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Tim Bresnan

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Tim Bresnan Empty Tim Bresnan

Post by Guest Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:16 am

Can bresnan make his maiden test ton at the oval?

i think he can he has a couple of scores in the 90's and now averages 45 in test cricket and 23 with the ball!

genuine all rounder!

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by dummy_half Wed 17 Aug 2011, 11:28 am

He certainly has the stats of a true all rounder at the moment, but I do think they rather flatter him in that he's only really been involved in Tests against weak teams like Australia and India Wink

I think over time his averages will both tend to be around 30 - his bowling at Test level has surprised me in that he looks (physically) like a classic county trundler but he is definitely a bit quicker than you expect, and can get both bounce and seam movement sufficient to trouble good batsmen. As such, I think he is a legitimate Test standard bowler.

His batting is really at a similar level to Stuart Broad's, in that he can produce useful runs on occasion, but I don't fancy his chances against a really good attack (fortunately, other than England, the only really good attack in Test cricket at the moment is South Africa) - he's an OK technician but I just have the impression that serious pace or movement would trouble him, particularly early in an innings.

As for making his maiden Test ton, the chance of that would rather depend on how the top order play - if it hadn't been for Strauss and Pieterson getting themselves out to errors in the last match (KP in particular should be really annoyed because he looked in top form, then simply missed a straight one while trying his favourite shot), the England innings could have been something like 700-2, and the lower order wouldn't have had any chance to bat.

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by Guest Wed 17 Aug 2011, 12:30 pm

I can remember around a year ago when pundits and fans said that Bresnan wasn't ready for England.

How times have changed, he has been fantastic for England and has proved to be a vital source in the batting and bowling. His all rounding skills have improved, is capable of 5 wicket hauls on the international scene and against India his bowling was very dangerous.

Would love to see him make another big score with the bat, that would really show people that he deserves to be included in test matches for the forseeable.

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by Makrish Wed 17 Aug 2011, 1:00 pm

CF, I posted this in another thread, but having seen this post, I'm moving it here.

CF, Bresnan definitely isn't a genuine all-rounder. Sure, he averages in the 40's, that's mostly because he's benefitted from batting against a dejected bowling side.. Anytime he's scored over 20 runs in an innings has been when England has scored over 400, whereas Broad has helped England recover from positions of true peril (169 against Pakistan, recovering from 102-7 to 434-8, and of course, TB). While he may not get into this side as a specialist batsman, he definitely gets in as a specialist bowler, and his batting is often very useful.

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 17 Aug 2011, 1:09 pm

Agaion we get back to the old " what is a real all rounder" argument.

Name me a player in world who would get slected for a good side on his batting or bowling alone? There isnt one anymore at test level. Theres a lot you could argue for in limited overs, and then theres Steve Smith who is 7th in his sides bowling pecking order and averages 22 with the bat making Luke Wright look a good pick.

I prefer the defintion of someone who bowls regulalry and has a batting average higher than his bowling average. That way we are talking about players who actually exist.

Bresnans figures will even out over time, but for a genuine front 4 bowling option his batting is well above average, and hes been one of the world smost effective test players of the last year. Not bad at all for a guy who many thought would never be able to cut it.

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by Makrish Wed 17 Aug 2011, 1:16 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
I prefer the defintion of someone who bowls regulalry and has a batting average higher than his bowling average. That way we are talking about players who actually exist.

Bresnans figures will even out over time, but for a genuine front 4 bowling option his batting is well above average, and hes been one of the world smost effective test players of the last year. Not bad at all for a guy who many thought would never be able to cut it.

Agreed, on both points. Broad's figures are heading that way too, and Swann isn't too far off. In essence, we really have three "all-rounders" in the squad. Not, of course, including Trott. Or KP.

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by ShankyCricket Wed 17 Aug 2011, 1:37 pm

Swann's numbers both with bat and ball unlike Broady and Bresnan are heading in the wrong direction though. Crying or Very sad

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by ShankyCricket Wed 17 Aug 2011, 1:39 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Agaion we get back to the old " what is a real all rounder" argument.

Name me a player in world who would get slected for a good side on his batting or bowling alone? There isnt one anymore at test level. Theres a lot you could argue for in limited overs, and then theres Steve Smith who is 7th in his sides bowling pecking order and averages 22 with the bat making Luke Wright look a good pick.

I prefer the defintion of someone who bowls regulalry and has a batting average higher than his bowling average. That way we are talking about players who actually exist.

Bresnans figures will even out over time, but for a genuine front 4 bowling option his batting is well above average, and hes been one of the world smost effective test players of the last year. Not bad at all for a guy who many thought would never be able to cut it.

Shakib would get selected for Bangladesh as a batsman or a bowler alone.But then again you said good sides.

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by Guest Wed 17 Aug 2011, 2:29 pm

bresnan is defintiely an allrounder, even averging mid thirties is good enough to bat 7 in a test, and prior is more than good enough to bat 6

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by Makrish Wed 17 Aug 2011, 5:16 pm

cricketfan90 wrote:bresnan is defintiely an allrounder, even averging mid thirties is good enough to bat 7 in a test, and prior is more than good enough to bat 6

Erm, no. Morgan's averaging 38 and people are calling for him to be dropped.. Collingwood averaged just over 40. The fact is that to average mid thirties, as a specialist batsman, and to bat in the top 7, just isn't good enough. Bresnan's average has been inflated by two 90's and a 50. Bresnan belongs in the "bowler who can contribute to a total" category.

If you ask a bowler who they'd like to face out of these six... Cook, KP, Prior, Bell, Trott or Bresnan, who do you think they'd pick? Bresnan would not get into the side as a specialist batsman.

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by wadey101 Wed 17 Aug 2011, 5:49 pm


Erm, no. Morgan's averaging 38 and people are calling for him to be dropped.. Collingwood averaged just over 40. The fact is that to average mid thirties, as a specialist batsman, and to bat in the top 7, just isn't good enough. Bresnan's average has been inflated by two 90's and a 50. Bresnan belongs in the "bowler who can contribute to a total" category.

If you ask a bowler who they'd like to face out of these six... Cook, KP, Prior, Bell, Trott or Bresnan, who do you think they'd pick? Bresnan would not get into the side as a specialist batsman.[/quote]

Obviously he wouldn't get in the side as a specialist batsman. That doesn't stop him being an alrounder though.

Kallis wouldn't get in the SA side as just a bowler, Watson wouldn't get in the Australian side as just a bowler, Vettori wouldn't get in the NZ side as just a batsman, Flintoff wouldn't have even got in the England side as just a batsman.....it doesn't mean they are/were not alrounders.

And you can't say his average has been inflated by two 90's and a 50! Of course getting big scores is going to inflate your average, that's what it is all about!

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by Liam_Main Wed 17 Aug 2011, 7:18 pm

Also got to think a couple of low scores will plummet his average down, doubt he'll get his maiden Century at the Oval but will get it sooner or later. A century will prove him as a genuine all-rounder.
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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by Smile Wed 17 Aug 2011, 7:32 pm

A bowler who can bat. Broad is a better batsman and the allrounder tag would be to nice for him.

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 17 Aug 2011, 7:56 pm

Makrish wrote:
cricketfan90 wrote:bresnan is defintiely an allrounder, even averging mid thirties is good enough to bat 7 in a test, and prior is more than good enough to bat 6

Erm, no. Morgan's averaging 38 and people are calling for him to be dropped.. Collingwood averaged just over 40. The fact is that to average mid thirties, as a specialist batsman, and to bat in the top 7, just isn't good enough. Bresnan's average has been inflated by two 90's and a 50. Bresnan belongs in the "bowler who can contribute to a total" category.

If you ask a bowler who they'd like to face out of these six... Cook, KP, Prior, Bell, Trott or Bresnan, who do you think they'd pick? Bresnan would not get into the side as a specialist batsman.

Dont all the current 7's of the top sides average in the 30's? Bresnan is up amongst them for sure on performnaces so far.
Prior would get in most sides top 6 as a specialist batsman, hes averaging 45 now (unlike Bresnan after nough games for t to be a genuine average)...way more than any other keeper and a mile ahead of the average test 7.
Yes he wouldnt get in the side as a specialist batsman, but its only poor sides who simply cant find 6 good batsmen and 4 good bowlers who have players whod get in theirs as either. The true all round tests players simply does not exist anymore.

If you ask a bowler who they'd like to face out of these seven... Young, Chigumbura, Rahim, Baugh, A Akmal, Smith, Bresnan who do you think they'd pick? Indeed he averages more than any test 7 out there, whilst i accept its not a true refelction of his batting by any strectch hes as good as most out there...yet hes playing 8 because englands side has 6 significantly better batters without even considering Broad.
Its a huge plus for England that they can bat Prior, Bresnan, Broad and Swann a position higher than they would in most teams because their bowlers are capable of taking 10 wckets without support form part time nothing players. It does give them the option of a bowler heavy lineup if they feel the and to hav two attacking spinners in the sub continent tours and mak up forth lack of seerious bowling in current the top 7.

In ODIs England still have a problem, the part time variation bowlers are far more important and they dont have an out and out destructive strike bowler like Malinga either. The balance of the sde their is the complte oppsoite, they never seem to have enough bowling or batting.




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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by m@tt Wed 17 Aug 2011, 9:15 pm

People shouldn't read too much into Bresnan's batting average. He's only played a few games, so it will drop, just as it did with Swann and Broad who both averaged 40+ early in their Test careers. But if it averages out to above 30 than that would be great.
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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by Liam_Main Wed 17 Aug 2011, 9:20 pm

Bresnan plays proper Cricket shots and does at times look like a complete Batsman. If he can go on to make big scores remains to be seen though.
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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by robbo277 Thu 18 Aug 2011, 12:49 am

Bresnan's first class average is under 30, so it's likely that his test average will drop over time, but he's a good batsman and a very good 8. We're blessed in that we have 3 great "number 8" batsman in Bresnan, Broad and Swann who are all good enough bowlers to get in on that merit alone. I don't think we should be pushing them too far up the order.

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 18 Aug 2011, 8:42 am

I agree that theres no reason to push Bresnan and Broad up the order whilst the 4 man unit is more than functional, the point is that with the trio of batting bowlers and a genuine batsman keeper England could take the option if they wished to whilst still batting as deep as other test sides.
There will be a question in the siub conbtinent of how to get two spinners in the side, do you go with Panessar and Swann in a genuine 5 man attack or rely on the cant bat cant bowl option of Patel (The English Steve Smith?). With the batting depth either is an option, but with the lack of a Watson/Kallis England cant get away with just two specialist seamers.
If Tremlett were in ahead of Bresnan I wouldnt be comforatble with the 5 man specialist attack and a second spinner would have to be Patel (Rashid etc being out of the picture currently), Bresnan gives the flexibility of picking a more attacking spinner like Panessar.

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by Corporalhumblebucket Thu 18 Aug 2011, 8:54 am

Perhaps the best way to look at them both together and ask the question: is the combined effect of having Bresnan and Broad better than if we instead had a (rare) 100% genuine world class all rounder plus a good bowler who was a rabbit with the bat.

At the moment the B & B combo I would say is at least as good as that in most circumstances. The answer might be different if we facing bowling attack with the likes of McGrath and Warne in their prime.....

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by dummy_half Thu 18 Aug 2011, 9:54 am

A few points

Agree with a lot of what PSW says a couple of posts above - regardless of whether you consider Bresnan and Broad as genuine all-rounders, both are very good for number 8 batsmen, so playing them at 7 and 8 with Swann (who would be 8 in a weaker lower order) at 9 would be good enough to allow the selection of another specialist bowler (particularly a second frontline spin bowler for matches in Sri Lanka).

Contrary to Wadey's comment above, I think for several years Kallis would have been selected as South Africa's 3rd or 4th choice seamer even if his batting was of lower order standard (say number 8 or 9 quality), so definitely fulfils any criteria of being a top class all rounder. His highest ranking as a bowler was #6 in the world, so he was much more than just a fill-in guy.

m@tt is also correct in that you shouldn't read too much into averages (especially batting averages, where a high proportion of not outs can have a big effect) early in careers - Bresnan's first class average is in the upper 20s, and I believe he has yet to score a first class 100 (although noting that Stuart Broad has also never scored a County Championship 100, his only FC century being the 169 at Lords against Pakistan) - as such though, I wouldn't discribe Bresnan as a front line batsman, but more as someone you'd want to see chipping in with scores in the 25-50 range on a semi-regular basis.

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by robbo277 Thu 18 Aug 2011, 10:30 am

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:Perhaps the best way to look at them both together and ask the question: is the combined effect of having Bresnan and Broad better than if we instead had a (rare) 100% genuine world class all rounder plus a good bowler who was a rabbit with the bat.

At the moment the B & B combo I would say is at least as good as that in most circumstances. The answer might be different if we facing bowling attack with the likes of McGrath and Warne in their prime.....

The good thing about Bresnan, Broad and Swann is only one of them has to come off for it to work. If just one of them can stick in with someone like Prior they are all capable of 100 run partnerships. So if Bresnan and Broad get good ones early up, Swann can come in and there is still no panic. If we had 1 great batsman and 3 rabbits, as soon as our number 8 was out our established batsman would have to start swinging from the hip or protecting the strike.

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by Guest Thu 18 Aug 2011, 1:20 pm

bresnan is more of an allrounder than broad

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by Liam_Main Thu 18 Aug 2011, 1:22 pm

I think Bresnan and Broad will have similar batting careers.
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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by Guest Thu 18 Aug 2011, 2:20 pm

bresnan will be crucial in the sub contient, with his ability to reverse swing the older ball

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by We Are Number 1!!! Thu 18 Aug 2011, 10:04 pm

Sorry if we are talking about world class reverse swing bowlers, then Bresnan isn't close. Look at Steyn, Khan, Lee, Malinga etc doing it and they are different class.

You need to factor in, reversing the Duke ball is easier than reversing the SG or Kookaburra ball.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 18 Aug 2011, 11:29 pm

We Are Number 1!!! wrote:Sorry if we are talking about world class reverse swing bowlers, then Bresnan isn't close. Look at Steyn, Khan, Lee, Malinga etc doing it and they are different class.

You need to factor in, reversing the Duke ball is easier than reversing the SG or Kookaburra ball.

Right and Bresnan and Anderson will get destroyed on the flat tracks with the kookie down under....oh right we've already been through this havent we. Bresnan had no trouble getting the ball to swing and took his 11 wickets at a shade under 20.

Bresnan isnt an out and out swing bowler like Anderson though, Steyn is something special in the modern game but the English guys are developing a range of bowling and the ability to cause problems in pretty much any conditions. Lee Malinga and Khan cant manage test cricket at all without falling to pieces.

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by Guest Fri 19 Aug 2011, 1:43 pm

lol looks like bresnan may be needed to get a 100

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by ShankyCricket Fri 19 Aug 2011, 1:49 pm

We Are Number 1!!! wrote:Sorry if we are talking about world class reverse swing bowlers, then Bresnan isn't close. Look at Steyn, Khan, Lee, Malinga etc doing it and they are different class.

You need to factor in, reversing the Duke ball is easier than reversing the SG or Kookaburra ball.


You seem very Anti English.
Bresnan is a MUCH BETTER Test bowler than Malinga.

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by We Are Number 1!!! Sun 21 Aug 2011, 3:23 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
We Are Number 1!!! wrote:Sorry if we are talking about world class reverse swing bowlers, then Bresnan isn't close. Look at Steyn, Khan, Lee, Malinga etc doing it and they are different class.

You need to factor in, reversing the Duke ball is easier than reversing the SG or Kookaburra ball.

Lee Malinga and Khan cant manage test cricket at all without falling to pieces.
Lee 300 Test wickets
Khan 270 Test wickets
Malinga 100 Test wickets

Whilst Malinga only has 100 wickets, SL is a tough place to bowl fast.

The other two have 100s of wickets, so it blows your theory out the water.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sun 21 Aug 2011, 6:09 pm

We Are Number 1!!! wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
We Are Number 1!!! wrote:Sorry if we are talking about world class reverse swing bowlers, then Bresnan isn't close. Look at Steyn, Khan, Lee, Malinga etc doing it and they are different class.

You need to factor in, reversing the Duke ball is easier than reversing the SG or Kookaburra ball.

Lee Malinga and Khan cant manage test cricket at all without falling to pieces.
Lee 300 Test wickets
Khan 270 Test wickets
Malinga 100 Test wickets

Whilst Malinga only has 100 wickets, SL is a tough place to bowl fast.

The other two have 100s of wickets, so it blows your theory out the water.

In th past. Now they cant. We are talking about th situation now, not the past. Malinga has retired from test cricket, Khan is regulalry getting injured and close to being shot in the format. Lee had to retire from tests years ago because of the physical demands. The reason Malingsa has 100 wickets isnt because Sri Lanka is tough, its because he hasnt played that many tests due to injury and retiring very early from that format as a result.
In test cricket its only Khan ouyt of your list whos still playing, and he may have to give it up. Out of the current test players Brsnans up there in the top tier of current fast bowlers, he wouldnt ahv such great figures in Australia from reversing the kooabura ball if he wasnt able to do it. Its hardly suprising he doesnt have 300 wickets when hes only got 12 caps.

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by Guest Sun 21 Aug 2011, 9:29 pm

he wont be needed to get a ton in this test lol

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Post by Raymond Mon 22 Aug 2011, 12:43 am

We are Number 1 are you lebron's homie? I remember lebron using the term blows your theory out the water when we was having a debate.

By the why you don't blow his theory out of the water as malinga was a shocking test bowler when you don't need to score runs so can just keep his yorkers out and he went for nearly 4 an over Tim is a much much better test bowler than malinga.

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by LondonTiger Mon 22 Aug 2011, 7:47 am

dummy_half wrote: Bresnan's first class average is in the upper 20s, and I believe he has yet to score a first class 100 (although noting that Stuart Broad has also never scored a County Championship 100, his only FC century being the 169 at Lords against Pakistan) -


Timtom has a couple of championship hundreds for Yorkshire.

I accept his first class average is nothing special, with either bat or ball, but some mitigating factors:

He started playing in the Yorkshire first team at 16.
He has improved out-of-sight in the last couple of years - but plays less and less for yorkshire.
When batting for Yorkshire he rarely has the time to build an innings as the batsmen with him are rather worse than those in the England team.


After 10 tests he currently has nearly 400 runs at better than 40 and 40 wickets at around 25. Oh and if we win today England have won every Test he has played in. Pretty good start to a career I woudl say.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 22 Aug 2011, 8:56 am

LondonTiger wrote:
dummy_half wrote: Bresnan's first class average is in the upper 20s, and I believe he has yet to score a first class 100 (although noting that Stuart Broad has also never scored a County Championship 100, his only FC century being the 169 at Lords against Pakistan) -


Timtom has a couple of championship hundreds for Yorkshire.

I accept his first class average is nothing special, with either bat or ball, but some mitigating factors:

He started playing in the Yorkshire first team at 16.
He has improved out-of-sight in the last couple of years - but plays less and less for yorkshire.
When batting for Yorkshire he rarely has the time to build an innings as the batsmen with him are rather worse than those in the England team.


After 10 tests he currently has nearly 400 runs at better than 40 and 40 wickets at around 25. Oh and if we win today England have won every Test he has played in. Pretty good start to a career I woudl say.

But Brett Lee used to be a reasonably good test player so you must be wrong.

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Tim Bresnan Empty Re: Tim Bresnan

Post by robbo277 Mon 22 Aug 2011, 10:21 am

I think Bresnan should be our night-watchman as well. His defensive technique is at least equal to Anderson's, but then he can open up in the morning and look to score some runs. I think it would be a good role for Bres to take.

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