LV Cup - success or failure? Reform needed?

Simple question - Do you like the LV Cup?

If not what should be done instead? Should it be scrapped? Should it be reformed?

Personally I believe that the LV cup is hugely devalued and is used by most clubs simply for academy purposes. I am unsure exactly what should be done though.

Any thoughts?

beshocked wrote:Simple question - Do you like the LV Cup?

If not what should be done instead? Should it be scrapped? Should it be reformed?

Personally I believe that the LV cup is hugely devalued and is used by most clubs simply for academy purposes. I am unsure exactly what should be done though.

Any thoughts?

I don't particularly care for the competition, I confess - wouldn't mind seeing the A/academy players of premiership sides playing in an expanded B&I Cup comp (jeebus, have I been smoking the same stuff as Portnoy?!)

The B & I competition isn't a knockout though is it?

I think the LV or whatever competition needs to be a straight knockout. Home/Away could be picked by flip of the coin.

The competition should be modelled on rugby league's challenge cup and football's carling and FA cup.

It seems to change every year with different teams giving it a different emphasis - It needs a revamp IMO as it already looks past it's sell by date.

Dump it. Cramps an already busy schedule.

During the six nations the BBC pundits were saying that the LV cup should be played during the weekends that the six nations and autumn internationals are on which would reduce the impact on clubs like Northampton who suffer in the league when their internationals are missing.

I don't think it's too bad an idea really... nobody seems to care too much about the cup anyway so it wouldn't really devalue it. It would also make the AP more meaningful as the teams will have, more or less, their strongest teams playing every week. It could even lead to scrapping the play-off system as the team at the top won't have gained an unfair advantage during the internationals.

If I recall the clubs/regions get paid a decent amount of money for the competition. I don't recall the numbers, but I think it is significant monies.

If I am wrong, then the whole thing should be scrapped/revamped. Without the revenue, its not remotely worth the wear and tear on our players, support staff, grounds and so on.

It is played during internationals now. Loads of young players have cut their teeth in it and shown they're up to the standard to be tried in the Jeff. Most teams don't put out anything near their full sides anyway. Leave it.

beshocked wrote:The B & I competition isn't a knockout though is it?

I think the LV or whatever competition needs to be a straight knockout. Home/Away could be picked by flip of the coin.

The competition should be modelled on rugby league's challenge cup and football's carling and FA cup.

Beshocked, no, from memory, it's pools to get thru to QFs, then knockout, not that dissimilar in structure to the LV= Cup, I think (and at least the teams in a particular pool play all the other teams in the same pool, rather than bizarrely all the teams in another completely separate pool!)? At the moment obviously the LV= is restricted to prem Eng and Welsh regions - if it could incorporate the B&I cup, then you'd open it up to Eng prem A/academy vs Eng championship vs scot prem clubs vs Welsh prem clubs vs Irish prov A/academy teams, which would produce games I'd much rather see - might be too expensive tho

aslongasbut100 it sounds like a logistical nightmare! A simple knockout sounds more fun in my opinion.

hammerofthunor I understand what the point of the competition is and can understand your point of view but don't you think it would be better if teams actually wanted to win the LV cup?

The LV cup used to be worth winning before it's current format.

I would actually copy the concepts used in league.

Give a trophy to the team that are the league winners but the playoff winners would still be the main trophy.

The LV cup could take a similar format to the Challenge Cup. It would be a great opportunity for the smaller clubs to get a shot at the big time in my opinion.

Why don't they have the LV cup for all those teams that are not in any european competition - Maybe that would give it more meaning. That could include the 2nd tier sides from the respective countrys and still give the so called minnows a crack at some of the more estabished clubs. Something needs to happen?

beshocked wrote:aslongasbut100 it sounds like a logistical nightmare! A simple knockout sounds more fun in my opinion.

hammerofthunor I understand what the point of the competition is and can understand your point of view but don't you think it would be better if teams actually wanted to win the LV cup?

The LV cup used to be worth winning before it's current format.

I would actually copy the concepts used in league.

Give a trophy to the team that are the league winners but the playoff winners would still be the main trophy.

The LV cup could take a similar format to the Challenge Cup. It would be a great opportunity for the smaller clubs to get a shot at the big time in my opinion.

Travel would be complicated no question, beshocked, but wouldn't you love to see a pool comprising, for example, Sarries A, Cornish Pirates, Neath, Munster A & Hawick? I'd personally be happy to see Exe A, London Scottish, Llanelli, Ulster A & Glasgow Hawks - great series of games possible with all the potential combinations

Total waste of space in an already over crowded fixture list

Ditch it

Having finally won the cup I now no longer care for it!

But, it does serve a purpose for developing younger players, however, I feel it should return to its roots as an Egnlish cup and include lower league players. A lot of top level players cut their teeth in the lower leagues and giving those teams the opportunity to play against Jeff sides will help develop players - which can only be good for England.

I would also stick with a HC spot awarded to the winners as that is a very good incentive to win it!

The B&I cup is the way to go ditch the LV its rubbish. Straight knock out is fun yes but not great for player development.

I was a fan of the Powergen (and EDF) Cups when they became the Anglo-Welsh Cup, as they were real competitions. Since they moved them to during the internationals I have not been too much of a fan, especially now Sky have the coverage (as I onlyhave freeview). That said I do think that the competition does have its merits as a developement tournament for the second string sides for the Jeff and Welsh sides.

In it's current format it makes no sense whatsoever for the Welsh regions. All it means is that they have to fit in at least 4 more games than the other teams in their league which stretches their playing resources as they also all suffer heavily with international call ups. There is also no incentive for them to win it as they cannot be reward with Heineken Cup qualification for doing so.

The AP clubs rarely put out full strengths sides meaning that the quality is not quite of the highest standard, and the fact that the way the pools/fixtures are done means that potentially a team could win 4 out of 4 games and not qualify for the knockout stages while a team that wins 1 out of 4 could qualify ahead of them. It is farcical.

For me, combining it with the B & I Cup and turning them into a straight knockout competition would be the best answer.

Pete - from my point of view the LV is good for the regions, it gives the younger fringe players a shot at playing in their regional colours and a decent shot at pushing for the first team. Good showing in the LV has given Andy Fenby, Ben Morgan (i believe) and Scott Williams some game time in the Scarlets shirt before they properly broke into the first side. Also it is not too much different from the Irish sides having their 'A' team in the B&I Cup. So if anything it is better for the Welsh regions than the Irish sides, as the regions are playing against better quality oposition (genreally) in the LV than the Irish are playing against in the B&I.

If the LV was ditched you would find that the same fringe players would just end up playing for a regional club side (Cardiff, Ponty, Neath, Swansea etc) in the B&I cup instead so the playing resources would still be as stretched.

The LV= was kind to the Dragons last year. It showed the Dragons that Matthew Jones could almost be relied upon as a stand in for Tovey and it allowed us to ease Bearman and Martyn Thomas back from injury, as well as blooding some new players. I'd keep it if I'm honest, even though the setup is a bit of a farce.

Dump it - Bring back the Tetly Bitter Cup (or similar domestic cup competition if you must)



Or, as others have suggested - enlarge the B&I Cup and chuck in premiership A squads for an enlarged competition with more pools. Would also raise the profile of the competition as a whole.

propdavid_london wrote:

Or, as others have suggested - enlarge the B&I Cup and chuck in premiership A squads for an enlarged competition with more pools. Would also raise the profile of the competition as a whole.

I think that would be a terrific idea. That would provide exposure for a huge group of players and inject new energy and purpose into the competition. The B&I, which I like, needs a little more juice in it anyway, and this might be the answer.

enlargeing the BandI cup works for me Adding the Prem 'A' sides would be fantastic to it

An issue of it would be do Wales, enter welsh prem teams or regional 'A' teams. Regional 'A' teams would prob be best for player development to progress to the first team, but how would clubs react to losing there place in the BandI cup.

Scotland should be entering 'A' teams as well.

you need a pool stage to make it worthwhile for everybody, in terms of player development, but i'd have these as small pools, to keep travel cost down), prob 3 teams play each other home and away, top team in each qualifies for straight knockout.

don't think numbers allow this to work properaly

would have 36 teams, thats 12 groups of 3.
12 teams come out, knockout stage 6 teams left, knockout again to get 3 teams.

the remaing 3 play each other home and away in a mini league to get the winner

So. The B&I Cup would include Irish Regional A's, Premiership A's, Championship sides, Scott's Prem teams.

Do you include Welsh regional A's or Welsh Prem sides? Presumably, either way Welsh region A's would get game time with their dual registered (region feeder) clubs.



That sounds like a good competition - one that is highly marketable (even call it the LV B&I cup if the sponsorship has to stay). I rekon that would gain a lot of interest - more than the LV or B&I on their own.

More Groups/Pools would mean that there werent any more fixtures for teams to play - addressing the fixture congestion issue.

Kingshu wrote:enlargeing the BandI cup works for me Adding the Prem 'A' sides would be fantastic to it

An issue of it would be do Wales, enter welsh prem teams or regional 'A' teams. Regional 'A' teams would prob be best for player development to progress to the first team, but how would clubs react to losing there place in the BandI cup.

Sorry Kingshu - you got there just before me with the ? about Welsh teams. Good point re: Scots sides

Scotland could possiblty have the two 'A' teams, plus maybe reintroduce Gael Force as a team formed from the best players in the Scottish Hydro Electric Premiership that arn't part of the Scottish Rugby academy.