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Should rucking be brought back?

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Should rucking be brought back? Empty Should rucking be brought back?

Post by Biltong Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:43 am

I found this article about Richie McCaw, read through it and give your opinion. At the bottom there are some interesting comments made on the article.


It may be a Neanderthal thought, but perhaps the answer is to bring back good old-fashioned rucking. The question, of course, is what to do about players who are persistently offside.

Back in the day, when Richie McCaw was only getting on the wrong side of his cot, players used to punish offside opponents with a vigorous dose of rucking. Gareth Edwards said you always came out of a game against the All Blacks completely black and blue, but it was fair and well deserved.

But since rucking was banned, players have turned to a far more brutal form of ‘vigilante justice’. In recent weeks both Dean Greyling and Scott Higginbotham have taken it upon themselves to object physically to McCaw’s methods. Unfortunately these two instances show just how out of touch the games authorities are in dealing with the whole issue.

Greyling’s forearm smash to the side of McCaw’s head constituted assault. He should have been sent off at the time, but neither ref nor touch judge were strict enough. You could excuse Alain Rolland his leniency. The last time he sent someone off for foul play it cost him the World Cup final.

But what on earth was the citing officer doing in the case of Greyling. Paul Tully said the South African prop’s action had the potential to cause serious injury. He then handed down a one match suspension. Murder would presumably warrant a month off games.

A couple of weeks later Scott Higginbotham takes it upon himself to sort out McCaw, who had just entered a ruck from somewhere near South Australia. Higginbotham let his knee flick McCaw on the way past. There followed a scuffle. Higginbotham, now on the ground, aimed a head butt so soft that it could only be called a Sydney kiss. There was no intent to harm.

Yet Higginbotham, who had a previously exemplary disciplinary record, received a two match ban. Jannie Lubbe, the citing officer who previously exonerated Quade Cooper for a scuffle with McCaw,recognised that there was no intent to harm. Yet Higginbotham still received double the ban of Greyling.

The world is about face. It seems the worse the offence on McCaw, the more lenient the sanction. In the final of the World Cup McCaw was eye gouged, but the IRB swept the incident under the carpet. They didn’t want the scandal. No action was taken about an incident that shamed rugby. Better to pretend it didn’t happen.

10 months later Meyer assaulted McCaw. His coach apologised to the All Blacks captain and called his actions unacceptable. Captain Jean de Villiers was appalled and said his team would never condone playing dirty. Yet Greyling received a one match ban. It’s a joke and not a very funny one.

So when Higginbotham roughed McCaw, coach Steve Hansen called it another cheap shot and pointed out that his captain was subjected to them every week. McCaw said: “It does get frustrating at times and annoying, but there’s not much I can do about it.”

There’s actually quite a lot Richie could do about it, like staying onside, but world class openside flankers don’t think like that. They push the law past breaking point. That’s why rucking was a good solution. Any stud near the head was an automatic sending off offence, but the rest was fair game.

At the moment the game is anything but fair. The psychos are getting away with murder and the likes of Higginbotham are receiving rough justice.

If the IRB won’t go back to rucking, at least appoint a few more ex internationals – as they do in cricket – to the disciplinary panel. At least that way we might get some understanding of the difference between gratuitous violence and onfield vigilantism.

A few comments made

“It has nothing to do with rucking but everything to do with players being sick and tired of watching one Richie McCaw hang around on the wrong side of the ruck over and over taking his sweet time to get out of the way and only a few referees punish him.

I for one as a fan am sick and tired of seeing him treated as if he were untouchable and maybe the time has come for some consistency, it is about time that his almighty Richie is binned, because in my opinion, he is not binned enough and as a result he will keep on playing like that and if the refs will not stop him, frustrated players will.

If Richie is seriously injured one day, will the IRB and the Referees claim responsibility, because if they applied the laws equally to every player, Richie will not be so eager to slow down play”

“I have watched RM in the past really take his time to roll away and get out of the players way, I have also seen him stand up and menouvre himself in such a way as to slow down play. Referees allow him to do these things, rucking would not help, this is simply down to enforcing the law..”

The problem isn’t McCaw. It’s the fact that he understands the application of the Laws better than most referees and definately better than arm-chair critics including most “rugby journos”. He knows there is a fine line and an even finer split second between a tackle and a ruck forming, which, if you look at it objectively as stated in Law 16 of the game reads:

Law 16. Ruck

A ruck is a phase of play where ONE or more players from EACH TEAM, who are ON THEIR FEET, in PHYSICAL CONTACT, close around the ball on the ground.

Therefore, this Law asks certain questions at every post-tackle situation which McCaw has the fastest answers too.

Q: Is there a player from EACH team present? A: No – this means no ruck has formed and ANY player can contest the ball from direction as their is no offside line (yet)

Q: Are the players present from each team ON THEIR FEET contesting the ball? A: No – this means no ruck has formed (yet) and so a player on their feet has all the rights to contest the ball from ANY direction as their is no offside line (yet).

McCaw knows that until all the conditions are met in Law 16, he can dispute each point with the ref and suggest that he was contesting from the position he was in before ALL of those conditions were met to define a legal ruck.

Some refs will argue their point back and bat away his points but McCaw’s understanding of the application of the Laws means he comes across technically superior. This creates doubt in the ref’s own mind as to their speed of thought and speed of positioning to blow the whistle correctly.

McCaw is without doubt a technical master and his incredible engine enables him to be one step ahead (most but not all of the time) not only of the refs but the booing opposition supoorters who only see and shout what they want to see — a McCaw red card!


The Ref’s do not debate on a field and the law also says that a player needs to roll away from the ruck, he does take his time and he does obstruct, whether he knows the law or not, the ruck is not the issue, the issue is interpretation, and IMO…you have 2 things in life.

Laws – they should be clear and concise Guidelines – Open for interpretation

So in rugby if a “Law” can be interpreted differently, then it is not a “Law” but more a “guideline”, that means the IRB need to work on it and make sure there is clarity, we have the same problem with the tip tackle, there is no clear indication as to what is what..

The Law says that the TACKLER needs to roll away.

The next player on the scene does not have to adhere to this so long as ALL the conditions in Law 16 are not met. That player (who is often McCaw) has free reign to contest from any direction as I stated because technically NO ruck has yet formed despite some refs insisting it has

That is incorrect. The second player must still come “through the gate”, he cannot enter from any direction
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Post by HERSH Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:57 am

Yes.

But a rule would have to come in about what studs the players are wearing, I don't fancy having my back raked by those silly blade types of boots that backs wear, you know the ones I mean that make them slip on a damp muddy pitch all the time.
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Post by chewed_mintie Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:18 am

I would like to see rucking brought back. There need to be clear guidelines what constitutes safe rucking and sanctions for misuse of the ruck

Would speed the game up no end!

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Post by disneychilly Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:21 am

Bring back rucking for sure. It's ironic that some countries want to see rucking back because they believe McCaw will be negated better or punished to some extent. NZ INVENTED rucking, and a lot of Kiwis want to see it back. So it may well give the All Blacks an advantage. I like that idea of players getting self-policed, however there is a fine line between rucking and stomping on someone.

Also-McCaw will have just as much influence. Think a shoeing will deter him from putting his body on the line? He played a RWC final with a broken foot. The man is one hard motherf*cker.

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Post by LondonTiger Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:22 am

The IRB lawmakers have prime responsibility for the mess at the breakdown. They keep amending the laws supposedly to improve entertainment - so coaches find ways to exploit these. Refs have to keep coping with changes.

We will never see the return of old fashioned "rucking" (ie trampling someone because they are in the way) as the real world law would cause issues.

What we now have are too many forwards on the pitch who either clog up the backline or lie all over the ball to slow it down. If we reverted to the old laws of team moving forward gets possession - suddenly there is something for these forwards to do. This has to be better than the path that ARU want us to go - remove two players, tap restarts etc.

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Post by offload Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:25 am

disneychilly wrote: there is a fine line between rucking and stomping on someone

Yes - with enough management of the fine line.

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Post by ebop Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:27 am

disneychilly wrote:Also-McCaw will have just as much influence. Think a shoeing will deter him from putting his body on the line? He played a RWC final with a broken foot. The man is one hard motherf*cker.
Amen brother!

Jerseys would have to revert to that heavy cotton fabric. The Lycra they wear these days would fall apart at the first ruck.
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Post by Biltong Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:27 am

I too think rucking should be brought back. The reality is most 7's play very close to the offside line and the referee and players will always interpret the situation differently.

Rucking will stop one thing, it will stop players on the wrong side of the ruck, rucking will also inprove the situation at the ruck, because more players will stay on their feet (you can't ruck if you are on the ground).

But even if rucking is brought back, the laws at the breakdown needs to be simplified.
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Post by chewed_mintie Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:30 am

disneychilly wrote:Also-McCaw will have just as much influence. Think a shoeing will deter him from putting his body on the line? He played a RWC final with a broken foot. The man is one hard motherf*cker.

Correction - he played a WC tournament with a broken foot!

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Post by emack2 Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:30 am

The Ruck in it`s classic form will never return it is not PC,the laws state player Tackled must release and roll away.BUT also the tackler must RELEASE HIM if he is tackled.He must be bought to GROUND then he must make the ball available IMMEDIATLY or release etc.That implies either passing to support in tackle,placing the ball on the ground then rolling away.As long as he is on his feet he can contest.Players contesting for the ball before a Ruck for want of a better word must observe the offside rules.I.E must not enter through the gate.The 5 second rule at the Ruck when enforced will make things harder for defences.Having to choose whether to contest or stand off in line and stop the pick and go.Effectively if policed a tap penalty situation certainly it would concentrate the mind .IF after taking a cheap shot they knew for example at the next RUCK[traditional style].The whole All Black pack would be marching over your body.

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Post by red_stag Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:36 am

Why does it need to be brought back?

It is possible to legally ruck a player who is lying on the wrong side.

The law says "(f) A player rucking for the ball must not intentionally ruck players on the ground. A player rucking for the ball must try to step over players on the ground and must not intentionally step on them. A player rucking must do so near the ball."

By my reading of that if your lying on the ground on the wrong side killing the ball and I am trying to ruck for the ball its toughtitties if my boots end up on you.

What I can't do is look down and intentionally stamp on you to remove you.

Seems fair enough to me. Get out there and get rucking.

Rucking still exists. You will never ever ever ever get the IRB to try and convince the health and safety brigade, the worried mums and the insurance companies that they can introduce a law removed nearly 20 year ago allowing players to intentionally use studs on each other.

What we have allows for rucking if you are that way inclined.
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Post by LondonTiger Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:39 am

I have almost seen a proper ruck this season. The attacking team's forwards drove over the ball and the opposition flanker who had been lying all over the ball said thanks stood up and ran off with the ball.

Makes me laugh when the ref shouts "ruck ball" when everyone is lying down.

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Post by Full Credit Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:52 am

Absolutely it should be brought back. Aside from the fact that getting and receiving a good shoeing is character building, for me rucking was always a big part of what made rugby special.

I don't think it will deter McCaw (and other 7s) much but at least this way the opposition won't feel aggrieved and won't be able to complain about slow or disrupted ball. If anyone can slow down ball with 8 pairs of boots on his back then he deserves it.

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Post by GunsGerms Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:55 am

Rucking should be brought back. Jamie Cudmore tweeted recently requesting that the IRB bring back rucking and basically said that everyone should man up.

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Post by ebop Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:57 am

So stag, are you saying that if a player is lying over the ball, you can ruck them? Can you ruck them vigorously or will the ref take exception?
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Post by rodders Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:02 am

Biltong wrote:I too think rucking should be brought back. The reality is most 7's play very close to the offside line and the referee and players will always interpret the situation differently.

Rucking will stop one thing, it will stop players on the wrong side of the ruck, rucking will also inprove the situation at the ruck, because more players will stay on their feet (you can't ruck if you are on the ground).

But even if rucking is brought back, the laws at the breakdown needs to be simplified.

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Post by Knackeredknees Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:37 am

Rucking was always safe, your hips and shoulders ad to be in front of the person on the floor and you could only move your legs in a backward motion, any thing else was stamping and whistled! Clear and simple guidelines

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Post by red_stag Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:43 am

ebop wrote:So stag, are you saying that if a player is lying over the ball, you can ruck them?

Yes, a player is lying on the deck you are rucking for the ball and the #7 gets a couple of studs in the process then yup no questions asked in my book.

ebop wrote:Can you ruck them vigorously or will the ref take exception?

I would suggest that if you ever need to vigorously ruck a player then any competant referee will have already penalised the offender. A referee would have to take exception to vigorous rucking as that is when you are intentionally rucking a player on the deck.

The whole point is that allows for you to do a bit of light rucking and inflict a bit of collateral damage to those on the wrong side. It doesn't allow for you to stud anyone you like.

I don't see why there is an issue. Rarely do players actaully do any rucking at all.

They are all just trying to pick it up with their hands, be they attackers or defenders.
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Post by ebop Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:32 pm

Sweet, thanks Stag thumbsup

Presumably refs will be more lenient on vigorous rucking than a vigilante cheap shot? I guess there's scales involved, but would a player get 10 in the bin for being a little over zealous whilst trying to free the ball? Or just a penalty against? Or perhaps even sympathy from the ref if the serial offender is always getting rucked to bits?
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Post by red_stag Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:45 pm

Ebop,

You know how inconsistent us referees are Very Happy

Honestly depends on the level. I am doing a colts match this weekend. I know both teams - they are vicious little barsteards.

There will be no rucking. I won't be playing advantage at rucks. Fast whistles which reduces risk of a guy getting a boot and it turning into a punch up. If a ruck is going on too long - quick whistle. Ball isn't coming out of there. Scrum to team going forward.

However if its a more open game. A bunch of gnarled 3rd XV players who want to tear each other to bits on field and booze off field you let the ruck play out longer, allow them to be a little more vigorous.

As a rule of thumb Id be happy with "collateral damage rucking". If its got to the stage where a player needs to be vigorously removed then I would like to think that player would already be penalised as he has succeeded in slowing down the ball.
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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:01 pm

Biltong is the censor kicking in with the title of this thread? Just because you're married mate doesn't mean the end of a good old fashioned ruck. Whistle

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Post by Biltong Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:03 pm

Laugh
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Post by GunsGerms Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:52 pm

Refs should allow rucking provided there is no contact with the head, face or sack.

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Post by Full Credit Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:56 pm

So no sack rucking then?

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Post by Biltong Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:59 pm

Full Credit wrote:So no sack rucking then?
Can't "sack" the maul either. Whistle
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Post by anotherworldofpain Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:47 pm

red_stag wrote:
I would suggest that if you ever need to vigorously ruck a player then any competant referee will have already penalised the offender.

I agree. We need EITHER, a return of pemitted heavy rucking, or competent referees.

I'd be happy with either.

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Post by GunsGerms Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:03 pm

Full Credit wrote:So no sack rucking then?

You can do it in your spare time if you want.

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Post by Biltong Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:05 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
Full Credit wrote:So no sack rucking then?

You can do it in your spare time if you want.

How does one ruck one's own sack?

Reminds me of these two guys in SA sitting on a park bench, they are watching a dog licking himself.

So the first guy asks the other "would you do that?"








The guy says "Are you nuts? the dog will bite me."
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Post by GunsGerms Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:13 pm

Brilliant.

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Post by GunsGerms Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:01 pm

Did that really happen?

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Post by Biltong Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:03 pm

Laugh What do you think?
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Post by GunsGerms Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:07 pm

Eh no but funny though.

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Post by Biltong Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:26 pm

It's actually a South Afican local joke about Mike Schutte and Jimmy Abbot two heavyweight Boxers from the 80's, they tried to fight in the same class as Gerrie Coetzee and Kallie Knoetze, but weren't very succesfull, they were really just two big fat boxers
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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:28 pm

Like SBW's opponents.

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Post by PJHolybloke Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:00 pm

Rucking should definitely be brought back, rip the shirts from their backs and see how keen they are then to slow the ball down.

Hanging should also be brought back for any forward found guilty of using male grooming products.
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