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Great second half comebacks

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Post by blackcanelion Thu 14 Feb 2013, 1:49 am

An article in scrum.com got thinking about great second half comebacks. I looked up the stats and it's interesting it doesn't happen very often, especially when points difference gets bigger than a try. It's almot impossible when you are a converted try and penalty down (i.e. 10 points). Here's my thoughts on the great 2nd half come backs in the 5 point try era (since the start of July 1992). before I list them here are the stats for the 6 nations and rugby championship teams.

Team, no of victories when trailing by more than a converted try at half time.
Argentina 1
Australia 3
England 1
France 5
Ireland 2
Italy 2
New Zealand 7
Scotland 1
South Africa 4
Wales 4
In real terms. NZ are that is most competitive in terms of the percentages. They have a ratio of 2 wins every 5 games, vs 1 in for France, South Africa and Australia, about 1 in 20 for England and Wales, and 1 in 50 for the others.

In terms of the best 2nd half recoveries. Here's my top 5.

1. France vs NZ world cup 2007. One of the biggest second half comebacks against NZ, done at the peak of their powers, done in the knock out stages of the world cup. All this done whilst on the defensive for the longest record time in history whilst making the most tackles in recorded test match history and hardly seeing the ball. It aided by a perfect disciplinary record. A fairy story with a happy ending for the blues.

2. France vs Wales 1996. This is the only time a team has come back from being more than two tries down at half time to win a game. The French did by scoring 30 points in the second half.

3. NZ vs South Africa 1996. the All Blacks recovered from a 9 point deficit to win in Durban as part of their campaign that swept the trinations and won a tests series in South Africa.

4. South Africa vs NZ 1998. Both the boks and the wallabies rallied at home to recover from big half time deficits and beat the all blacks, keeping them winless in the 1998 tri nations.

5. Wales vs England 2008. Twickerham isn't the easiest place to win. Wales did it, winning their for the first time in 20 years, winning the 6 nations and achieving the grandslam.



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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Thu 14 Feb 2013, 6:06 am

There was only 3 points in it at half time in 2007. The comeback in 1999 was much more impressive by France and they had a far bigger comeback to overcome.

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Post by Taylorman Thu 14 Feb 2013, 7:43 am

Perfect discipanary record? You having us on bc? 2007?

Reason they had such a continuous defensive record was because they kept getting up offside and knocking the ABs over from offside positions Barnes refused to penalise the tournaments most penalised side for 60 minutes.

Agree Kia, 99 was huge...the biggest comeback in World cup history- at least in knockouts- 24-10 down at half time.

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Post by mckay1402 Thu 14 Feb 2013, 7:51 am

I seem to remember a very detailed article about this a couple of weeks ago.

Anyway I would say Wales v France 2005 was one of the most impressive comebacks I've seen. Martyn Williams was awesome that day.
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Post by Mr Bounce Thu 14 Feb 2013, 8:14 am

Worthy of a mention (although 13-13 at half time) was France v Australia in 2010. Australia went 3 further points behind before turning on the magic and scoring 46 unanswered points in the second half with the scoreline finishing at 16-59.

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Post by dallym Thu 14 Feb 2013, 8:22 am

I'm glad nobody is mentioning that semifinal from '99.

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Post by Hound_of_Harrow Thu 14 Feb 2013, 8:28 am

Ok it wasn't an international but Wasps comeback against Quins in the final league game of the 1999-2000 season at Loftus Road was the biggest I've witnessed.

Trailing 3-32 at ht, Wasps scored 32 unanswered points in the second half to win 35-32.

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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Thu 14 Feb 2013, 11:29 am

Thanks for calling me a nobody dallym. Sad

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Post by Bathman_in_London Thu 14 Feb 2013, 11:40 am

Poor kia, unless it was meant in a John Eales way of course!

99 semi final is the best comeback I've seen for sure, even more surprising in that the crowd ended up cheering the french!

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Post by wales606 Thu 14 Feb 2013, 11:42 am

If we are including club games,

Blues vs Leicester in the HC semi final was one of the best comebacks I have seem, taking the game to a penalty shootout.
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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Thu 14 Feb 2013, 11:46 am

The first Soweto test at Soccer City (at least in recent times) when Nonu passed the ball to Dagg with one shoe was much better than the second test comeback and I think ranks as one of our best comebacks. The win to beat Australia at Olympic stadium with a world record attendance was a good achievement after going three tries up in 15 minutes only to surrender the lead in the second half.

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Post by Guest Thu 14 Feb 2013, 12:50 pm

My favourite has to be Wales vs Scotland 2010 mostly because of the drama in the last 5 minutes

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Post by Taylorman Thu 14 Feb 2013, 5:02 pm

For me this little gem will always be the comeback of all comebacks...ABs down 31-9 with 19 minutes to go

http://springbokrugby.webs.com/15thtourmatch.htm

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Post by GunsGerms Thu 14 Feb 2013, 5:16 pm

Leinster v Northampton

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Post by blackcanelion Fri 15 Feb 2013, 12:14 am

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:There was only 3 points in it at half time in 2007. The comeback in 1999 was much more impressive by France and they had a far bigger comeback to overcome.

It's from the ESPN's database. I'm pretty sure it was 13-3 at half time to the All Blacks. It was 13-0 at the point that Barnes issued his last penalty against the French earlier in the half. The managed to get a penalty near the end of the half and then scored all the points in the second half.

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Post by Taylorman Fri 15 Feb 2013, 12:35 am

I thought it was 13-6 at half time...

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Post by blackcanelion Fri 15 Feb 2013, 12:46 am

Taylorman wrote:Perfect discipanary record? You having us on bc? 2007?

Reason they had such a continuous defensive record was because they kept getting up offside and knocking the ABs over from offside positions Barnes refused to penalise the tournaments most penalised side for 60 minutes.

Agree Kia, 99 was huge...the biggest comeback in World cup history- at least in knockouts- 24-10 down at half time.

I think all world records should be celebrated in sports. In this case there are multiple ones. I'd put it up there with Armstrongs Tour D'France victories and Carl Lewis's athletics records.

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Post by blackcanelion Fri 15 Feb 2013, 12:49 am

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:There was only 3 points in it at half time in 2007. The comeback in 1999 was much more impressive by France and they had a far bigger comeback to overcome.

It was a massive comeback and one of the great games. We got owned in the second half. However, I was only looking at half time scores greater than 7 points so it didn't come up. We were 6 or seven points up going into half time and went further ahead afterwards before they stormed back. one of the great comebacks.

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Post by Hound_of_Harrow Fri 15 Feb 2013, 1:28 am

blackcanelion wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Perfect discipanary record? You having us on bc? 2007?

Reason they had such a continuous defensive record was because they kept getting up offside and knocking the ABs over from offside positions Barnes refused to penalise the tournaments most penalised side for 60 minutes.

Agree Kia, 99 was huge...the biggest comeback in World cup history- at least in knockouts- 24-10 down at half time.

I think all world records should be celebrated in sports. In this case there are multiple ones. I'd put it up there with Armstrongs Tour D'France victories and Carl Lewis's athletics records.

So France were aided by PEDs? Is that what you are alleging?

Just asking.

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Post by Taylorman Fri 15 Feb 2013, 1:29 am

Whew...

How is 7 points at half time a massive comeback in the context of 20 years of test rugby?
Owned in the second half...? Does that include the blatant forward pass try and Barnes paralysis, half the French backs amongst our own or just whatever else there is left.

Sorry bc, cant agree that match is representative of a 'great comeback' in our sport, and how come you dont have 99 up there...

24-10 down at half time the French scored 26 unanswered points to lead 36-24 - thats screaming out 'comeback' from the tree tops so by having 2007 and not 1999 the list loses all credibility in my book.

Astounding how youve come up with that... Though I do agree with one thing about 2007- it does belong up there with Lance Armstrong, but perhaps Ben Johnson rather then Carl Lewis...

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Post by GLove39 Fri 15 Feb 2013, 2:25 am

IronMike wrote:My favourite has to be Wales vs Scotland 2010 mostly because of the drama in the last 5 minutes

That one still hurts, Sad

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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Fri 15 Feb 2013, 6:54 am

blackcanelion wrote:
kiakahaaotearoa wrote:There was only 3 points in it at half time in 2007. The comeback in 1999 was much more impressive by France and they had a far bigger comeback to overcome.

It was a massive comeback and one of the great games. We got owned in the second half. However, I was only looking at half time scores greater than 7 points so it didn't come up. We were 6 or seven points up going into half time and went further ahead afterwards before they stormed back. one of the great comebacks.

By that criteria we were 3 points up in 2007. Can't remember the half time score in 1999 but we had 24 points I think and they had more than 7 I'm pretty sure. Maybe it was 24 19 but that's still more of a margin than 2007 and the comeback was much more impressive in terms of attack. 2007 was a defensive effort. Both very impressive for different reasons but 99 stands out far more for me because Dominici and co were so compelling. The hurt was equal though!

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Post by dgttaylor Fri 15 Feb 2013, 7:33 am

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:The first Soweto test at Soccer City (at least in recent times) when Nonu passed the ball to Dagg with one shoe was much better than the second test comeback and I think ranks as one of our best comebacks. The win to beat Australia at Olympic stadium with a world record attendance was a good achievement after going three tries up in 15 minutes only to surrender the lead in the second half.

One of my favourite games of all time and I am English! Lomu in the corner to win it, amazing scenes.

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Post by yappysnap Fri 15 Feb 2013, 8:21 am

GLove39 wrote:
IronMike wrote:My favourite has to be Wales vs Scotland 2010 mostly because of the drama in the last 5 minutes

That one still hurts, Sad

What was even worse was that for 79 minutes the Scots played some of their best rugby that I can remember, and then Williams ruins everything.

If we're doing club games then Quins come back against Wasps was quite good.

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Post by disneychilly Fri 15 Feb 2013, 9:52 am

Kia 2007 hurts way worse for me than 99. I reckon Aussie would have thumped us in the final if France hadn't have turned it on in 99. 2007-I'll never be as filthy about a game ever!

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 15 Feb 2013, 10:18 am

I loved Wales's comeback from 30 - 3 down against Ireland in this year's Six Nations.

Oh hang on... Sad

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Post by Guest Fri 15 Feb 2013, 10:59 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I loved Wales's comeback from 30 - 3 down against Ireland in this year's Six Nations.

Oh hang on... Sad

I was almost on for £220 from that. I didn't believe we would come back, but they did a good job of teasing me.

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Post by captain carrantuohil Fri 15 Feb 2013, 11:04 am

France's comeback from plenty behind to beat England at Twickers in 1997 was very impressive. Lamaison on one of his going days killed England and England just weren't crafty enough yet to stop him doing as he liked in the second half. The game decided that year's GS - another that English followers will have thought was one chucked away.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 15 Feb 2013, 11:05 am

If we'd boxed clever and taken kicks at goal rather than scrums, we could have done it, Rev.

Still, it'll be better to win the championship on points - grand slams are getting boring now. Smile

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 15 Feb 2013, 11:07 am

Captain, that was a great match. I remember Paul Grayson kicking a penalty to put England a fair way ahead and Nigel Starmer-Smith on commentary saying 'that'll do.' No one told Laurent Leflamand and the others.

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Post by captain carrantuohil Fri 15 Feb 2013, 11:11 am

Leflamand, that's right, LP. Looked the business at the time, but just faded off the map. A strange year, that one, I seem to remember - the great England side of the early-mid 90s was giving way to the younger bucks that would do so well in the early Noughties. Meanwhile France were about to do back to back Slams for the only time with a team that didn't actually stay together that long. The Celtic nations were all beating each other and appeared to be in disarray - you would never have thought that Scotland would win a championship two years later, for example.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 15 Feb 2013, 11:19 am

They had Jean-Luc Sadourny at full back, he didn't last much longer either but he was a fine player.

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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Fri 15 Feb 2013, 12:03 pm

Disney all of them hurt, just for different reasons.

91 because we weren't good enough. Maybe that's the worst!

95 because we will never know how they would've played if all fully fit.

99 because we panicked and French proved too good for us in the end after a lead you should never give up.

03 because we got selections wrong and we would've been stronger probably with the right players. Certainly not a fullback at centre. mad

07 because that squad was awesome but we didn't have a plan b in the tight games. We just thought we could crush everybody.

Saw the game was 13 - 3 at half time. Stand corrected bc. Could've sworn it was much closer. A good comeback indeed but nowhere near in the same class of 99. Kind of like saying 2011 final was a crushing victory for NZ. Whistle

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Post by disneychilly Fri 15 Feb 2013, 1:41 pm

Yeah for some reason I'm dirtier on 07 than 95. They're the big two though. We weren't good enough in the others. 03 I think we could have beaten England but that's just speculation and they were more consistent than us then so I don't have gripes especially after Aussie royally humping us. We were playing a reactive game and when we were on song especially after losing to England we looked great-not even that great English side would have put 50 on Aussie and SA away in a week-but when the opposition took the initiative we came up short-especially with Spencer at 10. Looked clueless-and it's frustrating that Umaga didn't play. Our own fault there. Though 99 could have been better if we'd played the most lethal back four of all time actually in their correct positions.

07-well when DC dinked that cross kick I thought our minds weren't on the job and that was the first seed of doubt for me.

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Post by 100%beefy Fri 15 Feb 2013, 1:43 pm

Aside from France's comeback v NZ for me Wales recovery in Paris in 05 was epic

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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Fri 15 Feb 2013, 1:47 pm

Fair enough mate. They're the filthy ones for me in a way because we had such good teams. 99 and 03 we weren't as good but sometimes you don't need to be the best team to win. Maybe that makes losing easier to bear but frankly we back ourselves no matter the game or the opposition, even if they're better than us. We still think we're capable of winning. Probably why quite a few Kiwis are such poor losers and don't recognise the importance of being gracious in defeat as well as victory.

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Post by gboycottnut Fri 15 Feb 2013, 1:56 pm

The best second half comeback has to be the one New Zealand made V England at Twickenham in 1997 where after the first half they were 17-3 down to a rampant and inspired England team, but somehow they the All Blacks still managed to produce an amazing comeback in the second half to eventually draw this match 17 all.

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Post by disneychilly Fri 15 Feb 2013, 3:14 pm

Wasn't it 26 all in 97? Was filthy on that too it screwed our perfect season ha!

Yeah I agree. While we can (grudgingly lol) accept that we weren't, say the best side at a World Cup, we'd damn sure never say that we weren't good enough to win any particular one off game.

Think the poor loser thing is because we're always the battler (and used to losing) in most other sports as we're nowhere near as consistent. Then we have the All Blacks, who are the most consistently winning team in sport (we don't lose in what-86% of all the games we've played), which make us the big bad wolf in rugby. You'd think that following other sports would make the ABs losing more acceptable but it's just a foible of ours. As long as our rugby team is supreme she's all ok. But don't f**k with that lol.

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Post by GLove39 Fri 15 Feb 2013, 7:51 pm

Edinburgh V Racing Metro has to be up there with the greatest? 24 points down with about 20 on the clock. Amazing stuff

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Post by blackcanelion Sat 16 Feb 2013, 5:45 am

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Fair enough mate. They're the filthy ones for me in a way because we had such good teams. 99 and 03 we weren't as good but sometimes you don't need to be the best team to win. Maybe that makes losing easier to bear but frankly we back ourselves no matter the game or the opposition, even if they're better than us. We still think we're capable of winning. Probably why quite a few Kiwis are such poor losers and don't recognise the importance of being gracious in defeat as well as victory.

I'm not sure that's the case. We lose regularly enough. Like most teams, the fans have a variety of opinions on the losses. Buy in large most defeats are accepted by most fans. Generally, we concede the opposition was better on the day, sometimes we bemoan injuries, or blame selection or tactics. Sometimes we look to sickness. The big 2 for NZ fans are '95 and '07. '95 for most fans is not a case of blaming anyone, it's just bemoaning fate that resulted in the whole team being struck down by illness on the biggest stage. Fans have variety of views on 07. Personally I'm at one end. Other people are stoic, bemoan injuries to key players, and inability to drop kick,etc. That's not that different from most people (most of us have one game that sticks in our craw). I'm biased. You want your team to win, they have a good chance, they don't. Part of it's disappointment (I know a guy who was on the field with boks in the '11 quarterfinal and I can assure you it's not just regular fans that feel disappointed in these situations).

The other part is the researcher in me. This was an very unusual game. Probably no side has had do as much relative defending compared with opposition, or been penalised relatively as little. It was game were the winning team had arguably much great dependence on the referee for position, possession and scoring opportunities than possibly any other game in the modern era. It was also a game where one team played for the equivalent of some whole match, in actual running time, without conceding a penalty. Which has a huge impact on your ability to defend.

I may be obsessive over this game but I'm sure most others are. I'll keep flinging posts about this game until the therapy works and they let me out of the padded cell.

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Post by Taylorman Sat 16 Feb 2013, 10:21 pm

For me its a lot simpler. Take away the blatant forward pass- one that in its nature resulted in a try where a pass flat or backwards would have gone a yard behind the player. 7 points- a French loss.

Take away the fact that the French were able to continuously steal the balll from offside positions in front of a frozen barnes and it explains- the 'unusual game' aspect. Thats because things happened in this match that wouldnt happen in others. Simply as that. And because of that- it doesnt qualify as a 'comeback' in my book. A comeback suggests one side turned around a result through their own efforts. Here the match was turned it around 'despite their poor efforts'

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