of players through the ranks and enhances the national team.
it was rightly said that foreign imports can help a team and broaden the appeal of the game. Additionally, it can help teams survive International windows if the imports are not representing their national teams. As already said it is about the balance. And it is about the carrot and stick.
Going to a larger view, I would ike to see the same parameters applied to all professional clubs in the NH. % Qualifieds in each match day 15 and 22. Plus (sit down for this), one salary cap which is slightly attainable for all. Then we even the playing field and can move on to more mundane subjects such as keeping a European Rugby competition.
So: Vive le revolution..........
doctor_grey- Posts : 11870
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
As stated earlier in the thread does the IRB want to restrict the number of foreigners as it sees the Aviva/Top14 as a way of advancing the level from Unions who dont have a profesional team, if half the players in the PRL/LNR teams are non eligable it should still leave at least 6 qualified players in each position, I can see where this would be a problem if the union has less pro teams but if (as most seem to) we want the game to grow we need somewhere for those players to play professionally. Unless those Unions are worried that they will be overtaken by other Unions internationally. Also you seem to restrict the competition where as I believe that the PRL/LNR proposal includes teams from other Unions
broadlandboy- Posts : 1153
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Doc Due to the differing tax laws in each country,imho, it would be very difficult to have a salary cap across national borders. Ireland has had to lose the tax breaks that players used to get due to the Financial Bail out it got so I can now see more Irish players looking abroad.
broadlandboy- Posts : 1153
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
No they haven't. The tax break still applies.broadlandboy wrote:Doc Due to the differing tax laws in each country,imho, it would be very difficult to have a salary cap across national borders. Ireland has had to lose the tax breaks that players used to get due to the Financial Bail out it got so I can now see more Irish players looking abroad.
In the scheme of things, its quite a small amount of money - certainly nothing in comparison to what the provinces generate for the economy.
Sin é- Posts : 13725
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Sorry if incorrect but taken from another site
Yep, the Irish Tax Breaks for sportsmen were announced in last Years Budget and implemented as from the 1st of April 2013, along with a heap load of very unpopular Austerity measures
Yep, the Irish Tax Breaks for sportsmen were announced in last Years Budget and implemented as from the 1st of April 2013, along with a heap load of very unpopular Austerity measures
broadlandboy- Posts : 1153
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Can you provide a link please where it says that the tax breaks for Irish sports people are no longer available?broadlandboy wrote:Sorry if incorrect but taken from another site
Yep, the Irish Tax Breaks for sportsmen were announced in last Years Budget and implemented as from the 1st of April 2013, along with a heap load of very unpopular Austerity measures
Sin é- Posts : 13725
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
It was in response to this question
Re: McCafferty promises no u-turn on Europe
Posted by: Farmboy (IP Logged)
Date: 01 October, 2013 16:09
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Irish tax break has gone as part of the finacial bail out of the Irish economy
About 2/3 down the page with the response a couple of posts later
http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s103.htm?106,14176075,page=32
Re: McCafferty promises no u-turn on Europe
Posted by: Farmboy (IP Logged)
Date: 01 October, 2013 16:09
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Irish tax break has gone as part of the finacial bail out of the Irish economy
About 2/3 down the page with the response a couple of posts later
http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s103.htm?106,14176075,page=32
broadlandboy- Posts : 1153
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Crickey, some clueless people around (and what arrogance)!broadlandboy wrote:It was in response to this question
Re: McCafferty promises no u-turn on Europe
Posted by: Farmboy (IP Logged)
Date: 01 October, 2013 16:09
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Irish tax break has gone as part of the finacial bail out of the Irish economy
About 2/3 down the page with the response a couple of posts later
http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s103.htm?106,14176075,page=32
The tax exemptions for sports people in Ireland are still there*! Would you ever mind setting the tigers straight on that one.
(If they were not, no doubt Ronan O'Gara would be plying his trade as a player/coach with Clermont this season)!
Sin é- Posts : 13725
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
The reply came from an Irish poster so as said sorry if incorrect
broadlandboy- Posts : 1153
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Would you mind correcting them, please.broadlandboy wrote:The reply came from an Irish poster so as said sorry if incorrect
Also worth nothing that Sporting Organisations are tax exempt in Ireland and that is the reason why the IRB, ERC, Celtic League, British & Irish Lions are all based in Dublin.
Sin é- Posts : 13725
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Are you Farmboy? The Irish poster (Catchyerselfon) is explaining that the tax breaks remain in place. Maybe I have missed something (it does tend to happen), but there doesn't seem to be any poster claiming that the tax breaks were scrapped.broadlandboy wrote:The reply came from an Irish poster so as said sorry if incorrect
Guest- Guest
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
I'm not arguing that they would restrict the number of foreigners in the Aviva or Top 14. Not sure who you're referring to when you say "you seem to restrict the competition" and what you mean by this?broadlandboy wrote:As stated earlier in the thread does the IRB want to restrict the number of foreigners as it sees the Aviva/Top14 as a way of advancing the level from Unions who dont have a profesional team, if half the players in the PRL/LNR teams are non eligable it should still leave at least 6 qualified players in each position, I can see where this would be a problem if the union has less pro teams but if (as most seem to) we want the game to grow we need somewhere for those players to play professionally. Unless those Unions are worried that they will be overtaken by other Unions internationally. Also you seem to restrict the competition where as I believe that the PRL/LNR proposal includes teams from other Unions
Pot Hale- Posts : 7780
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Pot, You talk about 3 leagues/6 Unions there are more than 6 Unions in Europe
broadlandboy- Posts : 1153
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Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
I remember reading this article in 2009 and thought it would be good
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7980339.stm
French...Clubs will be set a minimum number of home-grown players and will be allowed to have no more than 30% of their squad from overseas by the 2011/12 season.
Glad the LNR stuck with that deal, Toulon would be 70% homegrown now at least, howed they allow it to drop to 30%?
Maybe Toulon misread it at thought it was no more than 30% allowed to be homegrown. They're going to feel silly when they reread it and realise their mistake.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7980339.stm
French...Clubs will be set a minimum number of home-grown players and will be allowed to have no more than 30% of their squad from overseas by the 2011/12 season.
Glad the LNR stuck with that deal, Toulon would be 70% homegrown now at least, howed they allow it to drop to 30%?
Maybe Toulon misread it at thought it was no more than 30% allowed to be homegrown. They're going to feel silly when they reread it and realise their mistake.
Kingshu- Posts : 4024
Join date : 2011-05-30
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
You're quite correct, there are more than six. I was applying the proposal to the top tier comp where I think it's most needed. Indeed, you could argue for having a lower quota in the second and third tiers given a greater dependence on journeymen for many of those teams.broadlandboy wrote:Pot, You talk about 3 leagues/6 Unions there are more than 6 Unions in Europe
Pot Hale- Posts : 7780
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 62
Location : North East
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Need to remember that both the Armitages count as home grown due to living in France for a few years as teenagers. Still not 70% I'm sure.Kingshu wrote:I remember reading this article in 2009 and thought it would be good
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7980339.stm
French...Clubs will be set a minimum number of home-grown players and will be allowed to have no more than 30% of their squad from overseas by the 2011/12 season.
Glad the LNR stuck with that deal, Toulon would be 70% homegrown now at least, howed they allow it to drop to 30%?
Maybe Toulon misread it at thought it was no more than 30% allowed to be homegrown. They're going to feel silly when they reread it and realise their mistake.
HammerofThunor- Posts : 10471
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Hull, England - Originally Potteries
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
It's lead to a grim trend where foreign players are brought in at Academy level and after their 3 year Academy contract finishes they graduate to the first team squad as fully qualified French 'homegrown' players through residency.
Like this man;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noa_Nakaitaci
There may well be more Noas.
Like this man;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noa_Nakaitaci
There may well be more Noas.
Last edited by Notch on Wed 02 Oct 2013, 5:27 am; edited 1 time in total
Notch- Moderator
- Posts : 25635
Join date : 2011-02-10
Age : 36
Location : Belfast
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
I agree mate. Does little to grow the game at home and achieves only short term gain. There are always exceptions to the rule, but I prefer a strict limit on non-qualifieds (or rather a requirement for a % national-qualifieds). And that has to be applied iun principle to academies as well.Notch wrote:It's lead to a grim trend where foreign players are brought in at Academy level and after their 3 year Academy contract finishes they graduate to the first team squad as fully qualified French 'homegrown' players through residency.
Like this man;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noa_Nakaitaci
and this chap;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Le_Roux
doctor_grey- Posts : 11870
Join date : 2011-04-30
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Just to clarify, the 'homegrown' has nothing to do with eligibility to play for France (Armitage x2 are not qualified for France). It's to do with whether they were trained in France. This will of course lead to players becoming qualified for France but that's not the aim.Notch wrote:It's lead to a grim trend where foreign players are brought in at Academy level and after their 3 year Academy contract finishes they graduate to the first team squad as fully qualified French 'homegrown' players through residency.
Like this man;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noa_Nakaitaci
There may well be more Noas.
HammerofThunor- Posts : 10471
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Hull, England - Originally Potteries
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Oh and Le Roux doesn't count as a JIFF, I think. You need 3 years before 21 and he only had 1.
He's had about 4 years in France. Most people seem to think 5 years is enough for residency. Would him being capped next year instead of this one suddenly make it ok? Some people have an issue with residency qualification at all. Some of these same people have no problem with guys being qualified where he happened to be born (Heathcote).
He's had about 4 years in France. Most people seem to think 5 years is enough for residency. Would him being capped next year instead of this one suddenly make it ok? Some people have an issue with residency qualification at all. Some of these same people have no problem with guys being qualified where he happened to be born (Heathcote).
HammerofThunor- Posts : 10471
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Hull, England - Originally Potteries
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Regarding Nakaitaci, according to the link he moved to France in 2011? And played in for France in 2013? That's not 3 years anyway you cut it. Also, he is also not a JIFF player as he seemed to move to France at 20 as well.
HammerofThunor- Posts : 10471
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Hull, England - Originally Potteries
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Broadland -: cheers for clearing up the Bosman thing for me
ScarletSpiderman- Posts : 9944
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 39
Location : Pembs
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Sorry Griff but having worked in HR I can tell you that you cannot get round the law by not advertising posts and approaching people directly. For instance I could not have a policy of not employing black people but avoid legislation by just approaching white people. Recruitment policy and practice have to comply with the law. It is fine to recruit people by direct approach but you would need to show that this is not a way to bypass the law.Griff wrote:What do you mean by 'get away with player quotas? Are you suggesting that they're breaking laws by having quotas? They might be breaking laws if they advertised for positions and then didn't allow foreign players to apply, but I've never seen a job advert for a tight head prop, for example, at a professional club. Clubs/regions/franchises approach the players they want and offer them a job. They are therefore not discriminating against anyone as they're not turning down/excluding/sacking/etc. based on being 'foreign'. There's no rule in rugby that teams have to offer jobs to foreign players, so when they don't no rules are broken.HammerofThunor wrote:One of the reasons the WRU, etc get away with the player quotas is because it's linked to funding. The £6M the WRU give the Regions is not just for player release, but also for meeting the WQ player quota. The RFU effectively have one which is 65% of the playing squad on average over the year. If a club doesn't meet this they don't get a payout. I believe they currently all do and the generally numbers of the foriegn players has gone down a little (I think it's about 70% English instead of 65% now, or 193 players instead of 179). Also you can have a limit as long as no-one challenges it in court. In French or England a club could challenge the legality of limits if they were forced on them.
Unfortunately the FFR seem to be completely unwilling to give anything to get anything.
Exiledinborders- Posts : 1645
Join date : 2012-03-18
Location : Scottish Borders
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Having worked in a large Swansea based institution for a number of years I know from bitter personal experience that what the law says and what that institution tried to get away with were completely different things. Such behavior is not limited to the said institution, and is probably common in many others, but it was particularly bad there.
lostinwales- lostinwales
- Posts : 13270
Join date : 2011-06-09
Location : Out of Wales :)
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Pretty sure he was in the Clermont academy for a couple of years before making his first team debut in 2011.HammerofThunor wrote:Regarding Nakaitaci, according to the link he moved to France in 2011? And played in for France in 2013? That's not 3 years anyway you cut it. Also, he is also not a JIFF player as he seemed to move to France at 20 as well.
That he coudl be capped in 2013 suggests this is the case.
LondonTiger- Moderator
- Posts : 23485
Join date : 2011-02-10
Re: Foreign Player Limits or Domestic Player quotas?
Exiledinborders wrote:Sorry Griff but having worked in HR I can tell you that you cannot get round the law by not advertising posts and approaching people directly. For instance I could not have a policy of not employing black people but avoid legislation by just approaching white people. Recruitment policy and practice have to comply with the law. It is fine to recruit people by direct approach but you would need to show that this is not a way to bypass the law.Griff wrote:What do you mean by 'get away with player quotas? Are you suggesting that they're breaking laws by having quotas? They might be breaking laws if they advertised for positions and then didn't allow foreign players to apply, but I've never seen a job advert for a tight head prop, for example, at a professional club. Clubs/regions/franchises approach the players they want and offer them a job. They are therefore not discriminating against anyone as they're not turning down/excluding/sacking/etc. based on being 'foreign'. There's no rule in rugby that teams have to offer jobs to foreign players, so when they don't no rules are broken.HammerofThunor wrote:One of the reasons the WRU, etc get away with the player quotas is because it's linked to funding. The £6M the WRU give the Regions is not just for player release, but also for meeting the WQ player quota. The RFU effectively have one which is 65% of the playing squad on average over the year. If a club doesn't meet this they don't get a payout. I believe they currently all do and the generally numbers of the foriegn players has gone down a little (I think it's about 70% English instead of 65% now, or 193 players instead of 179). Also you can have a limit as long as no-one challenges it in court. In French or England a club could challenge the legality of limits if they were forced on them.
Unfortunately the FFR seem to be completely unwilling to give anything to get anything.
So what you're saying is that Sebastian Chabal, as an example, could take the Ospreys to court for not signing him? I've never heard the two linked, but surely that's the only way that a club could have legal action against them? I honestly can't see how a club can be brought to justice when they effectively head hunt - and they do not head hunt on the basis of race - so where is the break in the law.
Or to put it another way - clubs have had player quotas for a long time now (not all). If there was a breach of law, why have none of them been taken to court? Perhaps as they have never broken any rules.
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