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Racism - Do something about it FIFA/UEFA

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 17 Oct 2012, 7:53 am

I'm sure you have all heard about the disgraceful scenes at the end of the U21 game in Serbia last night

If not here is a link to it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05IukAku8qA&feature=my_liked_videos&list=LLhNNnHpyx8eiOK6-2qFJqZg

It's about time UEFA/FIFA did something that actually hurt these countries, and ban them for this racist behaviour. It's not the first time either, England coach Noel Blake (black) took his U19? team to Serbia for a qualifier and got racially abused. You have the Lazio fans making monkey noises at Jermain Defoe also.

If this ends up in a fine, I think I might actually lose all faith in FIFA/UEFA.
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Post by Josiah Maiestas Wed 17 Oct 2012, 9:18 am

Danny Rose provoked it with his aggressive kicking the ball to the crowd. Racism will always exist if you always react angrily to it. Why are you so bothered Olly? Do you ask for the black South Africans to stop killing white South Africans??

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Post by GSC Wed 17 Oct 2012, 9:26 am

I kinda agree with Josiah's Rose stance, I get he's angry but inciting them was sheer stupidity.
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Post by Marky Wed 17 Oct 2012, 10:06 am

Some are saying they don't blame Rose, but his reaction was never going to achieve anything.

Being a white male, I wouldn't suggest i'd be able to react in this way if I were in Danny Rose's position, but what he SHOULD have done was leave the pitch and leave it to the authorities to deal with.

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Post by Marky Wed 17 Oct 2012, 11:04 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19975032

England Under-21 defender Danny Rose called for Serbia to be banned after claiming he was racially abused by fans in Krusevac.

Fans ran on to the pitch and scuffles broke out as England celebrated a 1-0 win and Euro 2013 qualification.

Rose, 22, said he was subjected to monkey chants throughout the game, starting in the warm-up.

Connor Wickham's 94th-minute goal secured a 2-0 aggregate victory in the second leg of the qualifying play-off.

Rose, who was sent off after the final whistle for kicking the ball into the crowd, said the racist chanting in the first half of the game "was nowhere near as bad as the second".

"After 60 minutes my mind wasn't really on the game. I was just so angry and it was so hard to concentrate," he said.

"Then we scored and after 90 minutes' worth of abuse, I expressed my emotions as soon as we scored.

"Next thing I know, all the Serbia players were surrounding me, pushing me. I remember getting slapped twice. I got ushered away and that's when I kicked the ball - and then the referee sent me off.

"I don't understand - the game had finished. And then there was more monkey chanting. They should be banned."

The Football Association reported "a number" of racist incidents to Uefa.

England defender Nedum Onuoha was racially abused during the 2007 Under-21 European Championship game against Serbia in the Netherlands, for which Serbia were fined £16,000 by Uefa.

He told Sky Sports: "I had two stones hit me in the head when I went for a throw-in."

Professional Footballers' Association chairman Clarke Carlisle told BBC 5 Radio live that Serbia should received a "significant" international ban, adding that it was "farcical" that Rose was sent off for reacting to being racially abused.

"Serbia should be banned because it's a repeat offence," he said.

"Banning them for a start, from any tournament, would be progress but I think if it's significant - if it's a couple of tournaments - then that would cause that nation to address the issue that has deprived them of international competition."

PFA chief executive Gordon Taylor said: "The PFA condemns the appalling racist abuse endured by our Under-21 team in Serbia which evoked memories of scenes we all hoped had been consigned to the past.

"Fifa and Uefa need to get tough and deduct points or disqualify teams from competitions."

Former England midfielder Paul Ince, whose son Tom played in the game, said: "It's disgraceful to see these scenes.

"If it was me, they [Serbia] would be kicked out for the next five tournaments - European, World Cups - but they will get a little ban and that will be it."

Reading striker Jason Roberts told BBC Radio 5 live: "Uefa have shown they have no stomach for this battle. They haven't taken this on in the past; I doubt they will now.

"It's time for players to take action and that's why I've said they should walk off the pitch because, guaranteed, if that happens things will change."

Roisin Wood, director for anti-racism campaign Kick It Out, said: "Banning has got to be an option.

"This is Uefa's chance to show the world and take a strong stance against discrimination. We hope that Uefa will take a strong stand and instigate a full investigation."

Sports minister Hugh Robertson has written to Uefa president Michel Platini urging the governing body to take tough sanctions following last night's game.

A Uefa spokesperson told BBC Sport that it expected to receive the referee and delegate's reports on Wednesday or Thursday, but would not comment about the incidents at the game until they had studied the reports.

A spokesperson for the Serbian Football Association told BBC Sport there will be a meeting between its board members on Wednesday followed by statement later in the day.

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Post by hampo17 Wed 17 Oct 2012, 1:26 pm

Not sure how anyone can blame Rose, he reacted as any young man would who'd had constant abuse for 90 minutes. Got angry and wrongly got sent off.

The referee last night was awful, Buckland had rocks thrown at him and when he picked one up to show the ref he was told to stop moaning and get on with it. I mean actually what the hell was the ref playing at? .

I'm also not sure what people here mean when they say Rose provoked it? How? He had been abused for 90 minutes, the Serbian players got started getting violent when England scored so it's not like he started the brawl either, this is not the first time the Serbians have done something like this and it's about time UEFA put their foot down and suspended them from international competition for at least five years.

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Post by Josiah Maiestas Wed 17 Oct 2012, 1:39 pm

Hampo I think the best thing is to have the police more involved in their next match and have them possibly play with no fans in the stadium. Never knew about the throwing rocks Shocked Reacting to words is embarrassing Hampo, that's what everyone said when Zidane headbutted Materrazi in the World Cup final, you need good nerves to play football, and as we saw Rose didn't have it.
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Post by GSC Wed 17 Oct 2012, 1:45 pm

I can fully understand Rose's actions but he shouldve had a bit of common sense. Get out of the stadium then make your case in the media.

As for Serbia, 2 year ban from fans attending any kind of European competition at their stadiums, and when they travel the host has no obligation to provide tickets to them.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 17 Oct 2012, 1:47 pm

He is a human being not a robot. If he is being abused because of the colour of his skin repeatedly of course he is going to react. It wasn't just a one time thing it seems, it seems to be a constant barrage of abuse because of the colour of his skin. I think he did well not to react until he did tbh
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Post by Josiah Maiestas Wed 17 Oct 2012, 1:48 pm

As for Serbia, 2 year ban from fans attending any kind of European competition at their stadiums, and when they travel the host has no obligation to provide tickets to them.
You know what FIFA are like.. every last penny has to be vacuumed from the pockets of the football fan. The police are scared to get involved, because they are owned by people like the FIFA bureaucrats.
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Post by GSC Wed 17 Oct 2012, 1:50 pm

Being human doesn't deprive him of common sense. I can fully understand his actions but it was merely puring gasoline on the bonfire.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 17 Oct 2012, 1:50 pm

Now the Serbian FA are denying any racism last night Shocked

My god get a grip, you could hear the chants on the TV!
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 17 Oct 2012, 1:52 pm

GSC wrote:Being human doesn't deprive him of common sense. I can fully understand his actions but it was merely puring gasoline on the bonfire.

We all do things we regret in the heat of the moment GSC, I can't even begin to think how angry he felt at being racially abused all game
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Post by Josiah Maiestas Wed 17 Oct 2012, 2:03 pm

We all do things we regret in the heat of the moment GSC
So did Zidane in the 2006 World Cup final it didn't stop his own fans from attacking his behaviour/reaction to the alleged provocation.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 17 Oct 2012, 2:04 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:
We all do things we regret in the heat of the moment GSC
So did Zidane in the 2006 World Cup final it didn't stop his own fans from attacking his behaviour/reaction to the alleged provocation.

This is a completely different situation Josiah
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Post by GSC Wed 17 Oct 2012, 2:09 pm

Slightly, but Zidane was also in a much higher pressure situation. We can all understand why Rose did it, but I suspect he regrets it a tad.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 17 Oct 2012, 2:10 pm

Yes I suspect he does, but Serbia need to be banned. If this ends up in a fine, UEFA/FIFA might as well dress up in pantomime costumes and make even more of clowns out of themselves.

How can the Serbian FA DENY it????????
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Post by GSC Wed 17 Oct 2012, 2:12 pm

Because their job is to act in the best interests of Serbia
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Post by Crimey Wed 17 Oct 2012, 2:13 pm

Olly wrote:Yes I suspect he does, but Serbia need to be banned. If this ends up in a fine, UEFA/FIFA might as well dress up in pantomime costumes and make even more of clowns out of themselves.

How can the Serbian FA DENY it????????

In these situations they tend to say that it wasn't racially motivated, it was like the banana incidents in Russia where they have tried to claim it's not racism but an in-joke. It's totally rubbish, but very hard to argue against.

It's difficult in a legal sense to actually define what is and what isn't racism.

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Post by hampo17 Wed 17 Oct 2012, 2:31 pm

The worrying thing is we are all focusing on the racial side of it and how the fans should be punished, but what about the Serbian players and staff? Players attacking, kicking and punching the England lads, Serbian staff headbutting England coaches. Those have to be investigated as well.

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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand Wed 17 Oct 2012, 3:35 pm

I understand, at least slightly, your perspective, but this must rate as one of the more thoughtless comments I've read on here. Rose was being racially abused before he kicked the ball. He was also being pelted by objects thrown from the crowd before kicking the ball.

You don't fight racism by ignoring it - that suggests that racist abuse is only about getting a reaction. I'm not quite sure how relevant South Africa is to your point, but I would suggest that the political situation there is rather more complex than your comment indicates.

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Danny Rose provoked it with his aggressive kicking the ball to the crowd. Racism will always exist if you always react angrily to it. Why are you so bothered Olly? Do you ask for the black South Africans to stop killing white South Africans??

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Post by azania Wed 17 Oct 2012, 3:51 pm

Anyone who can attribute a scintilla of blame at Danny Rose is a total moron and complete and utter jackass. I wont have to explain myself because any explaination as to why a black man could eventually react to the most vile racial abuse for 90 minutes would fall on deliberately deaf ears.

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Post by mystiroakey Wed 17 Oct 2012, 4:24 pm

I heard the serbian FA denied it- jeas!!

Knew you would be hear AZ- not complaining off course!!

Anyway they have to be banned- I just know they wont!!


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Post by mystiroakey Wed 17 Oct 2012, 4:29 pm

basically the main reason they should be banned isnt what happened its the serbian FA reaction- If they cant understand what racism is they need to be told what racism is- because otherwise this will never ever end!!, and so does the rest of the racist european countries!! end of story..

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Post by Josiah Maiestas Wed 17 Oct 2012, 5:40 pm

Rose was being racially abused before he kicked the ball. He was also being pelted by objects thrown from the crowd before kicking the ball.
Not sure how he would know if he;s being racially abused,,Serbians speak a different language.

I'm not quite sure how relevant South Africa is to your point, but I would suggest that the political situation there is rather more complex than your comment indicates.
Serbian fans booing and throwing objects could also be political, no?
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Post by mystiroakey Wed 17 Oct 2012, 5:45 pm

I think its fair to say it wasnt political- they lost the game and got stuoid. This isnt a hard situation to work out jos. The problem is the way these fans act and the way that there FA will do nothing to punish them

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Post by Crimey Wed 17 Oct 2012, 5:54 pm

[quote="Josiah Maiestas"]
Rose was being racially abused before he kicked the ball. He was also being pelted by objects thrown from the crowd before kicking the ball.
Not sure how he would know if he;s being racially abused,,Serbians speak a different language.

They were making monkey noises, it doesn't matter what language you speak, that's pretty universal.

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Post by Josiah Maiestas Wed 17 Oct 2012, 6:31 pm

mystiroakey wrote:I think its fair to say it wasnt political- they lost the game and got stuoid. This isnt a hard situation to work out jos. The problem is the way these fans act and the way that there FA will do nothing to punish them
There are 2 sides to every story mysti surely you can't judge what happened just by the highlights that Skysports shows you??
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Post by Josiah Maiestas Wed 17 Oct 2012, 6:35 pm

well Crimey to me it seems like there's a witch hunt going when any fans that boo's a black player they are linking it to racism without even getting efficient evidence to support the accusations. I will wait for the evidence before casting a stone thank you.
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Post by azania Wed 17 Oct 2012, 6:37 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:
Rose was being racially abused before he kicked the ball. He was also being pelted by objects thrown from the crowd before kicking the ball.
Not sure how he would know if he;s being racially abused,,Serbians speak a different language.

I'm not quite sure how relevant South Africa is to your point, but I would suggest that the political situation there is rather more complex than your comment indicates.
Serbian fans booing and throwing objects could also be political, no?

I think monkey chants when he gets the ball is a giveaway. What is the political objective at throwing objects and making obscene gestures and monkey chants at a black person who happens to play football? I'm eager to know this.

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Post by azania Wed 17 Oct 2012, 6:39 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:well Crimey to me it seems like there's a witch hunt going when any fans that boo's a black player they are linking it to racism without even getting efficient evidence to support the accusations. I will wait for the evidence before casting a stone thank you.

That's a nonsense. Boo a player because he wears an opponent's jersey is fair game whatever the ethnicity of the player. But that wasn't booing. Monkey chants is not booing. Furthermore if you isolate a black player for ridicule and leave the others alone, it begs the question as to why. It could be isolated. But if you boo all black players, to think it is not racism is lying to yourself.

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Post by azania Wed 17 Oct 2012, 6:40 pm

That ref should be barred from ever refereeing a match again.

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Post by Josiah Maiestas Wed 17 Oct 2012, 6:44 pm

azania wrote:
Josiah Maiestas wrote:well Crimey to me it seems like there's a witch hunt going when any fans that boo's a black player they are linking it to racism without even getting efficient evidence to support the accusations. I will wait for the evidence before casting a stone thank you.

That's a nonsense. Boo a player because he wears an opponent's jersey is fair game whatever the ethnicity of the player. But that wasn't booing. Monkey chants is not booing. Furthermore if you isolate a black player for ridicule and leave the others alone, it begs the question as to why. It could be isolated. But if you boo all black players, to think it is not racism is lying to yourself.
So then, next time a few supporters of African origin starts booing white players only on the pitch, these fans will have to get banned for life and the team banned from competitions?

Looking forward to this Very Happy
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Post by azania Wed 17 Oct 2012, 6:48 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:
azania wrote:
Josiah Maiestas wrote:well Crimey to me it seems like there's a witch hunt going when any fans that boo's a black player they are linking it to racism without even getting efficient evidence to support the accusations. I will wait for the evidence before casting a stone thank you.

That's a nonsense. Boo a player because he wears an opponent's jersey is fair game whatever the ethnicity of the player. But that wasn't booing. Monkey chants is not booing. Furthermore if you isolate a black player for ridicule and leave the others alone, it begs the question as to why. It could be isolated. But if you boo all black players, to think it is not racism is lying to yourself.
So then, next time a few supporters of African origin starts booing white players only on the pitch, these fans will have to get banned for life and the team banned from competitions?

Looking forward to this Very Happy

Where does that happen? And when?

But if your silly hypothetical example has a point, then ban them. But it seems as if it was a majority of serbian supporters being racist.

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Post by GSC Wed 17 Oct 2012, 6:49 pm

Booing white people is accepted in Az's community though josiah
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Post by azania Wed 17 Oct 2012, 6:52 pm

GSC wrote:Booing white people is accepted in Az's community though josiah

Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh

Read what I wrote to josh. Moreover its interesting that you so vehemently defend overt racism. And you defended John Terry. Suarez not a bad bloke either eh? Just culturally misunderstood I suppose.

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Post by PJHolybloke Wed 17 Oct 2012, 7:05 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:
Rose was being racially abused before he kicked the ball. He was also being pelted by objects thrown from the crowd before kicking the ball.
Not sure how he would know if he;s being racially abused,,Serbians speak a different language.

I'm not quite sure how relevant South Africa is to your point, but I would suggest that the political situation there is rather more complex than your comment indicates.
Serbian fans booing and throwing objects could also be political, no?

Spoken like a true Dago. thumbsup
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Post by mystiroakey Wed 17 Oct 2012, 7:19 pm

what a ridiculas converstaion this is turning out- What has monkey chanting and booing got to do with each other!!

But yes the reality is we do operate positive discrimination and they is a deep rooted reason as to why developed nations do this!

Dont get me wrong we have all- and i mean all of us said the occasional racist thing- that includes myself!! i dont hate sureaz or terry, they lashed outy and there backwards breeding took over- they are probally pretty decent people sometimes(terry clearly has been a wrongon on many levels mind)

But these backwards nations do need a kick up the jacksee if they want to more forward.. punish incorrect behaviour- the racism is with the there FA not understanding what is racism.. I dont really blame there sad little backwards fans.. There have nothing to live for- but i do blame the inherently backwards goiverning bodies..

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Post by azania Wed 17 Oct 2012, 7:25 pm

Well said mystri.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 17 Oct 2012, 8:10 pm

UEFA have charged both Serbia and England. Obviously, if you are attacked and abused on the pitch as England were you are:

a) Not entitled to defend yourself
b) Not entitled to walk off the pitch

Well done UEFA. Rolling Eyes

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Post by azania Wed 17 Oct 2012, 8:14 pm

I suppose a handshake will sort it all out.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 17 Oct 2012, 8:19 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:well Crimey to me it seems like there's a witch hunt going when any fans that boo's a black player they are linking it to racism without even getting efficient evidence to support the accusations. I will wait for the evidence before casting a stone thank you.

Here's the evidence of monkey chanting:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19976781

Scroll down for the vid.

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Post by Josiah Maiestas Wed 17 Oct 2012, 8:46 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Josiah Maiestas wrote:well Crimey to me it seems like there's a witch hunt going when any fans that boo's a black player they are linking it to racism without even getting efficient evidence to support the accusations. I will wait for the evidence before casting a stone thank you.

Here's the evidence of monkey chanting:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19976781

Scroll down for the vid.
still waiting for the Serbian version of the incidents, videos can be manipulated to support a cause.
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Post by azania Wed 17 Oct 2012, 9:13 pm

Good grief Josh. That is stretching. Are you a Serb nationalist or something? The match was shown live on ESPN. The commentators were appalled. Even serbs interviewed were embarrassed by those morons.

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Post by azania Wed 17 Oct 2012, 9:14 pm

Oh, the Serbs said there was no racism. That's resolved it all then.

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Post by PJHolybloke Wed 17 Oct 2012, 10:20 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Josiah Maiestas wrote:well Crimey to me it seems like there's a witch hunt going when any fans that boo's a black player they are linking it to racism without even getting efficient evidence to support the accusations. I will wait for the evidence before casting a stone thank you.

Here's the evidence of monkey chanting:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19976781

Scroll down for the vid.
still waiting for the Serbian version of the incidents, videos can be manipulated to support a cause.

Would these be the same Slavic Serbs that spent a few years in the 90's exterminating other Serbs because they were the "wrong type of Serb"?

Are those the same Serbs we're talking about?

Just asking like...

Because the type of Serbs I'm thinking of are the Serbs that spent years surrounding Serbian Muslim civilian populations in their own country, mortaring them, sniping them, ethnically cleansing them through concentration camps and mass murder on a genocidal level whilst denying, to the entire world, that it was going on. Those Serbs?

Those Serbs denied it in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, despite the mass graves that have since been discovered, despite the documentary evidence that has been provided to The Hague by the ream, despite the eye witnesses that are even now testifying against Serbian war criminals as to the depraved depth of their racist crimes. Those Serbs still stand up in front of a European Court of Law and deny EVERYTHING.

Yet you Josiah, are "waiting for the Serbian version of the incidents"?

I'll tell you why racism in football still exists in places like Serbia, it's because people like you are only too happy to pretend it isn't happening.

Congratulations. clap

Should have gone to Specsavers. Racism - Do something about it FIFA/UEFA Smiley-taunt005
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Post by azania Wed 17 Oct 2012, 10:42 pm

PJHolybloke wrote:
Josiah Maiestas wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Josiah Maiestas wrote:well Crimey to me it seems like there's a witch hunt going when any fans that boo's a black player they are linking it to racism without even getting efficient evidence to support the accusations. I will wait for the evidence before casting a stone thank you.

Here's the evidence of monkey chanting:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19976781

Scroll down for the vid.
still waiting for the Serbian version of the incidents, videos can be manipulated to support a cause.

Would these be the same Slavic Serbs that spent a few years in the 90's exterminating other Serbs because they were the "wrong type of Serb"?

Are those the same Serbs we're talking about?

Just asking like...

Because the type of Serbs I'm thinking of are the Serbs that spent years surrounding Serbian Muslim civilian populations in their own country, mortaring them, sniping them, ethnically cleansing them through concentration camps and mass murder on a genocidal level whilst denying, to the entire world, that it was going on. Those Serbs?

Those Serbs denied it in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, despite the mass graves that have since been discovered, despite the documentary evidence that has been provided to The Hague by the ream, despite the eye witnesses that are even now testifying against Serbian war criminals as to the depraved depth of their racist crimes. Those Serbs still stand up in front of a European Court of Law and deny EVERYTHING.

Yet you Josiah, are "waiting for the Serbian version of the incidents"?

I'll tell you why racism in football still exists in places like Serbia, it's because people like you are only too happy to pretend it isn't happening.

Congratulations. clap

Should have gone to Specsavers. Racism - Do something about it FIFA/UEFA Smiley-taunt005

clap clap

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Post by Gibson Wed 17 Oct 2012, 11:04 pm

azania wrote:
PJHolybloke wrote:
Josiah Maiestas wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Josiah Maiestas wrote:well Crimey to me it seems like there's a witch hunt going when any fans that boo's a black player they are linking it to racism without even getting efficient evidence to support the accusations. I will wait for the evidence before casting a stone thank you.

Here's the evidence of monkey chanting:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19976781

Scroll down for the vid.
still waiting for the Serbian version of the incidents, videos can be manipulated to support a cause.

Would these be the same Slavic Serbs that spent a few years in the 90's exterminating other Serbs because they were the "wrong type of Serb"?

Are those the same Serbs we're talking about?

Just asking like...

Because the type of Serbs I'm thinking of are the Serbs that spent years surrounding Serbian Muslim civilian populations in their own country, mortaring them, sniping them, ethnically cleansing them through concentration camps and mass murder on a genocidal level whilst denying, to the entire world, that it was going on. Those Serbs?

Those Serbs denied it in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, despite the mass graves that have since been discovered, despite the documentary evidence that has been provided to The Hague by the ream, despite the eye witnesses that are even now testifying against Serbian war criminals as to the depraved depth of their racist crimes. Those Serbs still stand up in front of a European Court of Law and deny EVERYTHING.

Yet you Josiah, are "waiting for the Serbian version of the incidents"?

I'll tell you why racism in football still exists in places like Serbia, it's because people like you are only too happy to pretend it isn't happening.

Congratulations. clap

Should have gone to Specsavers. Racism - Do something about it FIFA/UEFA Smiley-taunt005

clap clap

clap guinness

Its very rare I have nothing to add to a topic like this. After that post, I have nothing to add.
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Post by azania Wed 17 Oct 2012, 11:14 pm

The post by Josh deserved a slapdown. PJ have it a thorough beat down. Probably the best post I have read on this board.

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Post by Mike Selig Thu 18 Oct 2012, 12:31 am

The racist chanting is/was clear both live and on subsequent footage. I'm not particularly interested in hearing the Serbians try to explain why it happened or why it wasn't racist.

Suggesting that anything was provoked by Danny Rose kicking the ball at the end is moronic - the racist chanting had already long happened, and the fight/skirmish had already started. Sure, Rose was stupid, and I would tend to agree with the RC, although given what was happening around I think there are a few to issue retrospectively. I would have thought the ref would have had more urgent things to deal with (such as a fight involving 50 or so people) than dish out a RC to someone for kicking a ball.

On the skirmish at the end, I haven't seen any clear evidence that England were more sinned against than sinning. In fact, I haven't seen any clear evidence of anything - the only video I've seen shows a mass brawl.

None of this should detract from the fact that Serbia has long had a real issue with racism in football stadiums. Like Olly, I believe it is time to stop burrying heads in sand and handing out pathetic fines - hit them where it hurts:
- a real fine (7 figures minimum)
- points docking
- playing matches behind closed doors
- suspension from competitions

Any of those would do.


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